LME and DME why?

[Alamo_Beer]

Why do some recipes call for both liquid extract and dry extract?

I just ordered the ingredients for a mild ale http://byo.com/feature/1279.html (last one)

It calls for 3lb of lme and 1lb of dme....I ordered what it said I'm just wondering why?

Couldn't you just use a bit more LME how much I'm not sure of but would this change anything?

Thanks guys

 

[homebrewer_99]

You're right...if they are both the same, i.e., light LME and DME, then there is not difference except in the weight department. With different weights in malt you'll have to re-calculate your hops.

Translate it with a grain of your own intelligence. Could be that's all they had on hand when they brewed it.

Write this down...you'll need it in the future:

1 lb grain = .75 lb LME = .6 lb DME

 

[Alamo_Beer]

cool.....I'm at work so I just wrote it on a post-it....sweet

I ordered both extra light extracts....didn't say in the recipe what color (IE:amber, pale, extra light...) So I figured extra light would be good for both.

thanks

 

[the_bird]

A lot of extract recipes that I've see with both DME and LME, the amount of the LME is usually equal to the amount that you would get in one or two "standard" sized cans. You'll see DME added if some additional extract is needed, but not enough for a full extra can of LME. It's easier to save a partial package of DME than LME.

And yeah, I know, you can buy LME in bulk, which would make this point moot - but I would have to believe most people buy LME by the can.

 

[poetic_entropy]

Spokane here and all is well the the zags

well sort of

..........

 

[Alamo_Beer]

makes since....AHB (where I ordered from) sells by the LB so I ordered 3lb of LME and 1lb of DME.

If I did this next time would it be wise to order like 4lb of LME bc it calls for 3.3lb in the first place or 3lb and 8oz..

Thanks guys

 

[the_bird]

Spokane here and all is well the the zags

well sort of

..........

How ARE they doing this year? Last I heard, they were sucking pretty bad (I don't follow college hoops until March).

 

[homebrewer_99]

...makes sense...If I did this next time would it be wise to order like 4lb of LME bc it calls for 3.3lb in the first place or 3lb and 8oz...

Uh, No Beavis!!! It does not make sense to order 4 lbs of LME...OK, if you are financially unable and you're on the pay-as-you-brew-plan.

When you mail order LME you are paying to ship WATER...DME is powder and relatively lesser weight.

Translate the LME to DME and then order what you need. You may want to consider bulk also.

I purchase my DME in 55 lb boxes for about $140 (about $2.55/lb not counting shipping).

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Thanks butthead...

at ahb the shipping is a flat 5.99

and their lme doesn't get that much cheaper if you buy in bulk.. only 2.25 per pound when you buy 40lb compared to 2.49 per lb normally.

and DME is 3.99 no matter how much you order.....

Plus I am sorta on the pay-as-you-brew plan (stupid college job)

Where do you buy in bulk from?

Thanks

 

[homebrewer_99]

Uh... midwestsupplies.com

I got you to say "Butthead" hehhehheh...

 

[Rhoobarb]

When I did extacts, I would use LME only if it was really specific to the recipe and a specific brand was called for. For instance, I did a bock using Bierkeller LME - an imported German extract. I figured it was chosen b/c it was malted from German grain - maybe a Pilsener. I did a cream ale and APA using an American LME - either Breiss or Northwestern - b/c they are made from American malt.

The only DME I see for sale in the LHBSs around here is Munton's from the UK. So, if I was doing any kind of beer British style of beer - IPA, Bitter, etc., I'd substitute DME for the LME using the same conversion formula HB99 gave you.

Not saying my way is the right way. In fact, IMHO, I think using all-DME will give you a cleaner tasting beer.

 

[Kadmium]

The reason you might sometimes use 2 types of *ME, is because more often then not, LME is comprised of water, malt and yes... dextrose! This issue has been discussed before, and the problem with 90% of LME is that they add refined sugar to reduce the costs of LME. You can ship a hell of a lot more LME with sugar in it, as you wont know. However, buy a bag of DME and all the refined sugar will settle in the bag, making it damn obvious its 50% sugar.

Secondly, DME is great for giving your brew a nice mouthfeel, as refined sugars like dextrose tend to make a beer watery, poor head retention etc etc. So using 3 cans of LME will NOT produce the same as 2 cans LME and how ever much DME, as the DME is there to aleviate some of the refined sugars in the LME and give you a nice body and head.

Then why not use all DME? most brewers do use DME and avoid LME purely for the fact that LME is prone to go stale, prone to have dextrose to thin the costs of the LME (no pun intended)... but! if you use all DME, you have to do a full boil, as DME is unhopped. Where as an LME can be hopped... so you use 2 cans of LME to get yourself the nice hopped flavour without having to do a full boil, and you use the DME (un hopped) just added to the ferment to give your beer a bit more character...

thats my 2 cents!

 

[McKBrew]

I used DME for the first time this weekend for my starter, then dumped the rest into my cream ale. Seems like it is way easier to work with. Once I get back to WA state and can buy a 3# bag for less than $13.00, or order in bulk I will probably switch to it exclusively.

My LHBS puts LME into plastic bags, and I never seem to be able to fully get it out. I'm probably being a bit anal, as I am sure there is only a couple of ounces left, but I hate to waste anything. Plus it comes out of a 55 gal drum and I wonder, since I rarely see anyone in the store how long a drum that big has been there.

 

[desiderata]

...if you use all DME, you have to do a full boil, as DME is unhopped...

I do partial boils using strictly DME all the time. I add the hops in the amount that the recipes call for and my beers have turned out great. In fact, that is the first time I've heard that before.

I prefer DME over LME for several reasons. The only one not mentioned so far, I think, is that trying to heat up or scrape every bit of LME out of the can into the brew pot is a PITA.

Didn't know about the sugar added to LME...interesting.

 

[dcbrewmeister]

thats my 2 cents!

That was more like a nickel or a dime - but you are correct. Especially about the "what" it adds to a brew.

 

[dcbrewmeister]

I do partial boils using strictly DME all the time. I add the hops in the amount that the recipes call for and my beers have turned out great. In fact, that is the first time I've heard that before.

I prefer DME over LME for several reasons. The only one not mentioned so far, I think, is that trying to heat up or scrape every bit of LME out of the can into the brew pot is a PITA.

Didn't know about the sugar added to LME...interesting.

You don't have to do a full boil, but not doing so will affect the color of your brew. BYO did a little test a couple of years ago - same recipe, different methods of boil, partial, full, split batch, topping off in the fermenter. All of the brews came out different colors - only the full boil came close to the color it was supposed to be, and even it was a tad darker.

 

[Kadmium]

sorry my mistake! got full boil mixed up meaning you need to boil the DME with hops did not mean to infer that you need to boil all 6 gallons at once hehe my bad! but yes, what DcBrewmeister said about doing full boils with DME WILL get you a more correct color. However late additions of DME will also achieve this, like at flame out. No need to really worry about a hotbreak, as most of those ingredients are eliminated during the malting process! LME is easy in the fact that you dump the can into fermenter, add hot water, stir then top up... EASY! DME is harder

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I have a couple of takes on it.

1. Most extract brewers in this forum seem to prefer dry malt extract over liquid. Yet, the two LHBS's I go to always want to sell LME. Most of the online ones seem to have a lot more LME than DME on their websites. Most extract recipes I see (not all, but most) seem to feature mostly LME.

2. Is this an accurate assessment: Tasters Choice instant powder vs. ground coffee: ick. Make that totally ick.

Frozen concentrate vs. fresh squeezed orange juice. Not as good as the fresh, but definitely not ick.

I could be way wrong, but to me it would seem that liquid malt extract is sort of concentrated wort that's sort of the same as orange juice concentrate. The dry would seem to be more like the instant coffee.

 

[ARV9673]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I have a couple of takes on it.

Frozen concentrate vs. fresh squeezed orange juice. Not as good as the fresh, but definitely not ick.

I could be way wrong, but to me it would seem that liquid malt extract is sort of concentrated wort that's sort of the same as orange juice concentrate. The dry would seem to be more like the instant coffee.

The OJ analogy might be more to the point, except you have to remember that you're going to make SCREWDRIVERS with this OJ, and who CARES if the OJ was fresh squeezed or not?
Just my 2cents about his 2 cents about the other guy's 2 cents...

 

[Kadmium]

2. Is this an accurate assessment: Tasters Choice instant powder vs. ground coffee: ick. Make that totally ick.

Frozen concentrate vs. fresh squeezed orange juice. Not as good as the fresh, but definitely not ick.

I could be way wrong, but to me it would seem that liquid malt extract is sort of concentrated wort that's sort of the same as orange juice concentrate. The dry would seem to be more like the instant coffee.

Completely the other way around. Think of it this way, LME is your instant coffee that has the milk powder and lots of cheap sugar added to it (IE, hop flavours = milk powder, cheap sugar = dextrose) its cheap, easy to ship, easy to sell, easy to use, and YES, it does get the job done.

DME is like ground coffee, you need a coffee machine, and you add your own milk (boil the hops with DME) this is more complex way of making "coffee" but still gets the job done relativley easy.

All grain, is like grinding the coffee yourself, frothing the milk yourself, and adding all sorts of flavouring syrups (specialty grains) to your "coffee"

DME is by far superior to LME, but LME is much easier to use, gets the job done well enough, but has more often then not cheap ingredients.

This is not to say that all LME is crap, for instance Coopers make a GREAT LME (the brewmasters range) which works very well. But, in the most part, the DME goes through less processing then the LME.

LME is essentially DME boiled up in a factory, they add the hops, boil it down, add a generous amount of dextrose to reduce costs, boost alc% etc etc, and yes it gets the job done, but its instant. If you take the time to boil your own DME, boil your own hops, and "froth your own milk" it will come out with a better body, flavour, feel and taste!

 

[Whelk]

As long as we're clear, not every company pre-hops their LME. William's Brewing doesn't, for example. Experienced with all this I ain't, but I did want to weigh in and toss that into the ring. Not all LME is pre-hopped, and I do think that while some companies will cut corners, I'm sure some are a little more quality-minded.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Thanks Whelk, I was going to say that myself.

I agree that canned prehopped extract would probubly be pretty bad (never used the prehopped stuff).

But wouldn't buying LME from like ausitnhomebrew or williamsbrewing or something be pretty much on par with dme?

 

[Kadmium]

Like I said, not all LME is crap

This is not to say that all LME is crap, for instance Coopers make a GREAT LME (the brewmasters range) which works very well. But, in the most part, the DME goes through less processing then the LME.

And no, not all LME comes pre-hopped but like I said, you just cannot garuntee that what you are getting in an LME is pure malt! DME you can see the malt sugar, and any other sugar will seperate in the bag and sink to the bottom, showing you sugar is added, where an LME... well it all looks the same

but, like I said, not all LME is going to be bad, the main thing to look out for with an LME is getting a FRESH AS POSSIBLE can, and a well trusted, proven result brand

 

[eriktlupus]

has anyone tried 'hoptech.com' for lme or other business?

 

[Torchiest]

The reason you might sometimes use 2 types of *ME, is because more often then not, LME is comprised of water, malt and yes... dextrose! This issue has been discussed before, and the problem with 90% of LME is that they add refined sugar to reduce the costs of LME. You can ship a hell of a lot more LME with sugar in it, as you wont know. However, buy a bag of DME and all the refined sugar will settle in the bag, making it damn obvious its 50% sugar.

...

thats my 2 cents!

Where did you get that information? I've never seen anything anywhere about dextrose in LME, and all the sites I've seen it on say it is 100% malt. Are you claiming they're lying about it?

 

[Kadmium]

I would not claim that they lie about it, but less reputable companies can and do thin their LMEs with dextrose, or other refined sugars.

 

[WOP31]

From every thing that I have seen or read the major difference in LME & DME is the fact that LME is 20% water. So you have to use more of it than DME (20% obviously). A couple other things i saw was that some people seemed to forget that Dried Malt Extract (DME) is just that Malt Extract. Just like LME they are essentially condenced wort (hopped or unhopped & they do make hopped dried extract). They are just processed differently. From reading the malt companies websites it looks like the Spray Dried malt is better as far as having the most fermentables, because of the drying method. What you really need to look at when dealing with dried malt is the moisture content. And for the boiling & color issues try putting your extract in the boil with 15 or 20 minutes left instead of boiling for the entire time. It helps to keep the sugars from carmalizing too much and turning brown. Really all you are trying to do with the extract is redisolve them back into your wort and sanitize it all.

Cheers

 

[Kadmium]

(hopped or unhopped & they do make hopped dried extract)

Not to bust your balls or anything, but the drying out process of the malt (DME) kills any hop oils extracted... so no, you dont get hopped DME unless its refrigerated and has hops IN it (like pieces)....

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

you dont get hopped DME unless its refrigerated and has hops IN it (like pieces)....

Would that not be pre-hopped?

 

[brewt00l]

I would not claim that they lie about it, but less reputable companies can and do thin their LMEs with dextrose, or other refined sugars.

Less reputable or more often than not?

Your previous posts seem to imply that the overwhelming majority of LME is mfg'd with dextrose and/or other refined sugars.

 

[WOP31]

Not to bust your balls or anything, but the drying out process of the malt (DME) kills any hop oils extracted... so no, you dont get hopped DME unless its refrigerated and has hops IN it (like pieces)....

You aren't busting my balls, you are just showing a lack of research. check this out.
http://www.muntons.com/homebeer/other-products/spraymalt_hopped_light.asp

Like i said in my original post, there are multiple ways to make DME, and with Spray drying you can make a hopped DME, but check the website and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. Also I don't understand how you could kill any hop oils, its oil, you cant "kill" oil. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by this.

Oh yeah, is hopped LME refrigerated?

Cheers

 

[Orfy]

It would be pointless producing DME from a hopped malt. The proccess would remove most if not all of the hop oils, not kill them.
The Hopped DME will most probably have some hop(stuff?) added after drying.
I'd stay clear and add my own for the best results.
The pre hopped malt extract is quite good if it's fresh but it should not be boiled or you'll drive off any hop aroma it has.

 

[homebrewer_99]

You do not have to do full boils with DME. I don't.

You do, however, have to do a 1 hour boil for the 30% (bittering) hop utilization.

The amount of malt you use to acquire the 30% is 1 gal of water to 1 lb of malt, giving you an OG of 1.040. Check Pappa Z's book for the chart.

I do late additions and add the remaining hops at 45 mins and just steep it for 15 mins.

One of my last experiments was a 30 min boil, but I doubled the hops which equals the same bitterness.

My last experiment I only used 1 oz of DME and boiled it for 45 mins, removed from the heat then added the remaining malt and a steep.

My next experiment will be approx 1 oz hops and NO malt in a 45 mins boil then I'll add all the malt and do a 15 mins steep.

 

[Robbw]

I still don't get why there is a mix of the same types of malt extracts but in dry or liquid form. I use DME and LME most of the time. My house ale is 1 3.3 lb can of Coopers Light LME and 2 lbs of DME. (plus the 3 # of grain that I steep at the beginning). Why not use all of LME OR DME? I haven't heard that Coopers has a bad reputation for quality.

I did try an all LME with 1.1 lbs LME translating into 1 lb DME. (trying to buy in bulk to save some money) But it was part of a double batch done outside on the keg-brewpot. Too much heat left a burnt carmel flavor in the batch (next time..full boils). But couldn't reach any conclusions on what would happen with all LME or DME. Certainly would make that particular beer easier.

 

[WOP31]

Orfy my point was only that they do produce a hopped extract. I have never used it. I only found it five minutes before making my original post when I was looking up information on the different type of Dried extracts, more specifically the different drying processes. As for hopped LME I have only used it once, six years ago on my first batch, so I can't attest to its quality. But hasn't it already been boiled? After all, Liquid Malt Extract is just a condenced wort, Reading up on the process of condensing, also from what I learned in culinary arts school, all they are doing is mashing grains to produce wort, then boiling the wort to make a reduction or syrup, so in all actuality you could call it malt reduction instead of extract.

Getting back to the original topic though, the diference lies mainly (in my opinion, not to upset any one) in the amount of fermentables in them and colors that they add to your brew. A lot has to do with personal preference too. My personal preference is to use all light DME, added in the last 20 minutes of the boil, so I can control the color better with my grains.

**Disclaimer**
The opinions expressed in this post, stated or implied, in no way reflect any type of truth or correct procedural way to do anything. The point of homebrewing is to do things the way that YOU want.

 

[Kadmium]

lol WOP31, and I was not trying to come off like a know it all, just trying to give a detailed explanation into the differences between LME and DME, because if there was no real difference except for one being a liquid and the other not, then there would not be such huge competiton

But, like I said, DME does not come pre-hopped, the spraymalt stuff that muntons sells is DME with hop extract added, because the drying of DME will neutralize out any hop oils and kill the aroma/flavour...

However, like Orfy stated, I would not touch it, as I prefer to control my own hop additions.


In relation to the guy who uses the coopers LME, I stated in a previous post that coopers make a GREAT LME. Coopers is an Australian company, and down under its a VERY big name with homebrew and just beer in general (coming from the beer drinking captial.. Australia!)

So yes, alot of *ME comes from preferance. With DME you can control your brew to a higher extent then LME, but I will still use LME on the odd occasion...

 

[WOP31]

All I was saying is that they DO make it (see my last post). I have never used it, don't plan on using it, and had only heard of it right before I posted. But the point was that I went out and took the time to research the topic before I posted about it. I feel that not enough people do that. And then they post misleading and incorect information. Google is a wonderful thing. And yes there are many diferences between LME & DME (again read my last post). I was just pointing out a few. and posting my opinion. I choose to use only light DME so I have more control over my color. I am sure that there are a ton of people out there that will tell me that I am doing that wrong too, but do I care, no.

Cheers

 

[Orfy]

All I was saying is that they DO make it (see my last post). I have never used it, don't plan on using it, and had only heard of it right before I posted. But the point was that I went out and took the time to research the topic before I posted about it. I feel that not enough people do that. And then they post misleading and incorect information. Google is a wonderful thing. And yes there are many diferences between LME & DME (again read my last post). I was just pointing out a few. and posting my opinion. I choose to use only light DME so I have more control over my color. I am sure that there are a ton of people out there that will tell me that I am doing that wrong too, but do I care, no.

Cheers

You are quite right along with the people stating that it's probably not a good idea to use the hopped dme. It's amazing how many people are to lazy to use google.

 

[Kadmium]

I guess I never would have guessed that DME comes pre-hopped! It was definatley a good find WOP31. I pick up my info from other brewers on this forum, as I feel that the experience of real brewers, who have brewed hundreds of batches and tried every experiment under the sun will collectivley have a greater knowledge then www.some_guys_page.on.how_awesome_my_stuff_is.com...

but yeah, orfy and yourself are correct, would not touch pre-hopped anything!

 

[EvilTOJ]

There's another reason why brewers would use LME and DME together in one recipe: COST! At my LHBS, DME is $3.69 a lb, and LME is $1.70 a lb. I only use LME when doing extract recipes.