Looking for possible cause: IPA not at all hoppy

[unclebrazzie]

Hi y'all,

I've tried my hand at brewing a couple IPAs in the past few months, but two things keep coming up whenever I do so:

1) lack of hoppiness. Try as I may, none of my IPAs ever turn out hoppy. Bitter, sure, but never hoppy. Generally speaking, I provide about half my IBU as FWH, the rest as medium-to-late additions (T-30' at the very earliest, mostly t-10'). Even with a shovelful of dry hops, the best I get is a whiff of hops.
Example in case: a Jaipur-inspired IPA based on the recipe in Mitch Steele's IPA.

1 tsp gyspsum at start of boil

11g Columbus FWH
10g Centennial FWH
6g Amarillo FWH
10g Caolumbus 30 min boil
10g Centennial 30 min boil
6g Amarillo 30 min boil
40g Columbus At turn off and steeped for 30 min
40g Centennial At turn off and steeped for 30 min
30g Amarillo At turn off and steeped for 30 min

Dryhopped with 50g of Amarillo because after a week in Secondary, this tasted (and smelled) like a banana-laden abbey rather than an IPA.

After two weeks in the bottle, hardly a trace of hops can be detected. Sure, there's a bit of it, but nowhere near IPA-levels, and nowhere near as much as I'd epxected with these additions.

2) nearly all of my "hoppy" ales starting at 1.060 or less display a harsh, biting bitterness which is slightly unpleasant when not pronounced, and utterly unpalatable when more pronounced. Resiny and astringent, almost like biting into a pine cone. I have no idea where this is coming from, but it was most noticable in a low ABV hoppy hefeweizen I brewed which is utterly undrinkable. 40g of (again) Amarillo dry hop in a 1.045 SG - 1.006 FG brew (60-40 wheat-pale)

So, my questions:
What's causing my lack of hoppiness in 1) and what's causing the unpleasant bitterness in 2) ?

Thanks in advance!

 

[jceg316]

I had a similar problem, any IPAs I made came out tasting really harsh and bitter. If you leave the beers for months (6 or so) this apparently helps clear them up. One really bitter batch I have left for about 3 months and it does taste a lot nicer than it originally did.

There are two issues which people said could be causing bitterness in my beers: the hops and water. Interestingly, I also used Centennial and Columbus and these create quite a harsh bitterness. It's suggested I should use Citra and/or Galaxy as these are a bit smoother.

My water's alkaline levels are too damn high, meaning my mash is not acidic enough causing tannins to be extracted from the grains. This, along with using Centennial and Columbus create the harsh bitterness. This was all pretty recent though and I've not had any time to make another batch with different hops and treated water. If you are in the UK, Asda Smart Price water is supposedly really good for IPAs, and at 8.5p/litre it's not breaking the bank for a 5 gal brew.

If it's any use, here are some threads I started about my beer being bitter: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/my-beer-comes-out-way-too-bitter-483351/

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=49664

 

[b-boy]

I have the same issue. IPAs and hoppy APAs seem flat. I'm pretty sure your water is the culprit. Do you have a water profile you could post?

I've been able to improve the problem by dilluting my city water with RO water and adding some water additions (gypsum, CaCl, Epsom Salts, etc..). It's better, but still not perfect. I want perfect. My next IPA will be brewed with 100% store bought water for a real comparison.

I just picked up a pH meter, so I can now at least get a better idea of what's really going on inside the mash tun.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Try a tsp or two of gypsum, It will not let the hops hide so much, but a water calculator is the best route. Brewers friend is good. Also you can get a good test by buying an aquarium GH and KH test kit and plugging the numbers into the calculator.

 

[JonM]

I think your first step is to look at the water you're using. As noted above, a water profile would help us to figure out what's going on here.

Also, I always have to add acid to my IPA mash to get it to the proper pH. Are you making any kind of pH adjustments? If you're not, your pH could be too high, resulting in poor flavor.

 

[BreezyBrew]

You seem to have a number of issues going on here. First it sounds like your mash pH is too high. Buy a good pH Meter and calibrate it. Get a Ward Lab water report and use bru'in water.

Second is your yeast. Banana generally means you're fermenting too high. If the yeast strain you are using is expressing a lot of fruitiness then this will over power the hops. Use a dry strain and ferment at the correct temp.

I would try less hops at the beginning. When I first wort hopped all my beers were overly harsh. Now I just hop burst and don't even use a bittering edition.

Gypsum will help, but not if you're pH is too high.

 

[Minbari]

what jumped out at me was the banana comment. what temp do you Ferm at? would that make a difference in how the dry hopping processes?

 

[unclebrazzie]

Thanks y'all, sound like reasonable culprits.

An analysis of my local water supplier is found here (in Dutch only, sorry for that). Values in the next-to-last column labelled AWW-PST.

Relevant parameters I know (not enough) about are
Sulfate: 52 ppm
Na+: 33 ppm
Ca++: 63 ppm
Hardness: 18.8°F or 188 ppm CaCO3
pH: 7.9

Water quality does sound like the issue at hand here, even if I've not had any problems when brewing other styles.

Fermentation temp, while definitely an issue, is not something which I'd expect to have such a dramatic impact on hop presence. Sure, banana and fenolics will interfere with the hops, but not by rendering them harsh and unpleasant; I'd expect more of a flavour clash if this were the issue at hand. That being said: I've recently acquired a fridge which I'll convert into a fermentor

Next purchase: a pH meter. Remind me again which value I should be aiming for?

Hops of choice: my first idea was that maybe the Amarillo dryhops were to blame. Since I've tasted plenty IPAs with Ama in dryhop which were perfectly drinkable, I'm disregarding this as a possible cause until further notice. Ditto the Cent/Colum combo. Sure, they may be particularly sensitive to pH, but if half the brewing world can use them in an IPA, then by StArndoldus so can I

 

[unclebrazzie]

Follow-up: I entered relevant values in EZBrew. Mash pH came out at 5.89, when optimal would be 5.4-5.6. Doesn't seem that far off, but then again, pH is logarithmic.
With the two tsp of gypsum I added to the boil, my Ca++ and Sulfate would be way above optimal.
Looks like I should be using less CaSO4 (1 tsp at most) and about 5ml of (lactic or scaled other) acid to lower the pH.

Make sense?

 

[grathan]

The 5ml acid sounds about right. I think that will take care of the astringency. Might wanna add a ml or two to the sparge water as well.

I don't know what beers you are comparing yours to, but that recipe doesn't look all that hoppy.

 

[JonM]

What values do you get when you add the gypsum? Bru'n Water's pale ale profile uses 300 ppm of sulfate, so for a hoppy beer, you're not using excessive sulfate if you're below that.

 

[unclebrazzie]

I don't know what beers you are comparing yours to, but that recipe doesn't look all that hoppy.

The recepe was based on the Thronbridge Jaipur recipe iin Mitch Steele's IPA book, only with different hops (Ama instead of Ahtanum if memory serves).

What values do you get when you add the gypsum?

With 10g CaSO4 added to the sparge water (when it was actually at boil), I get 163ppm Ca++ and 298 ppm SO4--
Slightly over in terms of Calcium, spot on in terms of sulfate.

 

[ejf063]

Adjust your hop schedule. +1 to hop bursting, above. 30 mins is essentially a bittering burst. If you hop bursted this, ie move every hop addition to 20 mins and less, u will get bitterness with a nice hop flavor and aroma. That sweet spot for flavor, and aroma are additions at 15 mins down to zero (including hop stand). Give it a try, I did and my beers are super flavorful and smell really nice.

 

[JonM]

Are you adding minerals to the mash water?

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Agreed on above recommendations. I'd try to decide on how man IBU's you're shooting for, and accomplish those almost completely through FWH or 60 min boil addition. Then perhaps layer a little bit at 30 and/or 10/15 mins for some complexity. The longer they boil, the more bitterness, so don't go too crazy on mid-additions. Flameout, hopburst, and dry hops will give you some good hoppiness. Again, I'm not opposed to mid additions to layer in a little something "extra" - but make sure and use your brewing software to ensure a 30 min or 15 min doesn't add to much to the IBU's to keep the bitterness in check. Even a flameout addition could add some bitterness if it's not chilled quickly. With hopbursting, I'll chill to 170-180 and then throw hops in and let them go for around 20-30 mins, then chill the rest of the way. (I've never needed to adjust water - but it seems you've it some good advice on that one.). Good luck!!


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