Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[NJGeorge]

For dry hopping it was like
DH1: 100g (4oz)
DH2: 125g (5oz)
Keg: 100g (4oz)

You're kidding... Dude! holy that's a lot of hops! Crap, now I wish I keg hopped..

 

[melville]

Did you still add the cdc1? How do the bubbles compare to when you have done natural carbing?

I did not add the CBC-1. I don't know if I notice a difference in bubbles, because overall the beer is just softer — note that isn't better because I forced carbed, but because I changed my water additions (subbed half the CaCl with NaCl but with the same overall Sulfate:chloride ratio as previous attempts). I wouldn't be surprised to find it softer still by naturally carbing, but while I experiment with KCl for a few I'll just force carb so I can compare to this one.

 

[melville]

You're kidding... Dude! holy that's a lot of hops! Crap, now I wish I keg hopped..

I bumped things a bit because the beer was bigger, DIPA vs. IPA.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I went to treehouse for the first time in ten months, since I really started chasing how to replicate their beers. I have to say, either I have had a huge palate shift/development since I've started making and drinking these hoppy creations en masse or somehow the treehouse quality has gone down since expanding to their new brewery. I'm inclined to believe the former. I've long lauded treehouse as the premier hazeboys and have repeatedly said Julius is the best IPA in the world but things done changed. That 'magic' character that I found across most of treehouse offerings weren't present in the aroma when I cracked a fresh Lights On, the flavor not as hop saturated, and the mouthfeel not as soft and pillowly as I remembered. I found the same general feeling in a can of Sap.

Quality has gone down since switching facilities. I was unimpressed

 

[NJGeorge]

Quality has gone down since switching facilities. I was unimpressed

I'm not surprised by this as they have to figure out all that new equipment and slowly work up to full capacity. Who knows, maybe the water is even different there. So I'm not surprised the beer wasn't the same. I noticed that as well this September when I was there. The Julius wasn't the same, however, the Green was very good.

 

[Cevan65]

They are selling 16 Green pp tomorrow. The GF and I will be getting the full load. I will report back.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Have you noticed any change in the beers hop flavor and aroma after letting it natural carb (warm) for a week with the beers that you didnt keg hop? I didn't keg hop this batch. Hope my hoppiness doesn't diminish sitting warm for a week... I kinda wish I forced carbed this one.

I haven't done a back to back, but I've been very pleased with the hop character in several NEIPAs I've bottle conditioned. Of course I'll never know if the hop character diminished over the 12 days i kept the bottles warm. But even if it did, the batches still blasted me in the face with tropical fruit and citrus every time I opened and poured a bottle.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Nice! I used 8oz total for this beer. How much have you been using for 2.5 gal?

I used the same oz/gal as you in the batch I just packaged, 16 oz total for a 5 gal batch.

I had actually been planning to use 22 oz (that 6 oz difference would have been all in the dry hop) but I literally couldn't fit them in. Funny story. I wanted to skip the cold crash for this, because I'm on a schedule for the holidays and also I didn't want to expose the WB-06 to low temps during conditioning. Not sure how valid that concern is yet. So I decided to dry hop in very loosely packed nylon sacks weighted down with stainless ball bearings, which I haven't done for years. Last time I dry hopped in bags was in the old days when I used to use secondaries. The bags sank at first, and then floated. My theory is that they entrained a whole bunch of CO2 from the (relatively) active fermentation. But that added a ton of volume to the fermenter and the liquid level rose up. So I couldn't fit the last 6 oz in there.

Anyway, the hydrometer sample tasted and smelled super hoppy despite all that. I'll report back when I start breaking into the batch, but i think you're a little ahead of me.

 

[KLITE]

I did not add the CBC-1. I don't know if I notice a difference in bubbles, because overall the beer is just softer — note that isn't better because I forced carbed, but because I changed my water additions (subbed half the CaCl with NaCl but with the same overall Sulfate:chloride ratio as previous attempts). I wouldn't be surprised to find it softer still by naturally carbing, but while I experiment with KCl for a few I'll just force carb so I can compare to this one.

Man I will never forget the first wheat beer i ever brewed (first and last cause i dont like percievable amounts of wheat in a beer, you know that wheat malt taste argh). I had bubbles that were literally too big to be true! im talking easily 2mm wide. Ive never had bubbles that big again! From what i gather force carbing makes for tiny fizzy crap and if not propperly carbed beers go flat very quick, seen that in some places. Yet they still have the balls to try and charge you 5/7 euro a pint, piss off!

ps: How much are you fellas paying for hops where you are? How good are they, as in how complex is their aromatic profile? Kinda wanna compare cause i think its one of the factors hindering me in getting that treehouse stench.
Ill never forget that doppleganger jesus, i could smell it a good foot away from the glass and somehow the flavour was even more intense than the smell. ****ing unthinkable.
Have any of yous used or seen the cryogenic supercritical hop extractions?

 

[KLITE]

I'm not surprised by this as they have to figure out all that new equipment and slowly work up to full capacity. Who knows, maybe the water is even different there. So I'm not surprised the beer wasn't the same. I noticed that as well this September when I was there. The Julius wasn't the same, however, the Green was very good.

Totally agree. Some friend who own a brewery when they changed to the big 3.3hl fermentors screwe up their signature neipa a good 4 or 5 times before it became similar to the smaller system, then another so many to get it right, now its better than before every single batch.
I doubt in a few months it will be rockin again. When it is i need to see if i can get one of you fellas to ship me a few cans to spain hehe

 

[InityBrew]

I didn't want to expose the WB-06 to low temps during conditioning.

What is the theory behind this? What effect does the low temps possibly have on this strain?

Also - Update on my latest batch -- Showed signs of fermentation early Monday morning and is still going strong at 61/62 degrees. The lower temp really slowed this one down. I added the first addition on Tuesday morning and have had to gently swirl the carboy a few times a day because most of the hops were sitting on top of the krausen. they are finally going into solution and i think that i will add another dry hop tomorrow and let it rise to 65. Hopefully i am still on target to keg on sunday.

Thanks!

 

[Cevan65]

Quality has gone down since switching facilities. I was unimpressed

Bought 16 Green and 8 Haze yesterday. Had a Green last night. It tasted just as good as the ones I bought from the Monson facility. I hope someone cracks the code here because that beer is still a top three beer for me.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

What is the theory behind this? What effect does the low temps possibly have on this strain?

Nah, the more I think about it the more I realize it was really just an irrational fear. I read some stuff a while back that i thought was credible that said that higher temps with a hefe yeast tend to emphasize esters over phenols. It was interesting though, one of the articles describes it as different functions of temperature, i.e. that both esters and phenols are increased with increasing temp, but esters increase so much more than phenols that it's hard to perceive them in beers fermented at higher temps. I posted the articles a bunch of pages ago, but it's going to be easier to find them and post the links again than to find the post.

Anyway, I realized this was an irrational fear of cold crashing with natural carbing because:
1) the minimal amount of sugar for conditioning isn't going to make enough esters or phenols to compete with what is already in the beer from primary fermentation.
2) I would think the CBC-1 would ferment the bulk of the priming sugar because it is packaged with sterols and nutrients and I would imagine the WB-06 would be somewhat nutrient depleted at that stage.

In the future, I would not hesitate to cold crash this yeast blend.

Here are the links:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/21/fermentation-temperature-pt-9-wlp300-hefeweizen-ale-yeast/

http://beerandwinejournal.com/german-wheat-beer-iii/

http://beerandwinejournal.com/german-wheat-beer-iv/

 

[Jmash]

Quality has gone down since switching facilities. I was unimpressed

I have noticed this with the last batches of Julius and Doppleganger. Green and Haze still taste great IMO.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I have noticed this with the last batches of Julius and Doppleganger. Green and Haze still taste great IMO.

I didn't have Green. Maybe I should have. Perhaps there is a bad hop batch shared between Julius and others. Sap wasn't very good either, and unless Chinook is a significant component of Julius, that may not be it.

 

[aac5269]

Tried brewing a really simple new england pale ale using a very basic malt profile and the blend of three dry yeasts. Here are the bullet points

• Only used 2-row, Munich, and some maltodextrin (try to beef up body)
• Used Magnum to bitter
• Did a 30 min hop stand with 1oz citra, 1oz amarillo, and 1oz centennial
• Pitched S-04 upfront at about 68/70F
• Pitched the WB-06 and T-58 with 1 oz of dry hops (amarillo) on day 2 and temp stayed constant
• Fermented for about 2.5 weeks
• Added a 2 oz "west coast" style dry hop (city and amarillo) to try to drive the aroma up
• Continued to bubble and would have continued but I cold crashed

I did not get much haze from the WB-06 and am thinking about pitching that upfront the next time I brew this style.

Also the fact that it was actively fermenting for close to three weeks makes me think that the CBC is also used to halt fermentation of the three yeasts they use.

Has a great aroma, good body for what was designed to be a 5.5% beer. The flavor though seems to be lacking any kind of nuance and some of the fruit notes that come along with the Tree House beers I have. Used Magnum to bitter and that came through nicely. There is a balancing bitterness to the maltodextrin/unferemented sugars that are still in the beer because I cold crashed while still bubbling. Ultimately its another attempt I will learn from. This style is such an enigma.

Tried to upload a picture...hope it works!

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Tried brewing a really simple new england pale ale using a very basic malt profile and the blend of three dry yeasts. Here are the bullet points

• Only used 2-row, Munich, and some maltodextrin (try to beef up body)
• Used Magnum to bitter
• Did a 30 min hop stand with 1oz citra, 1oz amarillo, and 1oz centennial
• Pitched S-04 upfront at about 68/70F
• Pitched the WB-06 and T-58 with 1 oz of dry hops (amarillo) on day 2 and temp stayed constant
• Fermented for about 2.5 weeks
• Added a 2 oz "west coast" style dry hop (city and amarillo) to try to drive the aroma up
• Continued to bubble and would have continued but I cold crashed

I did not get much haze from the WB-06 and am thinking about pitching that upfront the next time I brew this style.

Also the fact that it was actively fermenting for close to three weeks makes me think that the CBC is also used to halt fermentation of the three yeasts they use.

Has a great aroma, good body for what was designed to be a 5.5% beer. The flavor though seems to be lacking any kind of nuance and some of the fruit notes that come along with the Tree House beers I have. Used Magnum to bitter and that came through nicely. There is a balancing bitterness to the maltodextrin/unferemented sugars that are still in the beer because I cold crashed while still bubbling. Ultimately its another attempt I will learn from. This style is such an enigma.

Tried to upload a picture...hope it works!

Nice! What was your batch size and how many grams of each yeast did you use?

 

[aac5269]

Nice! What was your batch size and how many grams of each yeast did you use?

It was a three gallon batch and I used 8 grams S-04, and 3 grams each of WB-06 and T-58

 

[Cevan65]

14g of yeast seems like a lot for 3 gallons. Why so much?

Most people here have been using less than 10% on the 58 and 06 but you went with ~21% each. Interesting.

This weekend I'll be using 1318 in a three gallon batch with a pinch of 58 and 06, maybe .5g each.

 

[thunderaxe]

...it was actively fermenting for close to three weeks...
...
The flavor though seems to be lacking any kind of nuance and some of the fruit notes that come along with the Tree House beers I have.

3 weeks in the FV would probably lose a bunch of that hop flavour nuance... i think part of the key to this style is packaging and serving as quickly as possible.

 

[Jwin]

Slightly off topic, but on topic at this point I suppose.I am kegging 10g tomorrow.
Anyone have any input on a low oxygen uptake/intake for keg hopping?
I'm divided on a lot of things here.
I am putting one oz cryo in each keg.(citra and Mosaic, respectively)
I could keg condition with sugar, and while I think it would be best as far as o2 is concerned, I'm already at 12 days on this beer and don't want to wait until day 20 to drink.
I usually purge with sanitizer, headspace, etc, and transfer by pushing the beer from the Speidel with co2.
I see a few ways to go here, without keg conditioning.
1) purge as usual, then open keg lid prior to filling, add hop bag slowly while feeding a few psi into the liquid tube, seal, fill, purge headspace
2)don't purge, drop the hops in, do the old school 7x at 3psi, fill, purge headspace.
3)add some priming sugar to the fermentor in the morning before work to get more co2 in solution, then do #1 after work(I usually take care of #2 in the morning before work). Caveat here is it would fully ferment over 10 hours. I figure most would.
5) because option number 4 never works, ask any engineer. Suspend cryo hops in a priming solution (boiled, cooled). Add to a Gatorade or similar wide mouth bottle and add it to fermentor in the morning. Transfer to kegs after work using usual purge methods and leave at 75 in the fermentation chamber for a few days.

Any of these options look better than others? I think the last one is most o2 proof, even more so than keg conditioning with the hops in the kegs, but I will loose the awesomeness that is keg hopped beer.
I over think stuff.
Cheers, and thanks for any feedback.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Slightly off topic, but on topic at this point I suppose.I am kegging 10g tomorrow.
Anyone have any input on a low oxygen uptake/intake for keg hopping?
I'm divided on a lot of things here.
I am putting one oz cryo in each keg.(citra and Mosaic, respectively)
I could keg condition with sugar, and while I think it would be best as far as o2 is concerned, I'm already at 12 days on this beer and don't want to wait until day 20 to drink.
I usually purge with sanitizer, headspace, etc, and transfer by pushing the beer from the Speidel with co2.
I see a few ways to go here, without keg conditioning.
1) purge as usual, then open keg lid prior to filling, add hop bag slowly while feeding a few psi into the liquid tube, seal, fill, purge headspace
2)don't purge, drop the hops in, do the old school 7x at 3psi, fill, purge headspace.
3)add some priming sugar to the fermentor in the morning before work to get more co2 in solution, then do #1 after work(I usually take care of #2 in the morning before work). Caveat here is it would fully ferment over 10 hours. I figure most would.
5) because option number 4 never works, ask any engineer. Suspend cryo hops in a priming solution (boiled, cooled). Add to a Gatorade or similar wide mouth bottle and add it to fermentor in the morning. Transfer to kegs after work using usual purge methods and leave at 75 in the fermentation chamber for a few days.

Any of these options look better than others? I think the last one is most o2 proof, even more so than keg conditioning with the hops in the kegs, but I will loose the awesomeness that is keg hopped beer.
I over think stuff.
Cheers, and thanks for any feedback.

What if you did 5, but instead of adding the hops/primer to the fermenter before work you added them to a sanitized/purged keg and then purged it again? Then get home from work, add any additional conditioning yeast that you might want to the fermenter and then fill the keg from it. Purge the headspace and leave at room temp to condition. This way none of the primer would ferment before you transfer, and you might get more O2 scavenging with more fermentables left post transfer.

I might be concerned about leaving the cryo hops in a high pH liquid for that long, even at low temp. Although I guess cryo hops don't have all that plant matter so maybe that's not a valid concern (maybe not even a valid concern for regular old hop pellets). Anyway, if you were concerned maybe just use DME instead of sugar in the primer, that'll drop the pH.

Just my two cents.

 

[Jwin]

What if you did 5, but instead of adding the hops/primer to the fermenter before work you added them to a sanitized/purged keg and then purged it again? Then get home from work, add any additional conditioning yeast that you might want to the fermenter and then fill the keg from it. Purge the headspace and leave at room temp to condition. This way none of the primer would ferment before you transfer, and you might get more O2 scavenging with more fermentables left post transfer.

I might be concerned about leaving the cryo hops in a high pH liquid for that long, even at low temp. Although I guess cryo hops don't have all that plant matter so maybe that's not a valid concern (maybe not even a valid concern for regular old hop pellets). Anyway, if you were concerned maybe just use DME instead of sugar in the primer, that'll drop the pH.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for the feedback. Are you suggesting adding the Hop slurry directly to the keg? Or doing the priming and bagging the cryo?
This beer was my first with cryo(only used for both dryhops). I'm not sure if they are fine enough to clog a poppet or not. I'm not concerned about particulate in my beer when it comes to this style though.
I'm leaning towards only priming one of the kegs.l at this point as a bit of an experiment to see which one holds up better over time.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Thanks for the feedback. Are you suggesting adding the Hop slurry directly to the keg? Or doing the priming and bagging the cryo?
This beer was my first with cryo(only used for both dryhops). I'm not sure if they are fine enough to clog a poppet or not. I'm not concerned about particulate in my beer when it comes to this style though.
I'm leaning towards only priming one of the kegs.l at this point as a bit of an experiment to see which one holds up better over time.

I've only ever kegged hopped with regular (T90) pellets and I've always bagged my keg hops. Actually I've never used cryo at all. If i were to keg hop with cryo today, I would bag them, but only because that's what I've always done with pellets. I really don't know if bagging is necessary with cryo. But as long as your mesh is coarse enough on your bag I don't think it could hurt, and in my mind it's always nice to stack the odds against clogs. But yeah, I was suggesting doing the priming and bagging the cryo.

Priming only one keg would be a nice experiment. What was this recipe?

 

[Jwin]

Off the top of my head:
40% white wheat
50% rahr 2 row
4% oats(quick)
6% carafoam
No bittering addition, total hop rate just north of 5#/bbl, counting 2x weight for the cryo.
By order of most to least, Amarillo, citra, Mosaic, Sorachi Ace, Motueka in the kettle
Dryhop one was citra pellets and Mosaic cryo, 3/1

I've done a pale wheat with a similar hop combo, inspired by them lemon lime wheat/hefe thread.
Hoping to yield lemon-lime and a general citrus fruit flavor on it. First time building a full water profile from RO, some I'm pretty excited to see how I did.

 

[NJGeorge]

Took a little sample pour to see how the beer is naturally carbing and tasting. (day 5 in keg) Carb and color is good, however, its hard to tell at this point without the beer cold conditioning. I get the slightest hint of hefe or Belgian but its barely noticeable. Some of that juiciness and hop has faded slightly. Im putting it in the cold asap. Im not sure if carbing this way is ideal for these style beers. Next time I will either force carb or transfer to the keg with a few points left to go to let it carb up naturally without adding sugar (maybe day 4 or 5). Still going to add CBC with last dry hop addition to halt other yeast and help ferment the remaining sugar under pressure. Will report back in a week.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Took a little sample pour to see how the beer is naturally carbing and tasting. (day 5 in keg) Carb and color is good, however, its hard to tell at this point without the beer cold conditioning. I get the slightest hint of hefe or Belgian but its barely noticeable. Some of that juiciness and hop has faded slightly. Im putting it in the cold asap. Im not sure if carbing this way is ideal for these style beers. Next time I will either force carb or transfer to the keg with a few points left to go to let it carb up naturally without adding sugar (maybe day 4 or 5). Still going to add CBC with last dry hop addition to halt other yeast and help ferment the remaining sugar under pressure. Will report back in a week.

I feel like the phenols tend to fade quite a bit over time with this yeast blend. Might be gone after a few more days of conditioning. At least that was my experience with my last attempt that was up in the 7s% WB-06. That one never had its phenols fade completely, but it started with a lot and it came down a lot as well.

How many days in did you keg this one again? Did you add primer or use the last few points to carb up?

 

[NJGeorge]

I feel like the phenols tend to fade quite a bit over time with this yeast blend. Might be gone after a few more days of conditioning. At least that was my experience with my last attempt that was up in the 7s% WB-06. That one never had its phenols fade completely, but it started with a lot and it came down a lot as well.

How many days in did you keg this one again? Did you add primer or use the last few points to carb up?

I kegged the beer after one week in the primary. It was day five in the keg when I tried it. I used priming sugar and CBC to carb. It’s now in the fridge. It’s Also not as hoppy as the FG sample.

 

[hydromaddicted]

I just brewed 13 bbls of 88-10-2 yeast blend after reading through this whole thread. It sounded like a good starting point. I'm fermenting at 65 to be on the safe side of my fermenters.

75.9% Premium Pils
13.8% Golden Promise
6.9% Pale Wheat
3.4% Crystal Light

2lbs Citra Mash Hop
150gma El Dorado Co2 extract 10 min
7lbs Eldorado -5 min
7lbs Citra -5 min
7lbs Denali -5 min

4 litres per min O2
K.O. 64
Ferment 65
15 Plato post boil
Dry Hop after 2 days 5lbs each
2nd Dry Hop 6th day 5lbs each and 11lbs of Citra cryo.

 

[NJGeorge]

I just brewed 13 bbls of 88-10-2 yeast blend after reading through this whole thread. It sounded like a good starting point. I'm fermenting at 65 to be on the safe side of my fermenters.

75.9% Premium Pils
13.8% Golden Promise
6.9% Pale Wheat
3.4% Crystal Light

2lbs Citra Mash Hop
150gma El Dorado Co2 extract 10 min
7lbs Eldorado -5 min
7lbs Citra -5 min
7lbs Denali -5 min

4 litres per min O2
K.O. 64
Ferment 65
15 Plato post boil
Dry Hop after 2 days 5lbs each
2nd Dry Hop 6th day 5lbs each and 11lbs of Citra cryo.

Nice! Have you brewed with these yeasts before? Did you try it on a small scale before brewing 15bbl? No offense or anything, but that’s kinda ballsy if it was your first shot lol

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I just brewed 13 bbls of 88-10-2 yeast blend after reading through this whole thread. It sounded like a good starting point. I'm fermenting at 65 to be on the safe side of my fermenters.

75.9% Premium Pils
13.8% Golden Promise
6.9% Pale Wheat
3.4% Crystal Light

2lbs Citra Mash Hop
150gma El Dorado Co2 extract 10 min
7lbs Eldorado -5 min
7lbs Citra -5 min
7lbs Denali -5 min

4 litres per min O2
K.O. 64
Ferment 65
15 Plato post boil
Dry Hop after 2 days 5lbs each
2nd Dry Hop 6th day 5lbs each and 11lbs of Citra cryo.

Awesome! How much total yeast did you pitch? Did you pitch dry or rehydrate?

 

[NJGeorge]

The only issue with everyone thinking that CBC-1 is killing everything is that I’m sure there are plenty of people whom have harvested yeast from a TH beer and brewed a beer of their own with it and said beer definitely had flavor impact from T-58 and or WB-06 which meant they were active during fermentation therefore not killed by any CBC-1. I know I speak from experience.

After going through some of the old threads and after reading this, it doesn't make sense naturally carbing the beer at room temp for a week post primary fermentation even though we add CBC. As said before, they might be spunding at the tail end of fermentation and then cold conditioning the beer so the other yeast do not continue to ferment and change the flavor of the beer. What are your thoughts on this in regards to carbonation and further fermentation of the supporting yeast?

 

[KLITE]

I just brewed 13 bbls of 88-10-2 yeast blend after reading through this whole thread. It sounded like a good starting point. I'm fermenting at 65 to be on the safe side of my fermenters.

75.9% Premium Pils
13.8% Golden Promise
6.9% Pale Wheat
3.4% Crystal Light

2lbs Citra Mash Hop
150gma El Dorado Co2 extract 10 min
7lbs Eldorado -5 min
7lbs Citra -5 min
7lbs Denali -5 min

4 litres per min O2
K.O. 64
Ferment 65
15 Plato post boil
Dry Hop after 2 days 5lbs each
2nd Dry Hop 6th day 5lbs each and 11lbs of Citra cryo.

Glad to have your input, could you share the gravities at which you dry hopped? Also at what rate have you pitched the yeasts? How is it stinking through fermentation?

For my personal taste, i have much prefered the neipas ive tried without any lager malt. That said there is a certain appeal to the colour it produces in this style with the haze.. imo yet again

Pls keep us update with the progress if you can, itd be greatly appreciated.

After going through some of the old threads and after reading this, it doesn't make sense naturally carbing the beer at room temp for a week post primary fermentation even though we add CBC. As said before, they might be spunding at the tail end of fermentation and then cold conditioning the beer so the other yeast do not continue to ferment and change the flavor of the beer. What are your thoughts on this in regards to carbonation and further fermentation of the supporting yeast?

What you say makes total sense me pal.
Spunding at the tail end, as someone aforementioned, can still be considered as ''natural carbonated beer''. For us homebrwers it could perhaps be translated into different carbonation volumes in the final product but, lets be serious: if it tastes, stinks and drinks like ambrosia no one can tell a significant difference dif between 2.0 and 2.5 vol in terms of mouthfeel... or am i mistaken?

Then what is the role of cbc or f2? Could it be they are just slightly raising the temperatue with cbc to promote quicker carbonation (and cleaning?) and kill the strains used for the fermentation process in order to diminish undesirable phenolic formation?
I think its fairly clear from OPs research that something similar to cbc1 is indeed used in many of their beers. So it must! have an important role to play in the final product. **** im so dazed and confused..

On an unrelated note heres my last brew (i too see the crappy head), total of 650g of hops were added (ye i know im crazy). I wanted to experiment how far oats can take you in mouthfeel and conclusion is not that far. I normally add 5 to 8% this time i added a whooping 20%, i did however do a short beta glucan rest at 50C for 30 in order to have an easier time with sparging. grain bill was 80pale 20oats
I do have to say mouthfeel is nearly spectacular for a slightly undercarbed beer, especially considering its at 7.5% abv... Though that could be partially due to the lack of body in the beer? Its tongue coating extremely well balanced in terms of bitterness and sweetness. The hop oils go as far as coating the underside of your tongue but without being overwhelming, however there is no significant hop flavour or aroma (i attribute that to the **** hops i get, this batch of citra and simcoe i got literally smell generically like hops without much aromatic complexity).
There is a slight banana/vanilla background to the aroma with 0 clove that is supporting the bouquet, although in previous attempts it was a lot more accentuated and i feel that imparts a great deal to that aroma complexity of the beer. That said when poring it does stinkup the kitchen a fair amount, but that same aroma pungency is not found when whiffing the glass...
This was 9g london esb 1g MJ bavarian for a 1079ish at 23/25c for 24h then down to 17ish for remainder, twice dry hopped once 24h in and second when fg was reached and cold crashed for 1 day after fg was stable at 1021. For that high gravity beer it slides down far too well....
I think cold crashing before 2nd dry hopping was a mistake, my premise was that if the heaviest particles drop before last dry hopping, less essential oils would coat aforementioned particles before cold precipitation hence more in suspension for enhanced aroma/taste. Well it didnt go as well as previous attempts without cold crashing, go figure.

If anyone could point me to a good place to get ridiculously stinky hops (im talking neighbours complaing ab smell of hops vacuum sealed 5 times and inside a freezer type of stink) please please let me know! I can get hops at wholesale price but im starting to think id be fine paying 3 to 4 times the price im paying a kg if they were actually amazing hops.

Ps: **** my posts are prolly too long but i dunno how to make em shorter. Big brewing love from Spain! sorry if my english isnt the best, i hope my contributions are somewhat useful.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

After going through some of the old threads and after reading this, it doesn't make sense naturally carbing the beer at room temp for a week post primary fermentation even though we add CBC. As said before, they might be spunding at the tail end of fermentation and then cold conditioning the beer so the other yeast do not continue to ferment and change the flavor of the beer. What are your thoughts on this in regards to carbonation and further fermentation of the supporting yeast?

I would imagine that cold crashing to halt fermentation isn't really a viable option for a commercial brewery. On the homebrew scale maybe, because you are more likely to be able to guarantee what temp your beer is exposed to after it's done. But if I were a pro brewer I wouldn't want to risk that my canned beers could turn into gushers with reactivated yeast if someone received a case in, say, Florida. You could say that the CBC-1 could halt the more attenuative yeast, but as @couchsending and others have experienced, the CBC-1 isn't a viable way to do that completely.

Just speculation of course. But my money is on primary ferment with the trio, ferment out, naturally carb with CBC-1 but with additional dry hops and then canning. I think on the homebrew scale this would be analogous to keg conditioning with CBC-1 with a keg hop charge and then transferring to a serving keg, which I think is what I'm going to try on my next attempt.

 

[melville]

After going through some of the old threads and after reading this, it doesn't make sense naturally carbing the beer at room temp for a week post primary fermentation even though we add CBC. As said before, they might be spunding at the tail end of fermentation and then cold conditioning the beer so the other yeast do not continue to ferment and change the flavor of the beer. What are your thoughts on this in regards to carbonation and further fermentation of the supporting yeast?

I don't know how you get to their 18-21 day grain to glass without the beer conditioning for a week to two weeks, be it natural or forced.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I don't know how you get to their 18-21 day grain to glass without the beer conditioning for a week to two weeks, be it natural or forced.

Agreed.

 

[NJGeorge]

I don't know how you get to their 18-21 day grain to glass without the beer conditioning for a week to two weeks, be it natural or forced.

I'm just thinking out loud. But maybe 7 days primary fermentation with spunding at the end and two weeks cold conditioning? Or like you guys are saying, 7 days primary, then natural carb with more dry hops for around a week, and then cold condition another week. Just ideas. Really wish I kegged hopped now while natural carbing because the sample pour I took last night (two days in fridge) is not that hoppy :-(

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm just thinking out loud. But maybe 7 days primary fermentation with spunding at the end and two weeks cold conditioning? Or like you guys are saying, 7 days primary, then natural carb with more dry hops for around a week, and then cold condition another week. Just ideas. Really wish I kegged hopped now while natural carbing because the sample pour I took last night (two days in fridge) is not that hoppy :-(

Yeah, I'm having a similar experience with the batch i just bottle conditioned. That awesome hop character I had in my first attempt (which was also pretty phenolic) is just not there. I naturally carbed that first one in the keg with CBC-1 and keg hopped. I also dry hopped that one loose in the fermenter and cold crashed to drop the hops, whereas this last one was in nylon bags. So I guess there's a couple of variables at play for me here unfortunately. Next time I'm going to go back to dry hopping loose and keg hopping as well.

I'll post my notes and pics soon, this latest batch isn't quite finished doing its thing in the bottle yet. I will say though, zero clove or other phenolic flavors so far.

 

[NJGeorge]

I would imagine that cold crashing to halt fermentation isn't really a viable option for a commercial brewery. On the homebrew scale maybe, because you are more likely to be able to guarantee what temp your beer is exposed to after it's done. But if I were a pro brewer I wouldn't want to risk that my canned beers could turn into gushers with reactivated yeast if someone received a case in, say, Florida. You could say that the CBC-1 could halt the more attenuative yeast, but as @couchsending and others have experienced, the CBC-1 isn't a viable way to do that completely.

Just speculation of course. But my money is on primary ferment with the trio, ferment out, naturally carb with CBC-1 but with additional dry hops and then canning. I think on the homebrew scale this would be analogous to keg conditioning with CBC-1 with a keg hop charge and then transferring to a serving keg, which I think is what I'm going to try on my next attempt.

I was thinking more on the homebrew scale. Maybe that's why Nate has said in a past article, he wouldn't want to drink his beers in say California. I understand what you're saying though now. Ferment out, so there are no other sugars left for those supporting yeast to eat even if they were to ship them at warmish temps. That's what I will be doing next time as well, ferment out and then natural carb with more dry hops, then cold condition for a week. All experimentation but we are getting closer! Another experiment that might help us on this this question, would be to get two cans of TH, keep one in the fridge and keep on warm, then check the gravities. I might be going next week so Ill give that a shot.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've been considering just doing all of my dry hopping with my carbonation gravity addition. I just wish I could somehow transfer to the serving vessel without losing aroma via the open gas post. I also don't want to transfer to the serving vessel with no fermentation activity left