Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[melville]

Question on using these dry yeasts: For those using part of a yeast package, are you vacuum sealing the rest? I brew 3 gallon batches and would need only a faction of a package of T-58 and WB-06.

I put mine in a Ziploc after spraying with starsan. Squeeze the air out and put back in the fridge. No issues so far.

 

[stonebrewer]

Question on using these dry yeasts: For those using part of a yeast package, are you vacuum sealing the rest? I brew 3 gallon batches and would need only a faction of a package of T-58 and WB-06.

I recommend if you get a VS that you get the one with the attachment hose and put the yeast in a glass jar, vacuum seal that puppy, and store in the freezer. Without O2 and frozen, that yeast will keep for damn near forever! Cheers!

 

[Cevan65]

I just picked up a nice Foodsaver VS with the mason jar attachments. Highly recommend it. Don't get the cheap ones. Ask me how I know.

I'm a 3 gallon brewer. Going to try 1318 with T-58 on my next batch. Will report back. This is a great read. Took me two nights to get through it all. Wish I had paid more attention in chemistry.

 

[TheHairyHop]

for whatever it's worth, I went to the brewery on Saturday and got beers on draft. They weren't as vibrant or fluffy as when I had cans before the Charlton brewery was up and running. I was wondering if it was the draft vs can effect or the new brewing system

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Attempt 2 is bubbling away! I'll post the full recipe with pics and all when it's done, but it was 91% S-04/6% T-58/3% WB-06. Pitched at 62F and fermenting at a controlled 63F ambient. I have diluted my brewing liquor with distilled for my NEIPAs in the past, including my first attempt with this trio. This time I wanted to blast it with the full force of my local water's alkalinity, so I didn't dilute at all. Used KCl to get me to 200ish ppm Cl and gypsum to get to 100ish ppm SO4. Ca was 55 ppm. Mash pH measured in at 5.79, which would normally make me pretty squeamish. I have to admit, it was a little higher than I was expecting, but I decided against adjusting it anyway. We'll see what happens.

I'm going to need to travel around for the holidays with a bunch of this batch, so I am planning on giving in to a spark of insanity and bottle conditioning this one. But... I am planning to use a purged keg as my bottling bucket and use CO2 to transfer to the keg and also to push it to my wand. Hopefully between the closed transfers, active yeast and O2 absorbing caps I'll be fairly protected against O2.

Should be bottling next weekend, I'll keep you guys posted!

 

[NJGeorge]

Finally got around to brew a 2.5 gal batch last night. Simple grist of 2-row, 20% carafoam, some 10L and honey malt. Did not rehydrate yeast. I used 88/10/2 measured out precisely to the decimal and just sprinkled in. Pitched at 75 and used a swamp cooler to bring it down to 64 overnight. Going to try to ferment at 60-62 as per @melville Will report back in a few...

 

[melville]

So this was my best effort yet.
Rahr 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 5% Vienna, 2.5% c20.

Blend 88|10|2

Fermented 62F

Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus
85 IBU OG 1.075. FG 1.016

Cut in some salt and Epsom for some of the CaCl and caso4 this time to get to a 225:100 water profile. Forced carbed, but definitely softer than before.

Would probably do 3.5 on the C20 next time to bring a tiny bit more sweet. Last time a bit too sweet, this time better, but I want a bit more.

 

[NJGeorge]

Looks awesome! @melville I think I remember you saying you need to add first dry hop addition like within 24 hours. When did you dry hop this one?

 

[melville]

Looks awesome! @melville I think I remember you saying you need to add first dry hop addition like within 24 hours. When did you dry hop this one?

Still put that first one in at 24hrs or thereabouts. Moved the second one to day 6 and let that sit for 48 hours at like 72F. Crashed, kegged, hopped again, and carbed up. Been on carb for 9 days, so this will get a bit better over the next week if experience is any guide (tiny bit of "green" left in the hops).

 

[NJGeorge]

Nice man. When you keg hop, do you use a mesh bag? Also, are you just throwing in the hops/priming sugar, close it up and purging as much as possible? I got one of those clear beer systems I might try for this so I can throw in loose hops in.

 

[melville]

Nice man. When you keg hop, do you use a mesh bag? Also, are you just throwing in the hops/priming sugar, close it up and purging as much as possible? I got one of those clear beer systems I might try for this so I can throw in loose hops in.

star san and push out, I throw it in, purge, close transfer, and purge. I have the filter screen over the dip tube than scott janish wrote about and it works quite well.

 

[Livinon2]

So this was my best effort yet.
Rahr 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 5% Vienna, 2.5% c20.

Blend 88|10|2

Fermented 62F

Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus
85 IBU OG 1.075. FG 1.016

Cut in some salt and Epsom for some of the CaCl and caso4 this time to get to a 225:100 water profile. Forced carbed, but definitely softer than before.

Would probably do 3.5 on the C20 next time to bring a tiny bit more sweet. Last time a bit too sweet, this time better, but I want a bit more.

View attachment 548601

Looks and sounds really nice!

What's your hopping rate in the kettle vs dry hop and total hop usage?
Do you feel the vienna brought anything to this version?
Has your OG been increasing with each batch? Noticing any changes?

FWIW I did a side by side with CBC-1 and force carb and couldn't tell a difference. I suspect they use it more for maintaining low oxygen levels at packaging.

 

[melville]

Looks and sounds really nice!

What's your hopping rate in the kettle vs dry hop and total hop usage?
Do you feel the vienna brought anything to this version?
Has your OG been increasing with each batch? Noticing any changes?

FWIW I did a side by side with CBC-1 and force carb and couldn't tell a difference. I suspect they use it more for maintaining low oxygen levels at packaging.

—Not in front of beer smith, so I'll need to get back to you on hopping rates.
—I'm using the Vienna (and C20) for color contributions — I know I get the nice orange color I like with it, but I really don't notice the flavor at this percentage.
—Past two brews I've upped the OG to check for "hotness" with this tandem, which they haven't been, super juice drinkable, and yeast still beast modes ("done" in a few days) with no problems. These two have had slightly lower attenuation though 77-78% vs 81-82%, don't know if it's fermentation temp or OG.
—Good theory on the CBC-1.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So this was my best effort yet.
Rahr 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 5% Vienna, 2.5% c20.

Blend 88|10|2

Fermented 62F

Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus
85 IBU OG 1.075. FG 1.016

Cut in some salt and Epsom for some of the CaCl and caso4 this time to get to a 225:100 water profile. Forced carbed, but definitely softer than before.

Would probably do 3.5 on the C20 next time to bring a tiny bit more sweet. Last time a bit too sweet, this time better, but I want a bit more.

View attachment 548601

That looks freaking delicious! How many actual grams of yeast did you use? Have you been pitching more total yeast for your higher gravity batches?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Just threw in my first round of dry hops last night at right around the 48 hour mark. Although I'm not super worried about O2, there was still a lot of activity at the 48 hour mark with this one, it was just coming off the high kräusen hump.

With my last attempt at this I threw the first round in at 24 hours.

 

[Cevan65]

So this was my best effort yet.
Rahr 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 5% Vienna, 2.5% c20.

Blend 88|10|2

Fermented 62F

Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus
85 IBU OG 1.075. FG 1.016

Cut in some salt and Epsom for some of the CaCl and caso4 this time to get to a 225:100 water profile. Forced carbed, but definitely softer than before.

Would probably do 3.5 on the C20 next time to bring a tiny bit more sweet. Last time a bit too sweet, this time better, but I want a bit more.

Did you control the fermentation temps or just let them go naturally? If no control, what was the ambient temp surrounding the fermentor? All the yeast pitched at once?

 

[melville]

That looks freaking delicious! How many actual grams of yeast did you use? Have you been pitching more total yeast for your higher gravity batches?

6 grams (half batches) and haven't adjusted for gravity.

 

[melville]

Did you control the fermentation temps or just let them go naturally? If no control, what was the ambient temp surrounding the fermentor? All the yeast pitched at once?

Naturally, but in an area that stays very realiably 62F during the winter. I've been pitching all at once.

 

[Jwin]

I'm still a few pages back, but back on blending. Listen to Kimmich here on Heady starting at 12:00

They blend 4 fermentations.
This makes the CBC make perfect sense. The CBC may be going into the tanks or the high attenuating fermentation(s), then blended with the lower attenuation strain(s). This would prevent the higher attenuation strains from fermenting residual sugars from the other ferments after being blended.

Cheers.

 

[Jwin]

This is where CBC-1's killer properties could become beneficial, to prevent refermentation of higher-FG beers by the higher-attenuating yeasts. It might even be added to the individual beers in order to deactivate the yeasts prior to blending.

And I got to the next page...

 

[InityBrew]

This thread is great.

So here was my attempt that i did 3 weeks ago.

Yeast: 90 / 4.5 / 4.5 - pitched dry
Mashed at 153
Water: 150 chloride / 50 sulfate (used CaCl)
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.012

Grain bill based off another Pale / IPA recipe i did
50/50 Golden Promise / 2 Row mix 68%
Vienna 12%
Flaked oats 10%
Golden Naked oats 4%
Carapils 6%

Hops: Galaxy, Citra, Hallertau Blanc

Fermented at 66-68 for 6 days
- dry hopped on day 2
- Kegged and carbonated with cbc while doing the 2nd dry hop on day 6.

Turned out good, great body to the beer has some tree house characteristics, but has a good amount of Belgian esters in the aroma and slightly in the flavor of the beer. Surprised by this because of the low percentages of the other two yeast

What has been the ideal mash temp for those who have brewed multiple batches?

Has anyone tried rehydrating the yeasts together and then pitching to reduce lag time?

Also, next time I plan on going with Melville's 88/10/2 and will try to get the beer in the 7-7.5 abv range and will use KCl instead of CaCl.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

This thread is great.

So here was my attempt that i did 3 weeks ago.

Yeast: 90 / 4.5 / 4.5 - pitched dry
Mashed at 153
Water: 150 chloride / 50 sulfate (used CaCl)
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.012

Grain bill based off another Pale / IPA recipe i did
50/50 Golden Promise / 2 Row mix 68%
Vienna 12%
Flaked oats 10%
Golden Naked oats 4%
Carapils 6%

Hops: Galaxy, Citra, Hallertau Blanc

Fermented at 66-68 for 6 days
- dry hopped on day 2
- Kegged and carbonated with cbc while doing the 2nd dry hop on day 6.

Turned out good, great body to the beer has some tree house characteristics, but has a good amount of Belgian esters in the aroma and slightly in the flavor of the beer. Surprised by this because of the low percentages of the other two yeast

What has been the ideal mash temp for those who have brewed multiple batches?

Has anyone tried rehydrating the yeasts together and then pitching to reduce lag time?

Also, next time I plan on going with Melville's 88/10/2 and will try to get the beer in the 7-7.5 abv range and will use KCl instead of CaCl.

I haven't experimented with mash temp (mashed high, ~158F on both attempts). However, I will say that on my first attempt, it had very, very little residual sweetness despite the high mash temp. I used some L10 on my second attempt to compensate, it's still in primary though.

When you say Belgian esters, do you mean esters (bubblegum, banana, other fruit) or do you mean phenols (clove, pepper, other spice)? I had a bunch of clove in my first attempt, it was about 7.5% WB-06 and 6.7% T-58. Also a bunch of wheat in the grist, which can bring out more clove.

I sprinkled in on my first attempt, but also pitched at 77F. On the attempt that's currently fermenting (3% WB-06, 6% T-58) I rehydrated and pitched at 62F. My lag time was much less pitching warm but the 62F pitch lag was also less than 12 hours.

What was your batch size and how many total grams did you pitch?

A little off topic, but out of curiosity, where did you come up with that hop combination? That exact combination is is supposedly used in another beer I would love to clone, Stillwater Superhop.

 

[InityBrew]

I haven't experimented with mash temp (mashed high, ~158F on both attempts). However, I will say that on my first attempt, it had very, very little residual sweetness despite the high mash temp. I used some L10 on my second attempt to compensate, it's still in primary though.

When you say Belgian esters, do you mean esters (bubblegum, banana, other fruit) or do you mean phenols (clove, pepper, other spice)? I had a bunch of clove in my first attempt, it was about 7.5% WB-06 and 6.7% T-58. Also a bunch of wheat in the grist, which can bring out more clove.

I sprinkled in on my first attempt, but also pitched at 77F. On the attempt that's currently fermenting (3% WB-06, 6% T-58) I rehydrated and pitched at 62F. My lag time was much less pitching warm but the 62F pitch lag was also less than 12 hours.

What was your batch size and how many total grams did you pitch?

A little off topic, but out of curiosity, where did you come up with that hop combination? That exact combination is is supposedly used in another beer I would love to clone, Stillwater Superhop.

I would say a mix of clove/spice with the faintest banana ester. Next time i will rehydrate and probably raise the mash to 155 and do a golden promise/2 row/vienna/c10-20/carapils malt bill.

Also, I did a 10 gallon batch, 5 gallons fermented with 11 g S04 and half a gram of each of T58/WB06. I fermented the other 5 gallons with Imperial Yeast Dry Hop since i have been using that a lot lately.

For the hop combo I am always trying new combinations and have really liked a few of the other beers I did with Hallertau Blanc as a complimenting hop. I also did a single hopped lager with it that turned out great too. Probably not assertive enough to do a single hopped ipa with, but it had some good melon characteristics that went will with a simple pilsner / vienna grain

 

[NJGeorge]

On day 3 now of fermentation. Added 1st round of dry hops after 24 hours. The aroma coming out of the fermenter is amazing. Nice haze to the beer. Fermenting between 60 and 65 degrees. Using a swamp cooler with ice packs so its a little tough holding a steady temp. As long as its below 65, it should be ok. Going to dry hop again tonight or maybe Friday. Don't think I'm going to do keg hops on this one. Keg Sunday.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

On day 3 now of fermentation. Added 1st round of dry hops after 24 hours. The aroma coming out of the fermenter is amazing. Nice haze to the beer. Fermenting between 60 and 65 degrees. Using a swamp cooler with ice packs so its a little tough holding a steady temp. As long as its below 65, it should be ok. Going to dry hop again tonight or maybe Friday. Don't think I'm going to do keg hops on this one. Keg Sunday.

Nice, sounds like you and I are on a similar schedule. I'm planning on packaging on Sunday as well. I added the first round of dry hops at 48 hours and raised the temp to 67F from where I started at 63F, then added more dry hops 48 hours after that, which was last night. May add more tonight, depending.

 

[savylemons]

Sounds like blending isn't out of the picture but not necessarily apart of the normal process. Guessing it's more for consistency sake than anything. Anybody know if this is standard practice in a commercial environment?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

View attachment 548941

Sounds like blending isn't out of the picture but not necessarily apart of the normal process. Guessing it's more for consistency sake than anything. Anybody know if this is standard practice in a commercial environment?

Very interesting. I am also curious to know how widespread the practice is. John Kimmich has confirmed that they blend beers from four different fermentations, as @Jwin posted a few posts ago.

Also wonder if it's "sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't" in the context of the fact the beers like Bright don't contain several yeast strains and Julius, Green, Haze, etc. do?

Thanks for asking them!

 

[Jwin]

In the case of Heady, I could see using a fermentation that was under pitched, along with one fermented warm and maybe two fermented at lower temps, all to coax different flavors out of the yeast.
I could see Nate doing a similar process, then, as I stated, killing off the lower attenuating strain(so4) with the CBC, to keep can grenades at bay.

 

[Jwin]

But, Kimmich has been using the same yeast -forever-, and knows so much about it, he could have totally different reasons. He did state at Nashville Home brew con that he doesn't go past 10 generations (or maybe less).

 

[couchsending]

I would be willing to bet kimmich doesn’t like what the larger FVs do to his yeast, and nothing more. It either has to do with the FV size or doing a double batch into one FV that affects the performance of the yeast when it’s pitched after the first batch, or something like that.

Conan is known to be a really odd yeast to work with.

 

[CSB.SK]

So this was my best effort yet.
Rahr 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 5% Vienna, 2.5% c20.

Blend 88|10|2

Fermented 62F

Galaxy, Amarillo, Simcoe, Columbus
85 IBU OG 1.075. FG 1.016

Cut in some salt and Epsom for some of the CaCl and caso4 this time to get to a 225:100 water profile. Forced carbed, but definitely softer than before.

Would probably do 3.5 on the C20 next time to bring a tiny bit more sweet. Last time a bit too sweet, this time better, but I want a bit more.

View attachment 548601

Hi, I've seen your progression of this yeast experiment. It is great work!
However, I don't still understand the calculation of yeast billion cell per gram for 88/10/2 ratio. Do you just go for 10 Billion per gram? Also, what mash temperature would be good to go with?

Thank you,

 

[Sawhorse-Josh]

Isn't it possible that the blending of FV's could be done for consistency/quality reasons. In other words, they combine different fermentations of the same beer. That way variations in the fermentations are averaged out and the beer is more consistent day to day, week to week. Just a thought.

 

[savylemons]

Very interesting. I am also curious to know how widespread the practice is. John Kimmich has confirmed that they blend beers from four different fermentations, as @Jwin posted a few posts ago.

Also wonder if it's "sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't" in the context of the fact the beers like Bright don't contain several yeast strains and Julius, Green, Haze, etc. do?

Thanks for asking them!

I thought about the bright possibility as well, but one would think a more accurate response would be along the lines of "certain beers are blended, certain beers are not." The response given sounds a lot more like sometimes they do but it's not necessarily standard practice. Makes sense to provide a more consistent product and possibly deal with instances such as an occasional over attenuated or under attenuated batch.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Isn't it possible that the blending of FV's could be done for consistency/quality reasons. In other words, they combine different fermentations of the same beer. That way variations in the fermentations are averaged out and the beer is more consistent day to day, week to week. Just a thought.

this is more likely in my eyes, or blending ones that have undergone different fermentation temps or hopping rates. Relying on CBC to prevent continued fermentation is not a guarantee. It's not as efficient or effective as pasteurization.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I thought about the bright possibility as well, but one would think a more accurate response would be along the lines of "certain beers are blended, certain beers are not." The response given sounds a lot more like sometimes they do but it's not necessarily standard practice. Makes sense to provide a more consistent product and possibly deal with instances such as an occasional over attenuated or under attenuated batch.

That's true too, definitely possible. At the end of the day, who knows. These guys are so cryptic in their responses. Understandably so I guess.

 

[NJGeorge]

Just pitched my second and last round of dry hops. I also added 2 g of CBC. I don’t think this has been done before yet in the primary fermenter. I’m going to keg Sunday or Monday and let it naturally carbonate in the keg for a week. Will report back in a couple of weeks.

 

[melville]

Re: kcl, was going to try this last brew, but tasted it — terrible. Does any of that filter through the process or do the K and the Cl go separate ways during the brewing process. Also — does a beer lower in Ca make for a softer beer, and why?

 

[melville]

Because this beer with added salt and Epsom is definitely softer than all previous attempts.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Re: kcl, was going to try this last brew, but tasted it — terrible. Does any of that filter through the process or do the K and the Cl go separate ways during the brewing process. Also — does a beer lower in Ca make for a softer beer, and why?

I'm wondering about this too. Well, I guess I'm in a slightly different boat. I used KCl in the last one that I'm planning on packaging in two days, so I'll be able to comment more then. I did taste some KCl before I brewed with it. Didn't taste bad to me, just salty. But I have heard many people say they object to it. Might be one of those things like cilantro and cluster hops that are supposed to taste vastly different to a lot of people. Also, I wonder if over the brewing process the K will bind to other molecules and taste different in the final product, like you said.

I always drink my hydrometer sample on brew day and take notes. The wort from this last batch with KCl tasted SUPER bitter. My mash pH was also very high at 5.79, so that could be the cause. I might do a batch at some point with low alkalinity and KCl to try to isolate the variable. Not saying that the wort bitterness is necessarily a predictor for the finished beer, because of course a lot goes on after that. But just compared to the worts from previous batches this one was much more bitter.

But as far as whether or not we need to minimize Ca for softness, IMO probably not. In the Alter Ego mineral results, they ended up at 34 ppm Ca. In that same article Michael's beer went from 150 ppm Ca to 90 ppm. I imagine that drop depends a lot on what anions are in your beer, some of which would come from water and some of which could come from your other ingredients. But what I'm trying to say is that I think it's possible to end up with 34 ppm in a finished beer with close to 100 ppm in the brewing liquor. That's enough to hit something like 150:75 Cl:SO4 with just gypsum and CaCl2. I guess you could supplement with NaCl/KCl/Epsom to hit 200:100 if you wanted to at that point, but i don't know if my palate could pick up on the difference between 150:75 and 200:100.

I don't know, just thinking out loud. Idea soup haha.

 

[NJGeorge]

Isn't it possible that the blending of FV's could be done for consistency/quality reasons. In other words, they combine different fermentations of the same beer. That way variations in the fermentations are averaged out and the beer is more consistent day to day, week to week. Just a thought.

This is what I thought when I heard he blends 4 different fermentations. All 4 were brewed/fermented the same with the same yeast and then blended together. Maybe its for capacity purposes, or like you said, consistency. Who knows. Doubt its different yeasts, but maybe its what Tree does. Lets see how these recent experiments turn out.