Keg Pasties

[Kegerator]

I invented a part that fits on top of a corny keg, that allows you to use it as a fermenter. I have heard about a lot of injuries from people breaking glass carboys, and I have seen a lot of ways to use a corny keg as a fermenter, that almost work, or cost a lot, or are hard to clean. I figured there had to be a better way, and if I came up with the idea, I could make brewing a little safer, and a little easier.

My idea was a rubber tube that would be big enough on one end fit tightly over the nipple of a corny keg, and small enough to hold an airlock on the other end. The only rub is you need to remove the poppet valve from the nipple. But I assume most people who use corny kegs do that all the time to clean them.

I have spent a lot of time and money on making prototypes to test to come up with a working model, and doing all of the things needed to get a patent. I am currently making them by hand out of food grade silicone rubber, which is very expensive, and time consuming because the food grade silicone rubber takes 24 hours to set, and the raw material to make the silicone rubber is very expensive, and the cost involved with making molds gets high too.

I think I have found an inexpensive and easy way to use a corny keg as a fermenter with out the normal problems of being hard to clean, taking a lot of parts/money, having an air leak, or taking up more floor space.

What do you think, does my product sound marketable? Or am I just wasting my time and money?

 

[The Pol]

If people can build it, they more than likely won't buy it, I am not sure about how much volume you will be able to move in the homebrewing realm. There have been several posts here detailing how to build such a fermentor.

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Are you aware of this?
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=6120

Despite the fact that that's been commercially available for quite some time now, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who uses them. That little kit is more expensive than what you're proposing, but I don't think price is the main object.

Most of us want to ferment 5-gallon batches, and in a 5-gallon keg you simply do not have enough headspace to act as a primary fermenter, unless you use foam control in which case you have to be careful to always use enough. Even avoiding glass carboys, people can still use plastic buckets, plastic carboys, conicals, etc for primary fermenters with enough headspace.

And in the case of using a keg as a secondary, usually there's no harm in just leaving the keg sealed - what little additional fermentation may take place will only serve to help carbonate the beer.

 

[The Pol]

I tried to post just that yesterday but ran into some errors on here... UM, yeah, most brew 5 gallon batches and a 5 gallon fermentor would not suffice

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I agree with the previous two posts. Fermenting 5 gallon batches in a 5 gallon vessel is not marketable to homebrewers. At least 1 gallon of headspace is needed.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm afraid you've completely wasted time and money. I don't know of anyone that is particularly interested in brewing 4 or 4.5 gallon batches which is the maximum appropriate for a corny keg. In any case, it's so easy to DIY a blowoff for a corny that you're solving a problem that doesn't exist.

A solution is only markettable when it's either too difficult or costly for each user to DIY. We're talking about shoving a piece of hose onto a corny post and slinging it into a jug of water. Even if you want to use a traditional bubbler, you can simply use a couple short pieces of PVC tubing shoved inside each other to reduce down to airlock size. Maybe someone would buy this one piece deal if it was about $1.

 

[Evan!]

Well, when you first posted this, and linked to your website, I tried to suggest that you get a vendor's license before you pimp your wares on HBT, but the thread got deleted before I could hit "post". It seems that one of the mods corrected you, so that's fine. Others have hit on the major points, but I still wanna know: on your website, it says "save $300!". How exactly do you do that? A better bottle costs $23 or so. I'd have a buy about a dozen better bottles to spend $300. What on earth are you talking about?

Also, just a suggestion: "Keg Pasties" is a strange name. It conjures up images of paste, or pasty-white skin, or something.

 

[the_bird]

Also, just a suggestion: "Keg Pasties" is a strange name. It conjures up images of paste, or pasty-white skin, or something.

That's REALLY the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "pasties"?

I'm going to suggest that you do a Google image search on that term, and that you don't do it at work...

 

[mr x]

Agreed as per Bobby_M. I would only see this as being a throw in to help sell a bigger package of equipment. It's just to easy to do as above.

 

[Kegerator]

Thank you all for the input. I have been using them for a couple of years now. And I found them easy to use, and I am not losing a ton of beer, I may lose a pint or two from most brews. I had one very active brew where I lost the better part of a gallon. I have used them as all in one, where I ferment and server, I just cut a couple of inches off the bottom of the dip tube, and it is the ultimate in lazy. I fermented and served out of the same corny.

The name Keg Pasties are because they go over the nipples of the keg, if you have more questions Google will help you.

Where I do see the best use is in lagering and aging. In those cases you I think Keg Pasties work great because they do not take up any more floor space, they are easy to clean, they make an air tight connection to the bubbler, and they allow you all the benefits of fermenting in Stainless Steel with out spending hundreds of dollars on a Stainless Steel fermenter. And they are made out of a Food Grade material so you don't have to worry about long term exposer to the beer, wine, mead...

 

[Kegerator]

I like the idea of making this part of a bigger package.

 

[Kegerator]

I have been happy with my idea, but I may have to rethink this project. The overwhelming majority seem to think differently than me, I guess that is a good indication I am going in the wrong direction.

Thank You.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hmm, I don't think of the connector posts as nipples. That might be the terminology breakdown. We call call them posts here.

If I want to secondary or lager in a corny, I just close it down, sealed. Once you're in secondary, you shouldn't have all that much offgassing and the keg is designed to take pressure anyway.

As I mentioned, in using it as a primary (I wouldn't), $3 worth of tubing is all you really need. Whatever your solution is would have to be really really clever and something that provided a huge benefit before I'd concede that point. Another thing I don't get is, if you're already taking the post off to remove the poppet, why not just shove a 1" piece of 3/8" ID tubing on the threads and shove the airlock into that? No harder to clean.

I assume the "$300 savings" is in comparison to a stainless conical. In that case, it's an apples to oranges comparison and not really a clever marketing angle.

 

[Kegerator]

The problem with 3/8 tubing on the treads is air leaks. It does not seal good enough for long term storage. And you do not want to close it totally, the pressure from the CO2 will kill the yeast.

You have a point about comparison to a stainless conical, a corny is not conical, but it is the closest thing I could think of, where you could ferment in stainless.

 

[Evan!]

That's REALLY the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "pasties"?

I'm going to suggest that you do a Google image search on that term, and that you don't do it at work...

Bird, we've already established the fact that I don't look at nearly enough internet pr0n. Do you have to keep rubbing it in?

 

[Evan!]

I assume the "$300 savings" is in comparison to a stainless conical.

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, when I bought my Subaru, they had a poster in the showroom that said "save over $300,000 off the price of a Bentley Azure!"

 

[the_bird]

Bird, we've already established the fact that I don't look at nearly enough internet pr0n. Do you have to keep rubbing it in?

Methinks Evan! is in denial about his *rubbing*, although that's really more for he and Mrs. Evan! to decide.

"Pasties" are really more of a live-action thing, though...

 

[olllllo]

This is one of those things that would require a fundamental change in the way that people brew to gain acceptance. In real terms, there would have to be a compelling reason apart from this product to brew 4 gallons instead of 5.

Once example I can think of would be regulatory. In Utah, for example, there is a law about the largest container that you can use to store alcohol. (Cornies are technically illegal).
OR
If we were mandated to convert to metric because 4g =~15L.
OR
There was a dearth of underemployed SS welders that would fab a 5g corny into a 6 for a nominal fee.

None of this seems likly to me. It seems to be an uphill battle for you. Good luck.

 

[HenryHill]

Think they're great.

'Would-jas like pahstees ?',... eh, Yooper?

 

[Cheesefood]

I'm thinking about 4 gallons of Jenkem, so perhaps I'll get one.

 

[Evan!]

Methinks Evan! is in denial about his *rubbing*, although that's really more for he and Mrs. Evan! to decide.

"Pasties" are really more of a live-action thing, though...

No denial here, the wife and I have a nice collection of videos. But we haven't had internet at home in a couple years, so I'm just not up on all the lingo. I'm a fan of redtube, though. That's good fer a rubbin. :rockin:

 

[Evan!]

I'm thinking about 4 gallons of Jenkem, so perhaps I'll get one.

Hey, if you bottle that, be sure to send me some. Do you filter it, or let the big chunks remain?

 

[Kegerator]

Do you think I should promote them to be used just as secondary fermenters?

 

[Bobby_M]

Once you're in secondary, you're not going to be building up any appreciable pressure. You might hit 10-20 PSI and that's not going to kill any yeast.

Let's take the other side, if you somehow pull a 3psi vacuum due to crash cooling such that it would actually pull outside air in (since you think tubing on the threads is an air leak), you'd pull the airlock liquid in by then anyway which is equally bad unless it's vodka.

This is just my opinion. Maybe there are enough non-DIY-minded folks out there trying to use cornies as secondaries to make the product fly. I just think you're trying to create a market that doesn't exist.

 

[the_bird]

But then what's the point? Lots of people just use cornies for secondary fermenters without worrying about hooking up an airlock. If the yeast are basically done working, there's no concern about pressure building up and keeping them from working.

Thinking about this for a second... where using a keg as a primary WOULD be pretty cool is that you could hook it up to pressure after a week and blow most of the trub up and out, kinda like an upside-down conical. But, that doesn't get around the issue of not wanting to do primary fermentation in a five-gallon vessel.

 

[olllllo]

I think it would be in your best interest to shop this idea around on the brewboard or a few others, since it seems we here have about the same opinion.

 

[Orfy]

Do you think I should promote them to be used just as secondary fermenters?

Only if you are selling them to wine makers.

Most beers don't need a secondary fermentition vessel. They need a conditioning vessel. If it's frementing in the secondary vessel then you have moved it too early.

Kegerator, any chance of shortening your signature please?

Next Up - Belgian Triple
Primary #1 - Empty #2 - Empty
Secondary #1 - Apple Mead #2 - Empty
Aging #1 - Mead #2 – Vanilla Mead #3 – Blueberry Mead #4 – Riesling Wine #5 – Empty
Tap #1 – Labette Blue #2 – Belgian Triple #3 – Molasses Stout #4 – Root Beer
www.KegPasties.com

Much better than.

__________________
Next Up - Belgian Triple
Primary #1 - Empty
Primary #2 - Empty
Secondary #1 - Apple Mead
Secondary #2 - Empty
Aging #1 - Mead
Aging #2 – Vanilla Mead
Aging #3 – Blueberry Mead
Aging #4 – Riesling Wine
Aging #5 – Empty
Tap #1 – Labette Blue
Tap #2 – Belgian Triple
Tap #3 – Molasses Stout
Tap #4 – Root Beer

www.KegPasties.com

 

[Kegerator]

You are depressing the heck out of me. If I was just thinking of this idea, after taking to you I never would have made the first one. But I have been using them for Beer, Wine and Mead. And I am very happy with how they work. I guess they are not a marketable product.

Thanks for all input.

 

[Orfy]

If you've put the effort in then the people you need to convince are the LHBS owners or the big internet guys.

I don't think you'll find a market where you can get 1 on 1 sales.
You need to convince the store owners and they need to pitch them to their customers.

The problem is most homebrewers are ingenious and will produce their own solutions.

Maybe the research would of been better preproduction.

 

[Kegerator]

Oh well, lets hope my next project is received better.

 

[Orfy]

Are you going to research the market first.
And you really do need a vendors licence if you are here in a professional capacity.
Thanks for shortening the signature.

 

[Kegerator]

I did my research on the part, not on the people. I guess I missed that. I am glad I had a chance to put this in front of some good brewers before I went full steam and placed an order to have them made for me in a factory. This forum provided me a place to talk it out and see what people thought before I went past the point of no return. Thank You.
My next Idea, I will run by the collective, before I get the patent.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're getting valuable hard-truth feedback here. I'm sorry it's such a downer, really. I've had great ideas that turned out not so great. Nothing ventured nothing gained right?

Homebrew gear can get really expensive and sometime you just have to spend it because there are proven benefits to the more expensive option. Then there are solutions that are dirt cheap and nearly as effective. We're always trying to save where it doesn't matter to apply that money to where it really does. Ok, lots of words to basically say a 1" piece of hose, infinitely replaceable for 10 cents a pop is the "good enough" solution that you solved with a $10 option.

Many of us look at big stainless conicals in a similar way, a great toy with some level of benefit but plastic and glass fermenters work too. Find a gap for which no simple DIY solution exists. Then figure out if you can make something at a price point that won't cause anyone to explore DIY solutions. Use the autosiphon as an example. It's $9 and something that you'd be hard pressed to DIY for even close to that price. Some people don't think it's all that great, but it's probably sold 10,000 units. Anyway, lots of benefit, hard to DIY for less.

 

[Kegerator]

A 1" hose will not make an air tight connection around the Keg and the air lock. If you are just using it for primary, where the beer is constantly creating enough CO2 to blow out any air, then that is a cheap solution.

You could use a regular Gas Connector and a hose to an air lock, that would be air tight, but then you have a lot of parts to clean.

You could use a longer hose to a bucket, but that takes up more floor space, and you have an open water source that will be a harbor for what ever floats in to it.

Heck you could just pop the check valve every now and then to let out the extra CO2, but yeast produce different flavors as CO2 increases and they die at higher levels of CO2.

You are right there are a lot of ways of doing this cheaper, But none of them do it as well.

The reason for the cost of the part is that it is made out of Food Grade Silicone, and it takes 24 hours for the silicone to set. When (if) I can find a company to make them the price will go down a dollar or two, based on volume. Next time you are at a kitchen store look at the silicone bake ware, it is very expensive. I could make this out of regular rubber for a lot less, but I would not want that touching my beer.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sorry. I meant a 1" long piece of 3/8" ID PVC tubing like seen here:

It may be true that it's not a perfect seal but it could be considered good enough if you're using the keg as a 4-gallon batch primary. As was mentioned, if you're using it for a 5-gallon secondary, the airlock is unnecessary.

I don't know what material carboy caps are made of but I'd imagine it to be a cheaper material than silicone. What you've basically made is a carboy cap that fits a corny post.

Here's a question, are they flexible enough to accomodate the larger diameter pinlock posts?

 

[CarlLBC]

sounds like alot of trouble for something that any one can do pretty easily. I've been using kegs for a while for lagering and conditioning, but I just bought extra firestone lids and removed the presssure relief and put a stopper in it like the picture shows. not much more of a benefit except thinner vessel to fit more in a fridge or something and the fact that they're stainless steel.

sorry if the image doesn't upload. i'm not good with computers.

 

[Kegerator]

sounds like alot of trouble for something that any one can do pretty easily. I've been using kegs for a while for lagering and conditioning, but I just bought extra firestone lids and removed the presssure relief and put a stopper in it like the picture shows. not much more of a benefit except thinner vessel to fit more in a fridge or something and the fact that they're stainless steel.

sorry if the image doesn't upload. i'm not good with computers.

I wish I would have seen this 2 years ago.

 

[kinison_fan]

...My next Idea, I will run by the collective, before I get the patent.

Not to continue beating you up, but you'll want to patent the idea first, then get feedback on the idea, then make prototypes, manufacture, etc...

Not saying anyone here would steal your idea, but it is a public forum. If you seek approval of your idea before the patent, you may find someone else has applied for a patent on your idea...

 

[Brewing Clamper]

...My next Idea, I will run by the collective, before I get the patent.

That's the spirit! Keep it up man, who knows maybe you'll come up with some cool stuff that we can all use...

 

[Kegerator]

Patents are expensive, The Keg Pastie has had all it's patent paper work done, now I am just waiting on the patent office "Patent Pending". My next Idea I don't think I'll bother with a patent, way too much time and money.