Sugar v. Malt?

[lacto]

Forgive the basic question ...

Am I right in understanding that a very basic beer recipe is malted grain; water; yeast? So its malt instead of sugar? Is that right? And would it be possible (although very unpredictable) to use a wild yeast like the unripe plums in my garden that are coated in the waxy yeast - could I toss a handfull and let the yeast have its way? Perhaps there might be a preference to add a bitter herb like chicory leaf to enhance the flavour? Or would I be brewing a possibly good liquid compost?

 

[Sammy86]

Forgive the basic question ...

Am I right in understanding that a very basic beer recipe is malted grain; water; yeast? So its malt instead of sugar? Is that right? And would it be possible (although very unpredictable) to use a wild yeast like the unripe plums in my garden that are coated in the waxy yeast - could I toss a handfull and let the yeast have its way? Perhaps there might be a preference to add a bitter herb like chicory leaf to enhance the flavour? Or would I be brewing a possibly good liquid compost?

Beer is malt, water, hops and yeast. The malt has sugar in it that is extracted by the water creating wort. You boil the wort and add hops to create bitterness to cut the sweetness. Once you boil, you cool your wort to a temperature that won’t kill the yeast. Add the yeast and wait until the yeast eat all the sugar and turn it into beer.

You can certainly use wild yeast but remember yeast drives the flavor in beer so it may not create someone good tasting.

Home brewing is a hobby and experimenting is definitely a part of it. The worst that could happen with the wild yeast is it tastes terrible and you dump it.

 

[AlexKay]

Beer, broadly defined, uses malted grains, but people have made fermented beverages from pretty much any kind of sugar there is. Or starch, which is then converted to sugar. Malt does require an additional step (the mash) to convert the starch in the grains. You can use enzymes in mold (koji) or spit (for chica) to convert starch to sugar as well ... but I digress.

One thing to keep in mind is that wort (mashed malted grains), in addition to its sugar, has pretty much everything (amino acids, minerals) that yeast need to grow, already in it. Swapping out wort for sugar water or honey or fruit juice will generally require you to add extra nutrients to get a healthy fermentation.

On to yeast. You can definitely use wild yeast, but yeast has been domesticated over millennia to give pleasant tastes and other desirable properties to fermented beverages. You're definitely rolling the dice harvesting something from your back yard, and even if it is wonderful, you will probably have a hard time repeating it. That may be some of the fun, of course.

Hops have been traditional in beer for hundreds to maybe a thousand years, which is a long time, but not nearly as long as beer has been around. Other bitter herbs may be historically accurate (wormwood, mugwort), but really you can use anything you want if it's safe to consume.

It might be a good idea, if you want to try all of these things, to try them one at a time.

 

[lacto]

Thaank you folks - just what I wanted to hear ... best get on with it then (the berries are already sprouting like crazy!)

 

[odie]

all alcohol comes from...sugar and yeast...and some water...

 

[lacto]

all alcohol comes from...sugar and yeast...and some water...

Agreed ... but my question is to do with either brewing a drink with sugar (ie refined sugar which I cannot make myself)), or brewing with a base malt which I can produce in my kitchen from grains I have bought from the local farmer. I think the end result will be completely different. But I want to know if it is possible to actually brew something without refined sugar ... and the answer appears to be a definate yes - using base malt, which has far more goodness in it, is flavoursome, is a lot cheaper, and easily acquired in bulk. In fact I am in the process of malting some wheat right now (licks lips with eager expectation ...)

 

[HM-2]

Agreed ... but my question is to do with either brewing a drink with sugar (ie refined sugar which I cannot make myself)), or brewing with a base malt which I can produce in my kitchen from grains I have bought from the local farmer. I think the end result will be completely different. But I want to know if it is possible to actually brew something without refined sugar ... and the answer appears to be a definate yes - using base malt, which has far more goodness in it, is flavoursome, is a lot cheaper, and easily acquired in bulk. In fact I am in the process of malting some wheat right now (licks lips with eager expectation ...)

What you're doing here is describing, er, beer.

 

[lacto]

What you're doing here is describing, er, beer.

Exactly!

Perhaps I have got myself confused! In my naivety I have been under the impression that I need sugar to brew herbs and the like, but since reading some the comments here one can use base malt - and no sugar (yes, I know that malt contains sugar but we are not talking about the sugar you buy in the shops). So this revelation for me is amazing ... to think that I can malt grain myself to the exclusion of table sugar and come up with a tasty brew - no matter what the flavourings are. That is a win-win situation - tastewise and healthwise ... wonderful.

... and thank you for reading this babble of mine!

 

[danb35]

if it is possible to actually brew something without refined sugar

Absolutely. In fact, I think I'd go so far as to say that the "normal," standard, traditional form of every fermented alcoholic beverage (beer, wine, mead, even washes for distilling) is made without refined sugar--I guess the recent "hard seltzers" might be an exception. Refined sugar can be added to any of them, with varying degrees of complaint from purists, but it isn't part of the "standard" form of any of them.

using base malt, which has far more goodness in it, is flavoursome, is a lot cheaper, and easily acquired in bulk.

If you're buying malt (as opposed to grain you malt yourself), I strongly doubt this is the case. A 50-pound sack of base malt costs about $1.40/lb, and might yield 40 lb of actual sugar (and that's assuming 100% efficiency in your mash)--so that's $1.75/lb of sugar. Refined white sugar at the market costs $0.75/lb in 4-lb bags (i.e., not in bulk). I don't know how the cost of unmalted grain compares, but the stuff I'm finding is more expensive than base malt in 50-lb sacks.

There are plenty of reasons to brew with malt rather than refined sugar, but saving money isn't one of them. Now, if you're wanting to "brew herbs" in such a way that the predominant flavor of the resulting liquid is that of the herbs, you may find that the malt gets in the way of that.

 

[lacto]

Absolutely. In fact, I think I'd go so far as to say that the "normal," standard, traditional form of every fermented alcoholic beverage (beer, wine, mead, even washes for distilling) is made without refined sugar--I guess the recent "hard seltzers" might be an exception. Refined sugar can be added to any of them, with varying degrees of complaint from purists, but it isn't part of the "standard" form of any of them.

If you're buying malt (as opposed to grain you malt yourself), I strongly doubt this is the case. A 50-pound sack of base malt costs about $1.40/lb, and might yield 40 lb of actual sugar (and that's assuming 100% efficiency in your mash)--so that's $1.75/lb of sugar. Refined white sugar at the market costs $0.75/lb in 4-lb bags (i.e., not in bulk). I don't know how the cost of unmalted grain compares, but the stuff I'm finding is more expensive than base malt in 50-lb sacks.

There are plenty of reasons to brew with malt rather than refined sugar, but saving money isn't one of them. Now, if you're wanting to "brew herbs" in such a way that the predominant flavor of the resulting liquid is that of the herbs, you may find that the malt gets in the way of that.

Here in France I think it is the same. Unless someone can advise me differently buying my own grain and malting in small batches will be more economic for me. I have just bought 20k of wheat berries for 9 euros!! Not an every day occurance, but what I have is incredibly lively - after about 12 hours of soaking the berries start to show their roots!

But buying malt has not been an option for me ... for now. I am going to approach one of the organic farmers and just see what they say, because they have already sold me 25k of organic flour for 42 euros which I think is an OK deal.

As for herb flavours clashing with malt flavours ... we'll see. I do not follow the established acceptable flavours, but rather enjoy the chase for that surprise taste that delights the tongue. I suppose it is a question of thinking out of the box (or being totally out of my tree!)

 

[danb35]

I have just bought 20k of wheat berries for 9 euros!

That's a considerably better price than what I'd been able to find.

When you're doing the comparison, consider that the sugar yield of the malt depends on how well it's malted. You might expect high-quality malt to have a theoretical yield of 80%--so 80% of the weight of the grain, under lab conditions, makes it into the wort as sugar. But you don't brew under lab conditions; a common number for homebrewers is about 75% efficiency--so that means you'd expect (80% x 75%) 60% of the weight of the malted grain to make into your wort as sugar. You'd thus need 1.67 kg of malt to give you the same amount of sugar in your wort as 1 kg of sugar.

As for herb flavours clashing with malt flavours

I was less thinking of clashing than of confusion--if you want something that tastes like, say, rosemary, the malt will add other flavors that aren't rosemary. They may go well with it or not, but they'd be different. Regardless, sounds like an interesting project.

 

[lacto]

That's a considerably better price than what I'd been able to find.

When you're doing the comparison, consider that the sugar yield of the malt depends on how well it's malted. You might expect high-quality malt to have a theoretical yield of 80%--so 80% of the weight of the grain, under lab conditions, makes it into the wort as sugar. But you don't brew under lab conditions; a common number for homebrewers is about 75% efficiency--so that means you'd expect (80% x 75%) 60% of the weight of the malted grain to make into your wort as sugar. You'd thus need 1.67 kg of malt to give you the same amount of sugar in your wort as 1 kg of sugar.

I was less thinking of clashing than of confusion--if you want something that tastes like, say, rosemary, the malt will add other flavors that aren't rosemary. They may go well with it or not, but they'd be different. Regardless, sounds like an interesting project.

OK ... so, because I am rubbish at maths, can you tell me the weight of grain required to produce 1.67K malt? We are talking wheat berries.

 

[Miraculix]

Here in France I think it is the same. Unless someone can advise me differently buying my own grain and malting in small batches will be more economic for me. I have just bought 20k of wheat berries for 9 euros!! Not an every day occurance, but what I have is incredibly lively - after about 12 hours of soaking the berries start to show their roots!

But buying malt has not been an option for me ... for now. I am going to approach one of the organic farmers and just see what they say, because they have already sold me 25k of organic flour for 42 euros which I think is an OK deal.

As for herb flavours clashing with malt flavours ... we'll see. I do not follow the established acceptable flavours, but rather enjoy the chase for that surprise taste that delights the tongue. I suppose it is a question of thinking out of the box (or being totally out of my tree!)

Herbal beer wise was ground ivy the only beer that I liked. It also kept the beer from souring for a reasonable time. Use it in the boil, just as you would do with hops. But no late additions or "dry hopping" with it. You can collect ground ivy in the woods.

 

[lacto]

Thanks miraculix ... I'll be off down the woods after the wind drops, avoiding those widow makers!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks miraculix ... I'll be off down the woods after the wind drops, avoiding those widow makers!

The stem of ground ivy should be rectangular and if you rub the leave you should get a distinctive and strong smell.

Don't dry it, use it fresh! But let the insects have a chance to escape before use.

 

[Miraculix]

Oh and before I forget, give the beer some time. The taste changes significantly within the first weeks. From herbally strange to really nice.

 

[lacto]

Herbally strange? Sounds just up my street! But really nice sounds better ... so I shall try and exercise patience - on some of them ...

 

[jerrylotto]

Malt doesn't contain "sugar" so much as starches. That's what the mashing process is about, converting starches to sugars.

 

[Miraculix]

Herbally strange? Sounds just up my street! But really nice sounds better ... so I shall try and exercise patience - on some of them ...

No really, it's not nice the first maybe two or three weeks. But afterwards it changes completely.

 

[lacto]

Malt doesn't contain "sugar" so much as starches. That's what the mashing process is about, converting starches to sugars.

Precisely! Although, Is it not the grain that has starch - is malted to convert starch to sugar into the sticky stuff I call malt (perhaps this is a semantic thing - some people , laymen such as myself, give it a generic title 'malt' when other people might call it malted grain or base malt - all of which 'contain' sugar? But this is not my question - and I think I have had my answer. This morning I am taking the lovely sprouted grains into the dehydrator, hopefully ready for them to be crushed tomorrow,then gently heated in water and, along with the wild yeast, processed into an ale or something ... yey!

 

[lacto]

Malt doesn't contain "sugar" so much as starches. That's what the mashing process is about, converting starches to sugars.

Precisely!

 

[Miraculix]

Precisely! Although, Is it not the grain that has starch - is malted to convert starch to sugar into the sticky stuff I call malt (perhaps this is a semantic thing - some people , laymen such as myself, give it a generic title 'malt' when other people might call it malted grain or base malt - all of which 'contain' sugar? But this is not my question - and I think I have had my answer. This morning I am taking the lovely sprouted grains into the dehydrator, hopefully ready for them to be crushed tomorrow,then gently heated in water and, along with the wild yeast, processed into an ale or something ... yey!

Be sure to remove the rootlets after drying!

 

[lacto]

Be sure to remove the rootlets after drying!

What!? From each berry??

... Just kidding!

 

[jerrylotto]

Precisely! Although, Is it not the grain that has starch - is malted to convert starch to sugar into the sticky stuff I call malt (perhaps this is a semantic thing - some people.

Malting grain produces the enzymes needed to convert starches to sugars (primarily beta and alpha amylase) and induces cytolysis (breaking down the cell wall). It also breaks down some proteins and starches but despite modification, the starch content (concentration) remains relatively constant unless you wait too long and then the enzymes start turning starches into simple sugars to feed the growing plant. That's why you stop the malting process with a kiln/oven/dehydrator by drying it, then better control that process by mashing at specific temperatures.