Line purchase/balancing help needed

[Mischief_Brewing]

I'm about to start building my liquor cabinet that will have two taps drawing from a dorm fridge conversion in the crawl space basement below it. I'm purchasing the last of the supplies this week and one of those is the beer line. I'm at a loss when I look at all of the calculators out there as to what is the best option for my situation.

The total rise from the keg to the tap will be ~8 feet.

The minimum line needed will be around 12 feet (dorm fridge is ~3' off center of where the taps will be)

I carb and serve at 38 degrees and 10-12# of pressure.

My first results of using all of the various calculators out there say that in order to serve at 12# I'd need 3 feet of 3/16 line. That doesn't make any sense to me since I have a minimum run of 12 feet.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd try 3/16" first. It may end up being a slightly slow pour but if you move up to 1/4", you'll probably need something like 22 feet. The smaller is preferable because there will be much less beer sitting in the line between pours.

 

[weirdboy]

Did you already see this website?

http://kegman.net/balance.html

 

[wildwest450]

The question is, are the runs going to be properly cooled? If not, beer line will be of little concern as it will pour foam like a maniac. I would go with 3/16" as well.

 

[weirdboy]

Really you are talking about 12' runs with 3/16". That seems like it would pour super slow.
I would start with 1/4" personally.

Also wildwest is right if the lines aren't cooled or at least very well insulated it's a moot point.

 

[wildwest450]

Really you are talking about 12' runs with 3/16". That seems like it would pour super slow.
I would start with 1/4" personally.

Also wildwest is right if the lines aren't cooled or at least very well insulated it's a moot point.

Except for the fact that most people on here preach 10-12 foot lines for a basic kegerator setup, which is nut's imo.

 

[Bobby_M]

Actually I agree now. I forgot to consider the rise of 8 feet will significantly slow the pour down. I'd start with a 15' run of 1/4". There is also a lot more varieties of barrier tubing in 1/4" ID; see Kal's thread about tubing off flavors. In any case, without active cooling, you'll have to dump a few ounces of the first pour of the day.

 

[autobaun70]

I would go 1/4" line to make your run, and if your flow is too high, reduce down o 3/16" for the last foot or so to drop your flow back. If your lines aren't cooled though, you are going to be talking major foaming and fouled line issues, so make sure that is properly addressed.

One question though, is it not going to be a major pain to go into the crawl space to change kegs?

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Thanks for the responses guys.

My crawl space is more of a stoop and walk funny space. It's about 4' high. I currently ferment down there so I'm used to carrying 5-gallons around down there as it is.

As for line cooling, I'm likely buying the pre-wrapped trunk line for Chicompany and will add a closed-loop beer-temp water recirculating system down the line when I can afford it. I don't mind wasting a few ounces of beer to clear/cool the lines, but will be happy to avoid it once I can afford to.

My concern with the pre-assembled trunk line is my lack of funds to ever get a glycol/"colder than beer temp" system running for cooling. I'm worried that recirculating beer temp water through the lines designed for glycol will have minimal cooling effect. I'd love to make my own trunk line with 1 1/4" copper run for the cooling out line and use standard tubing for the return but can't justify the expense for the copper right now since it'll be late spring before I'm able to address the cooling part of the build anyway...

 

[CPooley4]

I just ran your scenario with my kegging calculator. Results are below:

1. Using 3/16 line with a flow rate of 1 gallon per minute has you using 3.25 feet of line (not an option for you).
2. Using 3/16 line with a flow rate of .75 gallons per minute has you using 6 feet of line (not an option for you).
3. Using 1/4 line with a flow rate of 1 gallon per minute has you using 13.75 feet of line.
4. Using 1/4 line with a flow rate of .75 gallons per minute has you using 24 feet of line.

Keep in mind, most homebrew setups do not handle 1 gallon per minute all that well. I typically recommend starting around .75 and balancing from there (though starting with an additional 2 feet of line just in case).

In your case I'd either start with the 24 feet (or a little more - 26) of 1/4 line since line isn't all that expensive. You can always cut it down from there to adjust to your system and use the excess for other brewing needs.

OR

You may be able to get by with 3/16 line depending upon the flow rate your system works best with. For instance, with a flow rate of .6 you'd use about 9 feet of 3/16 line. With a flow rate of .7 you'd need about 6.75 feet. I'd grab some 10 feet 3/16 line and try it out. May be a slow pour or it may just work real well for you.

After thinking this through a bit I would start with option 2 personally. I think it will work.

Good luck.

cp

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Thanks CPooley! I prefer a slower pour anyway, so starting at 25 feet of 1/4 and cutting until I hit the sweet spot seems like the right way to go.

I'm leaning against the pre-wrapped trunk line now since I won't need 24 feet of glycol lines.

Does anybody know where I can get a 100' roll of the Bev-Seal Ultra® Series 235 Tubing that Kal tested as best? I found a place but they only sold 500' runs.

 

[CPooley4]

Thanks CPooley! I prefer a slower pour anyway, so starting at 25 feet of 1/4 and cutting until I hit the sweet spot seems like the right way to go.

I'm leaning against the pre-wrapped trunk line now since I won't need 24 feet of glycol lines.

Does anybody know where I can get a 100' roll of the Bev-Seal Ultra® Series 235 Tubing that Kal tested as best? I found a place but they only sold 500' runs.

No problem. I did update my previous post so make sure you re-read. Doesn't change much, but I think you could get by with the 3/16 line if you wanted to give it a shot. Otherwise, the 1/4 line plan should work for you.

Good luck.

cp

 

[BoxofRain]

I just ran your scenario with my kegging calculator. Results are below:

What's this kegging calculator that you speak of?

 

[weirdboy]

Does your calculation take into account the height difference between the keg and the tap? Doesn't seem like it from those numbers.

 

[CPooley4]

yes, it does.

this is the calculation I use:

(1800 * diameter of line^5/flow rate^2*(PSI-(.44*height of tap above middle of keg)))

I've never tested it on a height that far above the keg, but it should work.

 

[CPooley4]

What's this kegging calculator that you speak of?

It's actually a tab in my brew chart that I've developed. The last released version you can find in my signature below, though that version does not include the kegging calculator. I'll be releasing a new version here soon that includes the kegging calculator and many other upgrades.

If you want to take a look at it ahead of time (pre-finished, though the kegging calculator is functional) feel free to pm me your email address and I'll shoot it over to you.

cp

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Does anybody know the internal resistance of SS tubing? I think that if I could overcome the rigidity issues with the connection to the cornies, it would be better for maintaining the temperature once I have a cooling system recirculating constantly in an insulated trunk line setup...

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Does anybody know where I can get a 100' roll of the Bev-Seal Ultra® Series 235 Tubing that Kal tested as best? I found a place but they only sold 500' runs.

I love quoting myself :cross:

Is this the stuff from Kal's post?

http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=87&products_id=2372&zenid=4d9a3b0a88d0573b7750ae2f906b472c

 

[motobrewer]

at .7 gpm (1.5 ounce per second, my normal pour rate) and a 9ft height differential i calculate 7ft of 3/16th

edit: whoops, missed the whole "min 12ft" thing. have to go to 28ft of 1/4" at 12psi, or 21ft 1/4" at 10psi

 

[CPooley4]

Hey Moto - What calculation are you using if you don't mind me asking. We're coming up with pretty close numbers here, but a little different. Would be interested to see where the differences are coming from.

It looks like we may be using the exact same calculation, but possibly different inputs. He mentioned an 8 ft height differential in his original post with serving at 38 degrees and 10 - 12 PSI. When I run it at 8 ft height dif and 11 PSI I get about 6.6 feet of line. However, if I change the inputs to 9 ft height dif and 12 PSI I'm getting your 7 ft number as well.

Thanks,

cp

 

[motobrewer]

just looked at yours, its the same calc.

i didn't read the whole thread before i posted.

 

[motobrewer]

Mischief, maybe look into the "cure for your short hose troubles" thread

cause if you want to brew a wheat/belgian at 20psi, you will need a ton of 1/4, or have different fittings to put on a 3/16 line.

 

[CPooley4]

I thought that was probably the case, but glad to hear.

Thanks.

cp

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

Mischief, maybe look into the "cure for your short hose troubles" thread

cause if you want to brew a wheat/belgian at 20psi, you will need a ton of 1/4, or have different fittings to put on a 3/16 line.

If I end up doing a higher carved beer, I'll probably pick up some of those spiral plastic things for the diptube that I saw in that thread.

Thanks for all of the help guys. Hopefully I can get a new debit card number tomorrow (see other thread that's exploding right now) and start making some purchases...

 

[HeyNoPie]

You mentioned earlier recirculating beer temperature coolant (water) along your lines. In theory that works, but keeping the water at beer temperature is harder than you may think. I tried to do that before and just couldn't get it to stay cool enough. There are a lot of very informative people on this thread helping with the line balancing, so I'm sure you'll get that figured out. I recommend spending significant time planning your cooling. Without proper cooling, I had to dump 2 pints of foam to get one decent pint. Nobody wants that.

 

[weirdboy]

If I end up doing a higher carved beer, I'll probably pick up some of those spiral plastic things for the diptube that I saw in that thread.

Just FYI I used one of those things on a higher carbed beer and the damn dip tube clogged up after the first pint or so. I ended up having to take apart my keg and clean it out to get it working again, at which point I just decided to go with a longer line for that tap.

 

[motobrewer]

what was it clogged with?

 

[Mischief_Brewing]

You mentioned earlier recirculating beer temperature coolant (water) along your lines. In theory that works, but keeping the water at beer temperature is harder than you may think. I tried to do that before and just couldn't get it to stay cool enough. There are a lot of very informative people on this thread helping with the line balancing, so I'm sure you'll get that figured out. I recommend spending significant time planning your cooling. Without proper cooling, I had to dump 2 pints of foam to get one decent pint. Nobody wants that.

What was the length of your run? How insulated were your lines? How long did it take between pours before you got the foaming again?

Sorry for the rapidfire questions, you've definitely piqued my curiosity.