So far I think I have managed to produce a rudimentary powdered malt ... now I would like to convert that to liquid malted extract. The only information I have found appears to require industrial equipment. So, is it possible to produce liquid malt extract on my kitchen top? If so, how? As I have said, I am able to make the powdered stuff, I just need to make it liquid. Perhaps this might be the same as the process I use to make sugarbeet molasses - namely 'reduction' ... could that be it?
Liquid malt extract - how?
- Thread starter lacto
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
You can make black LME on your stove.
If you want to make anything more pale, you'll need to boil at low temperature under a vacuum like that of the vastness of outer space. Unlikely on your stove.
If you want to make anything more pale, you'll need to boil at low temperature under a vacuum like that of the vastness of outer space. Unlikely on your stove.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
This article (direct link to PDF) has additional information. The "landing page" for the link to the article (and additional articles) is here (link).
Thank you BrewnWKopperKat for the pdf link ... but this does not tell me whether I can do all this in my home (my presumption is that I cannot). Perhaps I will simply treat the malted grain like I do with sugarbeet.
Do you mash* sugarbeet? It seems to me you're missing that all important step.
*Not mash as in mashed potatoes. Mash as in the enzymatic process of converting starch to sugar.
Interesting point. The last time I processed sugarbeet into molasses it resulted in a highly sugary thick syrup ... one that I would imagine would be favourable to any hungry yeast to give a brew the desired (in my view) result - a mildly alcoholic beverage. I didn't notice any cheeky enzimes in the vicinity. But you may have a point - so my question would be "are enzymes relevant in this example of processing beets in the preparation of alcohol?'
No, sugar beets contain sugar. Malt contains starches that need to be converted to sugars via enzymes. That's why mashing is important and that's also why your "powdery stuff" is not DME but powdery malt.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
Maybe someone will come along with an idea for in-home vacuum evaporation (or an alternative process that does the same thing)
So, am I correct in saying that the 'powdery stuff' needs to be heated in hot water (65C) for at least 1.5 hours then the enzymes will wake up and convert starch to sugar? Does that mean the lonnger in the hot solution the more starch is converted? I say that because I read that it can be up to 8 hours ... is that right?
Why would you want to make malt extract?
It would be similar to concentrating sugar from sugar beets, then diluting it again to ferment.
Here's are the major stages in making beer:
Grain ==> Malting ==> Malted Grain ==> Mill ==> Mash ==> Boil ==> Chill ==> Ferment ==> Package / Carbonate
In other words, you can brew directly with milled, malted grain. Why condense the resulting wort? Just brew with it right after the mash is completed.
The extracts (LME, DME) are made for brewers who do not have the capabilities or desire to do the mash.
LME = Liquid Malt Extract
DME =Dry Malt Extract.
DME is derived from LME through vacuum evaporation. DME is also called spray malt, due to very fine droplets of concentrated malt syrup being sprayed into a large vacuum chamber were they dry out on their way down.
It would be similar to concentrating sugar from sugar beets, then diluting it again to ferment.
Here's are the major stages in making beer:
Grain ==> Malting ==> Malted Grain ==> Mill ==> Mash ==> Boil ==> Chill ==> Ferment ==> Package / Carbonate
In other words, you can brew directly with milled, malted grain. Why condense the resulting wort? Just brew with it right after the mash is completed.
The extracts (LME, DME) are made for brewers who do not have the capabilities or desire to do the mash.
LME = Liquid Malt Extract
DME =Dry Malt Extract.
DME is derived from LME through vacuum evaporation. DME is also called spray malt, due to very fine droplets of concentrated malt syrup being sprayed into a large vacuum chamber were they dry out on their way down.
Do you mean you milled malted grain into a fine powder?
You are highlighting my naivity. Yours is a good question, especially when I want to understand, and utilize what appears to be a simple process. Unfortunately my investigation has taken me down a rabbit hole.
The truth is I am looking for a simple herb, sweetner (even if it might reside within the herb), yeast, and water. My confusion is to do with finding an appropriate sweetner for the yeast. Also, because I have begun inroads into the 'malting' process I find myself reading about the sugars that can be converted from starches in the grain.
I was hoping that this would be a simple process but it seems that simply buying unrefined sugar or raw honey is my most convenient solution ... I just have this romantic notion (harping back to my childhood and large tablespoons of malt!) ... and I like the flavour!
You might not fully understand what the single steps are when making beer, am I right?
Mashing can take anything from 20 minutes to multiple hours. The percentage of converted starches depends on a multitude of factors of which the most impactful are: temperature of the mash, length of the mash, how fine the grain has been milled, mash ph, diastatic power of grains mashed and so on.... it can be as easy as dumping the malt into the full volume of water to hit 65c, wait one hour and then extracting the liquid. Or you can make it complicated with mash ph, water chemistry, multiple temperature steps to hit different enzyme's ranges etc. Up to you.
Mashing can take anything from 20 minutes to multiple hours. The percentage of converted starches depends on a multitude of factors of which the most impactful are: temperature of the mash, length of the mash, how fine the grain has been milled, mash ph, diastatic power of grains mashed and so on.... it can be as easy as dumping the malt into the full volume of water to hit 65c, wait one hour and then extracting the liquid. Or you can make it complicated with mash ph, water chemistry, multiple temperature steps to hit different enzyme's ranges etc. Up to you.
If you want to hit 65 c, your water needs to be warmer. The grains cool it down a bit. Usually 3-4 degrees. There are calculators online for this.
Google "brewer's friend infusion calculator".
By "herb" do you mean a fragrant, flavorful plant, used to season food? For example, rosemary, basil, thyme, etc.
Or do you mean something else?
I have the feeling things are getting lost in translation. These are not common words (terms) they're part of specific processes.
Grain or malted grain ("malt") are not herbs. They're grain, they contain starch! They're not fragrant in that sense.
The starches in the grain can be converted into (fermentable) sugars, with help of the enzymes that were created during malting.
Malt needs to be crushed (milled) then mashed. Mashing here means soaking in 65-70°C water for an hour or longer (with some stirring) to let the enzymes convert the starches into (fermentable) sugars.
The sugars are then turned into alcohol during fermentation. That's what we're after when making beer.
The herbs I am interested in are plants such mugwort, St Johns Wort, Yarrow, Nettles, Dandelion, Sage, ... and prehaps Wild Lettuce - to name a few. I am also interested in mushrooms as an alcoholic tonic ... things like that.
I am sure you are right in your observation of 'lost in translation' ... I mean is ale the same as beer, is gruit an ale or beer, are fruits and leaves wine even if they employ malted grain or hops. I find it all a bit confusing, so I either call what I make a tonic, brew, or herbal.
As you can see, I am interested in the older, more down to earth, recipes before the introduction of hops. I suppose my greatest mentor is Stephen Buhner - I am so glad to read his 'heresies'. That will, perhaps, give you a better understanding of where I am coming from as regards to herbal drinks.
I am sure you are right in your observation of 'lost in translation' ... I mean is ale the same as beer, is gruit an ale or beer, are fruits and leaves wine even if they employ malted grain or hops. I find it all a bit confusing, so I either call what I make a tonic, brew, or herbal.
As you can see, I am interested in the older, more down to earth, recipes before the introduction of hops. I suppose my greatest mentor is Stephen Buhner - I am so glad to read his 'heresies'. That will, perhaps, give you a better understanding of where I am coming from as regards to herbal drinks.
Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, those can be used for flavoring beer, instead of, or in addition to hops. That would make it a gruit (or gruyt, grut, etc.), which is just a name for a type (or style) of beer containing herbs.
Now the beer itself is still malt based, using malted grain. The grain could be barley, wheat, oats, rye, sorghum, millet, etc. or any combination of those.
Critical point is, a (fairly large) percentage of the grain used must be malted, which means it contains enzymes in the kernels, that will convert the starches into sugars during a process called the mash. The mash is simply soaking the milled grain in 65-70C water for an hour or so. That's usually followed by separating the wort (the water containing the sugars) from the spent grain.
You can then add anything you want to that wort during the boil, or after, to make delicious beverages, such as beer, gruit, malt beverages, alcoholic or not.
Ale a style of beer where the wort is fermented with an ale yeast.
Lagers are a style of beer fermented with a lager yeast.
After fermenting Lagers are typically cold stored ("lagered") for a few weeks to a few months to thoroughly become clear. That process is called lagering.
They're all beer.
Gruit is a beer, and you probably would use an ale yeast (or perhaps a wild yeast).
From Wikipedia:
Gruit (alternately grut or gruyt) is a herb mixture used for bittering and flavouring beer, popular before the extensive use of hops.
The terms gruit and grut ale may also refer to the beverage produced using gruit. Historically, gruit is the term used in the historic Low Countries and the Holy Roman Empire (westernmost Germany).
Today, however, gruit is a colloquial term for any beer seasoned with gruit-like herbs.
Actually, just to be the nitpicker... Wiki got it wrong and gruit is NOT synomous for herbal beer. Gruit was a very specific term for a very specific herb and raisin mix and before that it was a name for what we would call nowadays yeastcake. There are some excelent papers available going into much detail from Susan Verberg, one of them can be found here:
https://www.academia.edu/35704222/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Gruit
Some time ago, she was also active in this forum.
I like to call herbal beers... herbal beers, because it perfectly describes what they are. I know, hops are also herbs, but I guess it is such a normal thing to call beers with hops just "beer", that "herbal" beer implies something different than hops.
Cheers!
Having an Aventinus Eisbock atm... man that is a strong beer.
Last edited:
