It's official. My sanitation sucks.

[20grit]

Do you sanitize your caps? I've not seen that listed anywhere. I put all mine in a cup with some starsan in it. They go on right after the bottle is filled, but don't go to the capper for a few minutes.

 

[cloudybrewer]

LME supposedly goes bad pretty fast, DME is supposedly more stable.

How long would you say an unopened bag of DME is good for.
How about an opened bag of leftovers?

So I accept that my wort is most likely contaminated when it goes into the fermentor and seek to outcompete the contaminants with a good healthy yeast pitch.

Easiest way to assure a big healthy yeast pitch is not making starters. Easiest way is dry yeast, properly rehydrated, and don't be stingy with it it is cheap.

Many say they don't make a starter for hefewiezens. But since I was getting a bad flavor that may have been attributed to poor yeast health, I did. So I guess I thought​ I was over pitching, at least according to style. I'm not arguing your points about dry yeast; I agree. It is much easier to get a higher cell count without the added sanitation worries.

.

 

[eric19312]

Here are a couple more ideas about sanitation and chasing off flavors. If issue is with the sanitation of your bottles or caps you should see variability in the bottled beer. Some will be fine, others will be gushers or show serious flaws.

If the off flavor is something you don't see in the gravity sample on bottling day but shows up in the bottles after they age suspect your bottling bucket...including valve, spigot and wand.

Finally here is an interesting test that James Spencer and Chris Colby discussed on Basic Brewing Radio a few years ago they called a wort stability test. Here is a description of how to do it and how to interpret the results from BYO. If you do this and get 48 or 72 hours clean but the batch still comes out bad then you know the source of contamination is in your fermentor or further downstream in the process.

To perform a wort stability test, do the following: Near the end of your brewday, take a small glass jar with a sealable lid and sanitize it by boiling it in water for about 5 minutes. Let it cool and wait until you are ready to transfer your wort to your fermenter. During the transfer, collect some chilled, un-aerated wort in the jar and cover loosely with the lid (don't seal the lid). If you use an in-line aerator, shut if off just prior to collecting the sample, then restart.

Store the wort sample somewhere warm -- ideally around 80 °F (27 °C) -- and shielded from strong light. Check every 12 hours (or more frequently) and see when the first signs of fermentation are visible (usually as a spot of foam on the surface of the wort). Once you see evidence of fermentation, smell the wort and note the aroma. (If you feel brave, you could taste it, but I wouldn't recommend it. It won't hurt you, but it likely won't taste good.)

If you see fermentation within 24 hours, your wort is seriously contaminated. Your beer will likely exhibit off aromas and flavors. If you see fermentation in 48 hours, it still contaminated, but not as much as in the previous case. Your beer may or may not be overtly sour or phenolic (or show other signs of bacterial contamination), but it will likely be suffering in some way. If the wort is still clear at 48 hours (at 80 °F), your level of contamination is not likely to be a problem and your beer should smell and tast fine. If your wort is still clear at 72 hours, your wort is very clean.

 

[shoengine]

You could maybe say that, but it isn't exact. I've been through the lists of common off flavors and their causes many times, and I just can't nail down a good description. But then, my wife says I have a caveman palate. My descriptions of food rarely exceed good or not good.

That sounds like she is offering her services as a taster. I'd call that bluff.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

My first batch was similar - a hefenweizen, extract with specialty grain steep, and wyeast 3068. Came out somewhat carbondated, but head dissipated within a minute. Fermented warm (70-72) and came out all banana and no clove. It is drinkable but disappointing. Also my smack pack of 3068 was tight as a drum after 12 hours, so that could be an issue.

With three similar batches coming out similarly disappointing, I would suggest going to a different beer for a batch and see how that turns out. You might just not like this version.

 

[shoengine]

For what it is worth, my first two extract batches turned out precisely like you describe with the tart, almost sour twang to it. I thought it was my process, and in retrospect, it could have been. However a year after my first extract batch, and months after the second, I got a Brewers Best kit, Red Ale, that I made using the instructions included, and it turned out good. The second kit, West Coast IPA, turned out even better. Then I found out about LME and how it has a critical shelf life. I now blame those first two batches on an old Mr. Beer kit that sat too long.

Additionally, I use the Brewer's Friend templates in conjunction with the instructions in the kit.

 

[SGTSparty]

I know everyone's trying to help but can we focus on what the OP is saying?

Things we know:

1. He's using DME (so old LME is not an issue)
2. DME is used within 2 months of ordering (at least the vast majority of it) and shipped from Northern Brewer, some unused DME is carried over to the next brew day if there is left over DME
3. He's using a correct StarSan mix ratio and cleaning/sanitizing process has been out lined in post #'s 2, 15, 20, 32 and 38
4. Off flavor is present at bottling so bottling bucket, tubing, bottle and cap sanitation are not the cause
5. Flavor is not subtle, secondary or hidden.
6. With regards to giving up extract for BIAP: "this has been suggested by several people, so I do plan to try this. But I need to make up an extract kit the I already bought first. No sense in letting it get old."

Questions for OP:
1. How often do you brew? Specifically, if you did use leftover DME from the previous batch how long was it since it had been opened?
2. How do you store your left over DME?
3. How long are your batches sitting in primary and are you sure you're getting a good seal on your fermenter? Seems unlikely you're getting oxidized in primary though.

my questions for the crowd are:
1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

 

[shoengine]

My bad, I totally missed the DME part.

 

[calgary222]

Just scanning this while I am on a teleconference for work So forgive me if this has been asked and answered -
How long are you in the primary? Early on I was doing kits I was following their times or simply waiting for the krausen to disappear before kegging - turned out that often this was too long, the activity and thereby the CO2 generation that is protecting your beer had stopped - the result was bugs getting in at the primary, slight off flavor initially, more later...

 

[cloudybrewer]

If anything, I think you're fermenting 3068 too low. I'd want it fermented higher, like 72. I'll also say you don't need a starter on this particular beer.

. Since I was having problems, I suspected yeast health. So I began making 1L starters and lowered my temp to make sure the yeast weren't throwing fusel alcohol or anything else nasty tasting. Also, I did a TON of reading on hefe fermentations, and found that Jamil recommends against under pitching and under aerating, and ferments at 62F. Braukaiser recommends 62-64F because higher temps can result in a thin beer with more alcohols, which I thought described mine fairly close. I was willing to sacrifice yeast character if it meant I could actually drink it. So that's why I did what I did. Many on this forum underpitch and go higher temps, though, with with success. Hell if I know. Following the professional advice didn't help,
so I might as well try higher next time.

How have you been steeping the grains? Is that right that they are using munich as a steeping grain? I'd cut that out completely.

Recipe calls for 4 ounces of grain. I steep in 2 qts of 150F water for 20 mins and sparge with 2 qts to 1 gal of 150F water. ( I've played with the sparge water amount a bit.) I was confused as to why Munich was used, too, as everything I've read says it can't be steeped.

I'm also wondering if the IBUs are low. Is the kit not accounting for Hallertau AA%. At 2.7% I'm guessing the balance is off. I know this year on multiple recipes I've had to increase Hallertau.

. The recipe calls for 3 AA. Since mine have all been 2.7 I've adjusted my recipe by using more than an ounce to hit that 3% mark.

On your next attempt at the Paulaner clone. Keep it simple. Smack Wyeast pack at least 3 hours before pitching. Pitch into wort simply made of LME and/or DME with hop addition at 60 minutes to finish IBU at 13. Ferment at 72. Check gravity 7-10 days into fermentation. If stable 3 days later, bottle.
. At what age is the smack pack not enough? Lots of people say to just use the pack as is, but no one ever says how old it is. Are they assuming yeast that's less than a month old, three months, what do you think?

.

.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Do you sanitize your caps? I've not seen that listed anywhere. I put all mine in a cup with some starsan in it. They go on right after the bottle is filled, but don't go to the capper for a few minutes.

I do this, too. Nearly identical procedure.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Here are a couple more ideas about sanitation and chasing off flavors. If issue is with the sanitation of your bottles or caps you should see variability in the bottled beer. Some will be fine, others will be gushers or show serious flaws.

If the off flavor is something you don't see in the gravity sample on bottling day but shows up in the bottles after they age suspect your bottling bucket...including valve, spigot and wand.

The off flavor exists after fermentation and doesn't really change much after bottled.

That test sounds very interesting. I'm definitely going to put that in my Brew notes and try it, even if the general consensus is that I don't have infection, simply because I like research. Thanks.

 

[cloudybrewer]

That sounds like she is offering her services as a taster. I'd call that bluff.

I had her try the sample the other night to see what description she would give, even though she doesn't care for beer very much. After that I went back downstairs and opened the bucket, since I had no intention of bottling another crappy batch, and saw what I thought was the infection. You should have seen her face when I told her!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Questions for OP:
1. How often do you brew? Specifically, if you did use leftover DME from the previous batch how long was it since it had been opened?

I brewed last April (witbeir kit).
Then July ( Paulaner clone, all new ingredients)
then September (out of 6 pounds DME used, one pound was leftover from July) and April (used 4.5 pounds new, 1.5 pounds leftover).

2. How do you store your left over DME?

When I know the bag won't get used up, I only cut off a corner of it instead or ripping it wide open, just enough to dump out what I need. Then I push out all the air and twist the open corner of the bag as tight as I can, double it over, and twisty tie it shut. The the DME bag goes into a ziplock bag, again with as much air pushed out as possible .
It gets stored in a cupboard in the basement.

3. How long are your batches sitting in primary and are you sure you're getting a good seal on your fermenter? Seems unlikely you're getting oxidized in primary though.

three weeks, 17 days, 22 days, and and 17 days.
No my fermenters don't seal. The bucket lids have to be pushed on and give a difinitive snap when closing, but once they are all the way on they can be jiggled around a bit. My airlocks never have any activity because the CO2 escapes around the lid. Ive read lots of comments on here saying that that isn't uncommon with buckets and makes no difference as long as bacteria can't fall into the fermenter. Is that not actually true? I thought that as long as you don't move the bucket or open the lid, all is well?

my questions for the crowd are:
1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Just scanning this while I am on a teleconference for work So forgive me if this has been asked and answered -
How long are you in the primary? Early on I was doing kits I was following their times or simply waiting for the krausen to disappear before kegging - turned out that often this was too long, the activity and thereby the CO2 generation that is protecting your beer had stopped - the result was bugs getting in at the primary, slight off flavor initially, more later...

17 days to three weeks. How do bugs get into your primary if you don't open it? How long do you ferment before packaging now? Some on here say three weeks minimum for any beer. Others will keg in a week if the gravity hits predicted final.

 

[SGTSparty]

No my fermenters don't seal. The bucket lids have to be pushed on and give a difinitive snap when closing, but once they are all the way on they can be jiggled around a bit. My airlocks never have any activity because the CO2 escapes around the lid. Ive read lots of comments on here saying that that isn't uncommon with buckets and makes no difference as long as bacteria can't fall into the fermenter. Is that not actually true? I thought that as long as you don't move the bucket or open the lid, all is well?

Its not uncommon and I think the vast majority of the time its not a problem, even if its not a best practice per say. I also ferment in buckets but I'm able to get a good seal with my lids (I check my seal by pressing down on my lid in the center and watching the waterline shift in my 3 piece air lock. Probably not relevant to you if you know you don't get a good seal.) I don't think this is really your issue though. My thought was if you weren't getting a good seal and leaving your beer in primary for an extended period of time you maybe getting oxidation which can stale beer quickly and can cause some wheat beers to get kind of tart and loose their other unique characteristics (at least this was my experience with my blue moon clone last summer) but you're not really leaving them in primary that long. Check one more thing off the list of possible culprits I guess.

 

[shoengine]

I had her try the sample the other night to see what description she would give, even though she doesn't care for beer very much. After that I went back downstairs and opened the bucket, since I had no intention of bottling another crappy batch, and saw what I thought was the infection. You should have seen her face when I told her!

I might've kept mum on the possible bacterial infection until confirmation...

Funny though!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Extract can/will give you a darker beer. It's also more likely to provide off-flavors due to age. This doesn't mean that you will automatically have issues if you brew with extract, but fresher is always better.

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.

. But as you are working with extract do think about the freshness of the extract.

1. Do we think his use of a pound or so left over DME could be causing the old extract issue folks have mentioned?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543547

In the above thread, the guy had a bag of DME open for a few months that turned into a brick and most responses said to go ahead and use it. For what it's worth, I've never had so much as one little clump in any of my leftovers. It is always still exactly the same as day one, in scent, consistency, appearance, and even taste.

 

[shoengine]

I don't think it is the DME. Your issues are too consistent, unless this is ALL out of the same package.

 

[eric19312]

I think stale extract is more of an issue for LME than for DME.

 

[shoengine]

I wasn't thinking stale DME was the issue anyway.

 

[Homercidal]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543547

In the above thread, the guy had a bag of DME open for a few months that turned into a brick and most responses said to go ahead and use it. For what it's worth, I've never had so much as one little clump in any of my leftovers. It is always still exactly the same as day one, in scent, consistency, appearance, and even taste.

I should have said LIQUID extract can go bad. Generally DME can be stored a long time by just sealing the bag up well.

I've also opened cans of LME that were very obviously darker than original.

 

[passedpawn]

I should have said LIQUID extract can go bad. Generally DME can be stored a long time by just sealing the bag up well.

I've also opened cans of LME that were very obviously darker than original.

I stored a couple of quarts of LME at room temp for a year and it developed a thick green mold on the top. I used it and the beer turned out fine. I believe I made a 0.5-assed attempt to skim the offending fungus.

 

[brewcat]

.

You shouldn't have a problem with fusels. 3068 recommended temp range is 64-75. What I'm thinking you're wanting is more banana character. So according to Wyeast, higher fermenation temps and not overpitching.

The steep seems fine. Only doing 4 oz you may want to steep just in .333 quarts. I just find Munich as a steeping grain curious.

Smack packs say to use within 6 months. Older than 4 months may take longer to swell. I probably use them between 1-2 months old.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Well, I finally made time to make the Nut Brown kit. Everything went well, really well actually. Cooled from boiling to 70F in record time for me. So, in ten days or so I'll check gravity and have a taste and report back.

 

[cloudybrewer]

So, at 11 days I checked gravity. It was 1.009, 1.010, basically done. Tasted ok, no tart or weird flavors. Today is 2.5 weeks, and I finally got around to bottling. I'm impressed. It's not "I'll never buy beer again" quality, but actually drinkable. I may have a winner. On a side note, I tried the sanitation test that was mentioned earlier. I put about 200 mL in a flask on Brew day after cooling, transferring to fermenter, and aerating. So the sample had every opportunity to become infected. It took EIGHT DAYS for any bacteria colonies to form, and that's with me taking off the foil three times over the week to smell it. Sooooooo, I guess my sanitation DOESN'T suck! For anyone reading this in the future, I'll report back again after carbonation.

 

[cloudybrewer]

As promised, here's my report on the nut brown.

I've had about 20 of them now. At first, they were just drinkable. No distinct off flavors, but not great. After about 4 weeks in the bottle, it is better. It has a good nutty nose, but the flavor doesn't back it up for some reason. But more to the point, the tart flavor of my previous batches is gone and there is definitely no infection aftermath. so I guess I'll blame the previous problems on my ingredients for the recipe. It had 15 pages worth of responses from people singing it's praise, so I don't know why I couldn't pull it off, but things are looking up.

 

[jlinz]

Any updates?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Skip using the whisk to aerate. Besides having a ton of surface area and lots of nooks, most of them have hollow handles where water can collect and breed bad things, and then dribble out into your beer during vigorous use. Since you are using it in room temp wort when it is most susceptible to infection, this seems to me a likely culprit.

 

[hawkbox]

Just to put a bit of context for you too, I think you're going to be fine. I did a batch of Sierra Nevada last week and after 5 days in the secondary this is what I woke up to.

After some fellow brewers over at Brewers Friend told me it would be fine (And to not be a wimp) I transferred to my keg and burst carbonated it. While I'm not entirely happy with the flavour it actually came out pretty decent.

So just keep at it and remember that they brewed hundreds of years ago and it was still drinkable.

Check out these 2 youtube videos, they put a lot of our fears into perspective.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLxNWWeEAlw[/ame]

https://youtu.be/eWmstIC5Sps

 

[cloudybrewer]

Any updates?

Well, the nut brown got better with some age. I'm drinking the second to last one now. Not something I offered to family or friends, but okay. None of that tart flavor, though.

Decided to switch to BIAB.

The next batch was a 2 row, Marris Otter, Amarillo recipe I found online, and who knows if it would have been good or not because I made a accidentally left a light on it all day after hurrying out the door to work and it tastes skunky as hell. Such is my life, apparently.

In the next couple days, I'm bottling Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde. All went well, no glaring F-ups. Here's hoping!

I can say that I like BIAB. On my first two tries, I got 85% efficiency in the fermenter according to all the online calculators, which blows my mind. Guess SOMETHING has to go right!

 

[jlinz]

Second to last one??? That's three and a half months give or take. Drink faster !!! :rockin: Seriously though, sounds like things are heading in the right direction.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Second to last one??? That's three and a half months give or take. Drink faster !!! :rockin: Seriously though, sounds like things are heading in the right direction.

Yeah, I know. The problem is that I also like rum, whiskey, and this local chocolate stout I can't stop buying! I won't be able to brew again until after Thanksgiving when the field work is done, but am excited to try my hand at a stout or Porter next.