Lactobacillus Infections - Need Help with Actions

[BrewThruYou]

Well, I think I pinpointed my infections to lactobacillus and more specifically, to grain dust in the air. In my garage, I siphon into kegs and hang my hoses to dry (I do not ferment in the garage). However, this is also where I keep my grain and grind my grain.

How resilient is lacto and how long will the dust stay in the air?

I'm planning on conditioning the malt to minimize dust. I'm planning on moving all grain operations outside (opening the grain containers, scooping grain, grinding grain, etc.). I will scoop the grain into the MLT instead of dumping. I'm replacing my siphon and will move all hoses to hang in a different room. I already use glass carboys, so I will just throughly clean and sanitize.

Besides doing all this and thoroughly sanitizing the fermenters, kegs and hoses, what else can I do? I feel that either my kitchen (with the dust from the grain dump into the MLT) or my garage is the main culprit.

 

[bja]

Well, I think I pinpointed my infections to lactobacillus and more specifically, to grain dust in the air.

I guess it's possible, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. I crush grain, ferment and fill kegs all in the same room in my basement where there is very little air circulation and have never had a problem

 

[BrewThruYou]

I'm pretty confident it's lacto and I can only think it's from the grain. I'm definitely willing to hear different ideas on where it's coming from though.

I don't reuse yeast (fresh vial in a starter each time), I ferment with proper temps (carboy cap with thermowell for temps), I use glass fermenters, starsan for sanitation with proper concentration and contact time (I also check pH on it), etc. I've been pretty careless with the grain though...dumping it into MLT in my kitchen and kicking up some dust (where I will cool the wort and transfer to a fermenter) and spilling some when weighing and milling the grain in the garage.

 

[wncbrewer]

When is the infection happening? I got lacto once, but a dirty draft line was the culprit

 

[BrewThruYou]

I'm not positive since it's a relatively slow process. It's either happening during chilling in my kitchen and then the infection isn't noticeable until much later or it's happening at kegging. Coming out of the fermentor, I can't detect any off-flavors. I have a chest freezer in the garage that holds 8 kegs and then a 2-keg kegerator upstairs. After several weeks in the kegs, it's pretty noticeable. I can taste it in beers that I didn't even take to the kegerator (bottled from the keg in the chest freezer) and beers that are on draft in the kegerator. So it definitely isn't just the draft lines in the kegerator.

I had a Pale Ale that was kegged in January, scored a 40 in a BJCP contest in February and then score a 16 in a BJCP contest in April...this was never on tap in the kegerator. My latest IPA was kegged a few weeks ago, filled a growler after 2 weeks in keg that tasted great. I then bottled some and it's definitely got that sour, tart taste. I put it in the kegerator and we're 30 days from kegging now and it's very tart, sour.

I break down the kegs each time, soak in PBW, use a keg brush on a drill, use dip tube brush, rinse thoroughly, soak in starsan, etc. This has been a few beers now and it's getting very frustrating.

 

[wncbrewer]

Yes I can understand your frustration, and it is obvious that you aren't a noob and your sanitation seems great to me. Since it seems to be happening in more than one fermenter/keg, my only other reasonable thought would be your chiller. What chiller are using? Immersion, cfc, plate, none? Or it could be the grain dust issue, but I have never heard or read of that. I think I would give everything a good bleaching also. Probably not much help. Let us know how it goes

 

[wilserbrewer]

How cold is your kegerator? Reason I ask is can lacto be active at 35 f., 40f? IDK. I store my beer pretty cold.

 

[BrewThruYou]

I've been using an immersion chiller, but just switched to a CFC. I actually haven't tasted any of the beers that have been chilled using the CFC yet. Might do that tonight.

The malted grain has a ton of lactobacillus on it so most breweries seal off their milling room. I'm thinking my infection has to do with grain dust in the air and on me on brewday. I should probably mill the day before as I have a feeling that grain dust on me might be more of an issue than grain dust in the air.

 

[BrewThruYou]

How cold is your kegerator? Reason I ask is can lacto be active at 35 f., 40f? IDK. I store my beer pretty cold.

Kegerator is actually probably too cold...maybe 35°. The chest freezer is at 38°. I'm not really sure what temps lacto is active at.

It could have been contaminated after chilling the wort, but it takes several weeks (where it's at 62 to 68 ferm temps) to show up. I'm not sure.

The more I think about this, the more I think that the grain dust on my body is the culprit. My wife has always remarked that I look like a mess when brewing...and it's mostly grain dust from milling. I need to either mill the day before or condition the malt before milling to keep down dust.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I might also suggest trying to contain the dust while milling, I mill into a closed 6 gallon pail with very little or almost no dust. I mill inside the house, and the only dust is created when filling the mash tun and it is minimal.

No need to look like a mess while brewing!

I have read of brewers having problems w/ grain dust on their forearms while handling finished beer. Perhaps brew and keg on diferent days, or keg before your brew at least.

 

[bja]

What do you use to siphon from fermenter to keg?

 

[BrewThruYou]

I have read of brewers having problems w/ grain dust on their forearms while handling finished beer. Perhaps brew and keg on diferent days, or keg before your brew at least.

I do brew on different days than I keg. And I'm now planning on milling the night before brewday. I think the grain dust on forearms, shirt, pants, etc. could be the problem.

What do you use to siphon from fermenter to keg?

Autosiphon. And I replaced it and the tubing since I first started getting this lacto infection. I also hang my hoses to dry in the garage, but since they are hung so the openings are facing down and sanitized before use, the chances are smaller than that's the issue. I still plan to hang my tubing in a different room than the garage.

I did just order the MoreBeer sterile siphon starter since I use 6.5G glass carboys for primary. I haven't received it yet.

 

[Braufessor]

I've been pretty careless with the grain though...dumping it into MLT in my kitchen and kicking up some dust (where I will cool the wort and transfer to a fermenter)

How else would one do this? Do people actually dump their grain into their MLT in one room, and then pick it up and carry it back to where they are brewing?? I would think that 99+% of brewers dump milled grain into their MLT in close proximity to their boil kettle (which is where wort will be cooled and transferred).

I mill grain in my basement, 15 feet from where I brew. I dump my grain into the second tier kettle on a 3 tier stand, and there is some dust that kicks up. have never had the problems you are outlining (although, you do have me nervous and rethinking my process).

I guess the first thing I would look at is everything plastic after the wort is cooled. Maybe a spigot on your boil kettle or inside of immersion chiller if using that. But I would look at all plastic, and replace it.

 

[BrewThruYou]

How else would one do this? Do people actually dump their grain into their MLT in one room, and then pick it up and carry it back to where they are brewing??

I guess I just meant I should be more careful pouring it into the MLT. I think it has to do more with the grain dust on my clothes and body than the pouring of grain into the MLT. But if you had about 4 infected batches, you'd want to eliminate any chance of another infection too.

I guess the first thing I would look at is everything plastic after the wort is cooled. Maybe a spigot on your boil kettle or inside of immersion chiller if using that. But I would look at all plastic, and replace it.

Autosiphon is being replaced again, so there really isn't a whole lot of plastic left. Glass carboys, stainless kegs, etc. I just bought 50' of the Accuflex glass-lined beer line, so I'm going to re-do the lines on my bottle filler, my keg-to-keg jumper line and any picnic taps. I replaced my kegerator lines just about 2 weeks ago, so I'll run BLC or PBW through them and then sit starsan in them for a few minutes.

I'll bleach all of the carboys and mark all of the kegs for complete stripdowns and cleaning/sanitizing once they are emptied.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

How do you know it's a contamination issue and not a process issue? Some off flavors won't show up for a while even though they are not infection-related. Specifically I am thinking of water issues. What is your water source? How are you treating it? What signs other than taste suggest infection?

If you are getting an infection from the chiller or anything pre-packaging, the easiest way to tell is to make a batch of beer exactly as you would now and let it sit for several months in the fermentor. If it develops a bad taste and/or pellicle, then you know it's an infection and what part of the process it is coming from. If not then any infection you are getting is during the packaging process. However, I think you are best off looking at your ingredients before assuming an infection.

 

[pjj2ba]

I went through this. I paid careful attention one brew day to see all of the dust sources, and then how to remediate. Here are some of my changes.

I already was grinding and mashing in opposite sides of my basement (not ideal). I covered the bare ceiling joists so there were no surfaces over the brewing area where dust can collect.

Have you ever looked at how dusty your arms are after mashing in? Whoa!! I now wear elbow length gauntlets for all operations involving raw grain (at any step). I also never pour grain, always scoop. Even with that, my eyeglasses still get a bunch of dust on them when I mash in.

I have separate pumps for mashing and recirculating during cooling. I use a plate chiller and now transfer the hot wort to a modified corny so I can do the recirculating cooling in a totally enclosed system.

Bleach everything. I had disassembled all tubing and fittings and brought them into work and autoclaved them. Still had the occasional problem. Finally bleached all of my carboys, that I had thought were clean. That put an end to it.

 

[BrewThruYou]

How do you know it's a contamination issue and not a process issue? Some off flavors won't show up for a while even though they are not infection-related. Specifically I am thinking of water issues. What is your water source? How are you treating it? What signs other than taste suggest infection?

Thank you for your reply.

I'm saying infection because these last 4 or 5 beers are like nothing I've ever made before...not to sound immodest, but I usually make good beer. The smell and taste are assuredly off. For the hoppy beers, they go from very bright, crisp with appropriate hop aromas to sour and tart...one of the judges said Belgian-like. The same beer went from a 40 to a 16 or 18 in two months...from a classic pale ale example to a sour belgian. The smell changes too...gone is hop aroma and you get something else...I'm aware you can't smell sour, so it's hard to describe the smell. They also start to haze a little bit. The beers with the off-taste are definitely hazier than the others which are usually very clear.

I use tap water cut with distilled for most beers, I get Ward Labs water reports every year, I use half a campden tablet to treat my total water before brewing, I use Bru'n Water for calculating mineral additions, I check mash pH every batch, I acidify my sparge water with food grade phosphoric acid, control fermentation temperatures with a swamp cooler with a carboy cap thermowell, etc.

If you are getting an infection from the chiller or anything pre-packaging, the easiest way to tell is to make a batch of beer exactly as you would now and let it sit for several months in the fermentor. If it develops a bad taste and/or pellicle, then you know it's an infection and what part of the process it is coming from. If not then any infection you are getting is during the packaging process. However, I think you are best off looking at your ingredients before assuming an infection.

Yes, I thought about doing this. They all taste fine out of the fermenter, but I usually never let anything go past 4 weeks there. Maybe an 8 weeker would be appropriate...but honestly, I'd love to eliminate this problem sooner than that.

Ingredients are pretty standard. I get bulk grain via a group buy - sacks are stored in large rubbermaid bins (still sealed in the sack). Once opened, I use 50lb Vittle Vaults that seal really well. Hoppy recipes are usually 90% 2-Row with some character malts - nothing stupid like 20% sauermalz.

 

[BrewThruYou]

Bleach everything. I had disassembled all tubing and fittings and brought them into work and autoclaved them. Still had the occasional problem. Finally bleached all of my carboys, that I had thought were clean. That put an end to it.

Thanks for the reply. Can I drive up to state college and use your autoclave?