Limiting trub in the primary fermenter.

[Smithy]

I get really clear wort into the primary through my brewing methods as well as using Whirlfloc. So within 10 minutes the majority of the heavy solids are sitting on the bottom.

So a few beers ago I experienced a really violent fermentation. Stirred up the trub completely. Eventually it all falls back on the bottom but takes some time. It makes me think the Whirlfloc was a waste after such a stir.

The last few beers once racked to primary, I wait 24 hours so that I can get the most solids to find the bottom as well as acclimate to room temperature (68 Degrees F.) I then purge another empty carboy with CO2 and transfer the wort leaving all the solids on the bottom of the first carboy. Then I pitch the yeast.

Doing all this isn't hard to do. The krausen that forms is much more clean with less of the gross bittering crap that sits on top of the krausen (see photo). Now, I don't get the full carboy that I normally do so that all the krausen blows off and when I rack to secondary my beer is relatively clean. Takes less time to clear out in secondary even though I leave it there just as long for aging. My beers still taste the same. No change in flavor. OG and FG doesn't change from previous beers.

Can any of you see that I am changing anything in the brewing process by using this method and those proteins being removed? I doubt I will stop doing this regardless but still want to hear any technicals if doing this is changing anything.

 

[Mojzis]

I think you're confusing some things. I'll try to break it down.

Whirfloc/irish moss bind to proteins in the kettle and cause them to settle out. Hot/cold brakes also cause proteins to settle/precipitate. When your beer ferments they will not go back into solution and dissolve. A vigorous fermentation is perfectly fine, just leave it be. There is no reason to let your susceptible wort waiting over night to drop out proteins. I have also heard you want some proteins in your fermenting beer for use as nutrients. Furthermore, some yeast strains flocculate more poorly than others, causing different visual fermentations/haze.

If you want to reduce trub, try whirlpooling in the kettle. After flame out wait 5 minutes then create a whirlpool with your spoon. This will cause the hops/proteins to collect in a cone in the center of your kettle. Siphon or drain around that and you will have much less trub.

Next, if you want a clear beer to drink I suggest cold crashing and/or using gelatin. This will greatly reduce the amount of sediment in bottle and greatly reduce chill haze. Rack to secondary, mix 1 tbsp Knox with hot water and bloom, pitch into freshly racked beer, chill to 32F for 4 days and bottle/keg like normal.

 

[rpe290]

Wow, waiting 24 hours to pitch? Having the yeast take off sooner is much more important than a little trub at the bottom of the carboy.

THAT is what I wouldn't do. IMO, make 6 gallon batches, let it sit 30 mins, and most of it will settle if you don't disturb it.

YMMV

 

[cosmo]

I think there is some validity to your approach. I use whirlfloc and let the trub settle after chilling for about an hour. I transfer all but the last several quarts to limit the trub in the fermenter. There is more than enough protien and nutrients disolved in the wort for the yeast without the trub. Professional brewers often drop the trub at the bottom of their conical fermenters after a while also. I would be interrested in hearing if you notice any difference in the flavor with your method.

 

[Smithy]

Okay, I hope this doesn't sound rude but I understand the use and methods of everything that I talked about. I don't have any problems with clear beer. I am one to try different methods to achieve a certain result so that I have empirical knowledge about such methods. With this method I tried something new to me and mostly against the grain of brewing seemingly only because over history there is no reason to do such methods. However I don't subscribe to the "Its this way because nobody has done it another way" ways of doing things.

My question is does anyone have an empirical or professional opinion with such a method? Doing what I have described I have seen no negative effects other then sometimes my kegs run dry! LOL. When I rack to another carboy, certainly I am not removing 100% of the trub so that some proteins are remaining in suspension. Am I leaving enough? Is this even necessary? What could potentially be the negative effects of doing what I am doing when it comes to removing so much proteins?

Susceptible wort? Other than "handling" wort too much that can expose it to potential bacteria, what changes or what can happen to wort that is in a CO2 conditioned and sanitary carboy with a cap on it waiting for 24 hours to pitch yeast become a problem? Actually I wait around 12 hours (I said 24 and that is wrong) for the temp to come down. After I pass through the plate chiller I am usually at 80 degrees F. I am not going to waste gallons more of water through the chiller and slow down the wort stream to bring it down another 10 degrees. I can wait. I pitch in the high 60's to low 70's.

Cosmo, I have done this 4 times with my "house" recipe beer with no change in flavor at least that I can tell. The only two things that seem to change is I don't have blow off of the krausen because the fermenter is not as full and the krausen is much cleaner! You can see in the photo how clean it is compared to when I don't remove the trub. Does this matter? Not sure. It's not gross looking on the top as it is when I leave the trub. Lol...

 

[Mojzis]

I'm not saying do something this way because that's what everyone does. I guess its a confusing question because it technically doesn't matter. More work for the same end product. There might be no drawbacks besides time, work and susceptibility of the wort, but there also seems to be no benefit either besides a clean krausen. One thing you might be able to test is perceived bitterness due to the reduced amount of proteins. You might need a lab to test ibu's, but it would be informative. I have heard that letting the krausen blow off reduces bitterness, so this experiment might have some association that way. I have no data here for myself, I would look forward to the data if you or another had it.

As far as letting the wort sit and susceptibility, 12 hours isn't as bad as 24. Not all bacteria are killed in the boil, certain bacteria have endospores that may allow them to survive the boil. Also, your equipment isn't sterile so there is still bacteria. You can go on stating all the areas where bacteria have likely gotten into our precious wort. By adding yeast ASAP to your wort you're reducing the chance for bacteria to take over because of competition. But I wouldn't be concerned about 12 hours really. However, would a commercial brewery do the same?

You can do the same thing in the kettle though. Wait the ten minutes, whirlpool and drain around the cone of trub. Then you don't need to bother with switching carboys.

Good luck. If you do some bitterness or flavor testing we would all love to see the data/results.

 

[Tiedye]

What's your thinking behind purging the "soon to be" primary with CO2? This seems counter-productive to me.

 

[kombat]

What's your thinking behind purging the "soon to be" primary with CO2? This seems counter-productive to me.

I noticed that too. That's just a waste of CO2. You want oxygen in the beer pre-fermentation.

 

[Smithy]

Having testing done for IBU's would be a good test! Been wanting to do that anyway. Good suggestion.

Bacteria vs. yeast competition. Makes perfect sense!

Thanks for calling out the CO2 thoughts. Every time I purged it I always wondered if this isn't a productive thing to do. Thinking back to the addition of oxygen equipment some add to the plate chiller for the yeast I always thought it was a waste. Will be stopping that practice!

Thanks everyone so far!

 

[BigFloyd]

Smithy, you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be to obtain the desired result.

If you will do the following relatively easy steps, you're beer will finish clear:

1) use the whirlfloc at 5-10 min

2) let things settle 15-20 min after chilling (cover the kettle of course)

3) avoid racking the kettle trub into the primary

4) cold crash in the primary at 35-40*F 5-7 days after ferment is done

If you want uber-clear beer, use some gelatin when you start the cold crash (if not harvesting the yeast) for bottled beer or right after you rack to the keg.

 

[Smithy]

Okay, I wasn't looking for a way to get clear beer. I get clear wort into primary and end product beer already. The opportunity presented itself to attempt something different and I tried it and still use this method. To transfer wort to another carboy is not that time consuming and difficult. This takes less than 10 minutes to do. Hardly what I would call wasting time. What has it achieved? I get clear beer faster. This is what I like about it! Aging is a different story...

What I was looking for is what potential hazards my wort could possibly face by doing such methods. Things I might be overlooking. I got those answers and appreciate everyones input but really, this was about something else other than achieving clear beer.