Long read, took me a few days!
I had the luck of once getting a couple of cans of treehouse here in spain. Needless to say it changed my life, until i gave up cause i just couldnt get decent hops and they were far too expensive for the crap they were. That changed about 5 or 6 months ago and i have experimented a lot with hop schedules and grain bill until eureka, i started thinking about the yeast. I remember doppelganger being hefeish and i what i previously thought were hop aromas could actually a synergy of the hops with the esters from the yeasts, like in wine esters and phenols complement with aromatic hydrocarbons from different parts of the grape. I made a bunch of research and got same conclusions a lot you fellas have, underpitching and temperature control can really! bring some crazy strong aromas from a beer.
I do something similar to what marshallb does however i have not used fermentis. But im very glad! to have reached part of the conclusion about a hefe yeast
I definetly need to try with fermentis and the belgian yeast. From an earlier post i remember that some beers do not have all the 4 yeasts in them so it kind of reinforces my idea that a genius beer desgin is about a great balance of all 4 elements of beer water, yeast, hops, grain. Understanding them and controlling them to your desire.
I basically pitch in a 1070ish wort with 9g of london esb (honest to god A beast of a strain and when fermented at high enough temperatures you get a lot of tropical and apple notes, beautiful) and 1g of mangrove jacks bavarian yeast (i have never gotten any spicyness from it even when ferm start temp was low, just pure banana with a background of vanilla) all at once at 23/24 c the closer to 24 the better i find for esters. I then wait until around 50% of og has dropped, usually 24h or less and drop the temperature down to 16/17c. I read that lowering fermentation temp sort of controls the release of esters that would otherwise volatilise if fermentation is allowed to stay vigorous for a long time. Usually dry hop then as well. Wait until final gravity is nearly reached and dry hop with a lot less yeast activity and more alcohols (hopefully potential solvent for essential hop oils). Last dry hop usually 2 days and first 3.
Grain bill is simple as hell, pale ale 95 carafoam 5, If i want murky rather than hazey 90 pale 5 cara 5 oats. I find murky is sometimes really good to get that tropicana no pulp silky juice mouthfeel if you add a **** ton of mosaic in wp and dry hop. though i dont often add oats. I whirlpool at 45C for 30/45 min depending on how bitter its getting.
Until tried all of the above i wasnt getting anything special, i know am very close in terms of mouthfeel and i think the esters are really popping out with the hops. My set experimental hop blend i use is 40 citra 40 amarillo 10 simcoe, seep some of that in 50c water and try it and tell me you dont make all your ipas with that ratio!
So ye really pasionfruity, peachy, orange type citrus smell, i find hints of a really good fruit shop here in spain those with fruit flies (those are the best) an almost over ripe tuttifruity smell. i think the esters from the mangrove jack just blend with some of the hydrocarbons to give a general background sweetness to the body of the aroma, never got any spicyness from it, or maybe perhaps a slight hint of clove but i think if so it just helps make it fragrant imo. I find simcoe here in spain at least is very resiney but it provides a beautiful pungency that makes the beer stink.
Taste is beautiful, resemlbes the smell but backed by subtle yet complementing sweet maltyness, however it was not intense as i rember doppleganger for instance, maybe its that t58...
I am bottle carbing, and not thought about using a conditioning yeast, but it makes total sense. Need a keg as well, but ive had pretty good results bottling, even better when i started using putting co2 in the bottling bucket, and getting a neigbour to cap as we go hehe. Beers never last longer than 10/12 days and they usually there isnt much of a decline in taste nor aroma.
Im very appreciative of all the input, I will have to try the fermentis yeasts though i find the beers im making excellent theyre not that exagerated in your face like i remember the treehouse julius or doppleganger. Perhaps these yeasts will help me a lot on my quest. Im there in the aromas and taste but i need to amp them up by 60% or more i think. I hnestly think the hops out here are kind of ****, usually use around 400/500 g per 20 liters, tried more but pretty sure it hits diminishing returns much more than that. All wp and dry hop, if i use the amounts a lot of you mention i will get a generic hop aroma without the pronounced notes of each strain, and little to no taste (in comprarisson with treehouse). Ive compensated that by having a sweeter finishing beer and adding no boil hops as well as whpooling at low temp sothat i can add a lot of hops with just the right bitterness.
Ive had good results in mouthfeel with both ratios of chloride to sulfate, though i need to experiment more, and perhaps add more, i keep ppms fairly low, i believe after having read a lot of youses chemistry. I do feel increasing my mash ph, 5.4 helped with mouthfeel and hazeyness when brewing without oats
Im a bit sceptical about giving up these two yeasts but from reading the thread it really seems the t58 gives a nice kick to it! How would you feel about 7/2/1 or 8/2/1 for 1070is? grams that is. With the same method i been going, pitch high temp wait til theyre kinda half way cool them down. Any advices or precautions with these yeast strains? Can they handle 16/15c in case it drops a degree more than normal? Also using a yeast like cdc1 makes perfect sense to combat oxidation and guarantee less degraded product and better carbonation, clever. I honestly thought they all force carbonated but i just love the huge bubbles i get with natural carbonation, theres a god place with new englands where i live and i always think thamn where are those big silky bubbles??
I also plan on ****ing around with pectinase and betaglucosidase see if i can get an extra punch out of the terpene bound glycosides since hops here are kinda mediocre if not bad (at least in comparisson with whats in america).
Late as hell but always glad to find others on a similar quest!
Big love from spain!
(lost sd card with pics
once i find i shall upload my fav thus far once i find it!)
