Is all grain is that much better or is it just that you have become a better brewer?

[Eugenio]

I see it as driving stick...maybe not necessary, but gives you options and oh so fun.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I answered "all experience" on the poll. I basically jumped straight into doing all grain and my first couple batches were all over the place. I couldn't stomach the cost of extract so I went straight for BIAB. I did have a couple extract batches before I switched to all grain and they were good but I wasn't happy with the customization aspect.

I know you can steep and stuff for extract batches to add your own personal spin. I didn't switch to AG to make better beer, because (ignoring equipment costs) its cheaper for the grain and now that I have my own mill I can start buying bulk making it cheaper. Quality of my beer or 'prestige', or bragging because I do all-grain never came into the equation for me. I do all-grain because its cheaper than extract(I'm sure theres way to get/do extract cheaper, but if I want to brew 3 or 4 weekends in a row, theres no way I can afford that doing extract).

(I keep small amounts of extract around for when I want to bump up a big batch of beer, as insurance, or just to make the beer that much higher gravity for funsies)

 

[PIGMAN]

I've been brewing for 7 years or so. I do fade in and out of it. I've done all three. While I have made a gruit and am about to make another, I mostly stick to hoppy and dark beers with the occasional wheat or rye thrown in. I have very little interest in any lagers or light beers outside of maybe someday making an Oktoberfest. I had a WW2 veteran who kind of had a shop but didn't really open it anymore because he was too old teach me how to brew with a basically unending supply of equipment to play with. I got to do all of them and usually drink a bunch of moonshine. He liked having someone to tell war stories to and liked to flirt with my wife when she came with. He is gone now.

I honestly could never tell a difference in similar beers being extract, partial, or all grain. I know the grain is cheaper(Well.. after 500 batches to make up for the 1k in equipment when you go crazy out of the gate, haha.) and that there is more variety, but I guess I am sort of boring. I sold the all grain equipment I had because I wasn't using it after I did my first BIAB experiment. I find that I am pretty happy with extract beers and there isn't really anything I haven't been able to make that I've wanted to.

I've done one partial and one BIAB in the last 3-4 years but mostly it has just been extracts. My beer has certainly gotten better and I often feel that my beer is better than commercial beers. Not just because I made it, it is honestly better to me.

How much of the "all grain is better" is because most people go to all grain fairly early in their brewing while they are still improving measurably vs the all grain actually tasting noticeably different? BIAB in a bag isn't too bad, but when I did the traditional mashing it kind of felt like I was making my own sugar to bake a cake vs just buying some sugar.

Are there all grain people who do extract batches regularly still? Have your extract batches gotten much better also?

I brewed with extract for three years, some were great, and a couple were clunkers. I did notice a certain flavor present in virtually all of the brews, that is not present in the five all-grains that I have since brewed. I agree that great beers can be brewed with extract, but much prefer my all-grain brews.

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

Without the switch to AG I wouldn't have upgraded the equipment. Without the upgraded equipment/understanding of the process/control over the process that AG brought then I would still be brewing inferior to what I am currently brewing.

I did AG the traditional way and then BIAB and then dropped back to mostly extract. I think my beers are still getting better, but it is mostly because I've gotten more patient.

I moved to all grain for one simple reason, color. I brewed a couple beers that should have been light and they weren't. While I have brewed a beer using the all grain method that was darker than it should have been, this was my fault because I over-boiled the wort. That has nothing to do with all grain or even PM.

Once I decided I wanted a true pale ale, I moved to all grain. Now I love being able to control my process completely, or completely within my own ability.

I've never worried about color. I know there are rules and the like for competitions, but I don't plan on entering anything into a competition.

I brewed with extract for three years, some were great, and a couple were clunkers. I did notice a certain flavor present in virtually all of the brews, that is not present in the five all-grains that I have since brewed. I agree that great beers can be brewed with extract, but much prefer my all-grain brews.

I think that flavor for me was just from not controlling temperatures during fermentation. Then again, it was mostly the cans with munton yeast or whatever that tasted that way. I've never had that twang with Northern Brewer extract and proper temps.








On a side note, this is making me want to get 2 kits, 1 AG and 1 extract, from Northern Brewer and brew them in the same exact temps at the same time from the same starter and see if one tastes different than the other.

 

[Zamial]

If you can't brew a good extract batch then you can't brew a good PM/AG batch either. There is exactly zero reason to move from extract to PM/AG unless you want more control. If you do not know why, what or how to control what you want, then you should not move to a more complex process. The concept that one way is better than the other is silly.

I brew extract when time is short to AG when I have more time available. Sometimes I grab wort from work and bring it home and boil it with steeping grains to alter it to my own desires.

 

[Hello]

I've never worried about color. I know there are rules and the like for competitions, but I don't plan on entering anything into a competition.

I wasn't doing it for competition. I just wanted a beer to be the color it was supposed to be...or close.

 

[passedpawn]

I've never worried about color. I know there are rules and the like for competitions, but I don't plan on entering anything into a competition.

The color of my beers is very important to me. So is clarity (filtered a bunch of Octoberfest two nights ago).

When I make pilsners, I'm very keen on both color and clarity being perfect.

I don't enter comps, and I'm really the only one who drinks my beer. Go figure.

 

[Black]

I do think switching all-grain led to and improvement of my brewing skills as well. I focused more on the process. I also find a great deal of satisfaction transforming those dry grains into liquid goodness.

For the cost part, as mentioned in previous posts, I've put so much money in my brewing rig that I don't even think I've offset the cost by now. The beer tastes better since I brew all-grain, however I'm not sure the extract I was getting before switching was top quality.

Excellent beer can be made both ways.


Cheers !

 

[denverd1]

What am enlightenment of a thread. Been brewing close to 10 years and have many extracts under the belt. I've only made 2 I wouldn't give away and those were fermentation/yeast issues.

I AM wanting to invest on more equipment to gain some control. I've also always noticed a dense burnt sugar flavor on some o the bigger beers I've done and now I know why.

Great thread. Thanks fellas.

Cheers

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

I wasn't doing it for competition. I just wanted a beer to be the color it was supposed to be...or close.

I don't think I've ever looked at a beer and thought "I don't like the color of this." I've made one or two that I thought might of looked nicer if they were redder maybe.

The color of my beers is very important to me. So is clarity (filtered a bunch of Octoberfest two nights ago).

When I make pilsners, I'm very keen on both color and clarity being perfect.

I don't enter comps, and I'm really the only one who drinks my beer. Go figure.

I can understand clarity, but not so much color. How far off are the colors that you don't enjoy the beer anymore? I don't brew lagers because I rarely drink them.

What am enlightenment of a thread. Been brewing close to 10 years and have many extracts under the belt. I've only made 2 I wouldn't give away and those were fermentation/yeast issues.

I AM wanting to invest on more equipment to gain some control. I've also always noticed a dense burnt sugar flavor on some o the bigger beers I've done and now I know why.

Great thread. Thanks fellas.

Cheers

Glad you enjoy it. It took me a minute to think of how I would post the question without turning it into a extract vs grain thread that resembled the bar fight in North to Alaska.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UhZeTaaus2Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Hello]

I don't think I've ever looked at a beer and thought "I don't like the color of this." I've made one or two that I thought might of looked nicer if they were redder maybe.







I can understand clarity, but not so much color. How far off are the colors that you don't enjoy the beer anymore? I don't brew lagers because I rarely drink them.

I didn't say (write) that I didn't like or enjoy the taste of my beers if they were the wrong colors. I just would like to brew my beer and have it come out to be close to the color it would be if I bought a commercial version.

You're hyper focused on this and it's causing you to put words in my mouth and not see how incredibly inane it is that you're so set on proving a point that doesn't exist. To what end? I do not know. I moved to all grain because I wanted my light beers (color wise) to be light and so forth. Since then a world of possibilities have opened. I normally only share my beer with neighbors and friends and never thought about placing in a competition. That's all I've written. It's not the end of the world that someone on the internet cares about the color of their beer and we're simply not going to agree. It is not supposed to be such a big deal that you continue to follow up as though it matters. ;-)

To throw you a bone, if it's the wrong color I still enjoy it just as much as long as it tastes good. I simply note for next time I should see what caused the color shift.

Do we have to hug it out?

 

[Dopeybrew]

I did AG the traditional way and then BIAB and then dropped back to mostly extract. I think my beers are still getting better, but it is mostly because I've gotten more patient.

If thats what works for you then great. However, this thread was asking everyone for their opinion of what made their beer better. FOR ME it was the upgrade in equipment, increase in knowledge, and control that AG brings to the table that makes my beer better today.

If the entire purpose of this thread was to defend extract brewing, I fail to see the purpose in it. If however, the purpose of the thread was actual curiosity then why do you feel the need to rush to the defense of extract at every turn?

I run autocross, to me extract is like running the track in an automatic. Its fun and you can turn in a great time once you get the basics down. But you are still limited by the gearing of the transmission(in regards to shift points and times of shifting). When you run the same track in a manual, you can turn in times that are better because you have complete control. Of course you can miss a shift and thrash your lap too, its a risk vs reward thing. But there is a higher degree of control that comes when you row your own gears vs having a computer do it for you(ever had a car shift in the middle of a corner?)

Now then the most important thing in both autocross and home brewing is to enjoy what you are doing. If you enjoy the beer that you produce using extract then great.

 

[Rotgut]

For me, it's mostly experience. I All Grain, Partial, BIAB, and extract brew, depending on my mood and available time. With experience, I've learned which styles of beer will work well with which method of brewing. In addition, my techniques for all brewing methods has improved, and I've acquired better equipment too. However... I don't do competitions, nor do I care much for color or clarity.

EDIT: To clarify... I do believe All Grain is an improvement over Extract. But I believe the biggest difference is experience. One can brew a great beer using any of the currently popular methods.

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

I didn't say (write) that I didn't like or enjoy the taste of my beers if they were the wrong colors. I just would like to brew my beer and have it come out to be close to the color it would be if I bought a commercial version.

You're hyper focused on this and it's causing you to put words in my mouth and not see how incredibly inane it is that you're so set on proving a point that doesn't exist. To what end? I do not know. I moved to all grain because I wanted my light beers (color wise) to be light and so forth. Since then a world of possibilities have opened. I normally only share my beer with neighbors and friends and never thought about placing in a competition. That's all I've written. It's not the end of the world that someone on the internet cares about the color of their beer and we're simply not going to agree. It is not supposed to be such a big deal that you continue to follow up as though it matters. ;-)

To throw you a bone, if it's the wrong color I still enjoy it just as much as long as it tastes good. I simply note for next time I should see what caused the color shift.

Do we have to hug it out?

I was just trying to understand why color would be a motivating factor. I guess I should compare it to gun restoration. I spent considerable time and effort making a shellac to be just the right color to restore a Mosin Nagant to original. I have never looked at my beers that way. Comere and give me a hug. lol.

If thats what works for you then great. However, this thread was asking everyone for their opinion of what made their beer better. FOR ME it was the upgrade in equipment, increase in knowledge, and control that AG brings to the table that makes my beer better today.

If the entire purpose of this thread was to defend extract brewing, I fail to see the purpose in it. If however, the purpose of the thread was actual curiosity then why do you feel the need to rush to the defense of extract at every turn?

I run autocross, to me extract is like running the track in an automatic. Its fun and you can turn in a great time once you get the basics down. But you are still limited by the gearing of the transmission(in regards to shift points and times of shifting). When you run the same track in a manual, you can turn in times that are better because you have complete control. Of course you can miss a shift and thrash your lap too, its a risk vs reward thing. But there is a higher degree of control that comes when you row your own gears vs having a computer do it for you(ever had a car shift in the middle of a corner?)

Now then the most important thing in both autocross and home brewing is to enjoy what you are doing. If you enjoy the beer that you produce using extract then great.

If you made an extract beer today, do you think it would be rival your all grain beers? Talking about it in this thread made me want to make a couple all grain beers. I'm going to make a gruit and a pliney clone this week and then I'll be on vacation. I am deciding what to make when I get back. The goal is to find something I couldn't make with extract correctly.

I think I spend too much time posting in political forums and I end up responding in a harsher way than I intend to. My apologies. I should relax and have a beer, right?

I did hot laps sometimes, my goal was not wrecking the car usually.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I have a 4 tap TDD4 kegerator, kegs, 4-5 CO2 tanks, a chest freezer, a portable AC, and a bunch of other things. Those aren't really from going all grain. I think most extract brewers would move on to kegs eventually.

Never meant to imply they wouldn't. I was just listing items to show I haven't spent a whole lot on equipment all round so its not like it costs billions to go AG or that you need a whole lot of equipment to brew AG. In the end it doesn't matter what equipment you have its what you do with it. That said it doesn't matter what means I take to get to the ends. As long as I have made beer I think is good doesn't matter if I made it extract or AG or Partial Mash or BIAB Full Boil etc etc etc . The AG or Extract argument will continue forever ,just as the aluminum or SS, or Glass Or Plastic... So I guess it would be that I just wanted to learn all aspects of brewing. I believe the world of water chemistry is up next. It never ends as long as we are all making beer it is ALL good. Some of my best beers have been extract and some AG so I don't think one is better than the other it all depends on what I am wanting to brew and time and materials available.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm about 8 years into the hobby, and I made the AG shift at batch #7. Haven't looked back since.

That said, I voted "Almost entirely experience". If you're talking about the quality of the beer, so very little of it has to do with extract vs AG as long as you're using good high-quality fresh ingredients. You can make absolutely *stellar* beer either way. And it comes down to the brewer, not the source of fermentables.

That said, I do agree with what others have said that you don't have as much control with extract as you do with AG. But the downside to control is that you have a LOT more things that you can screw up.

 

[kaconga]

About twice a year I make extract batches with new brewers. Hands down they are as delicious as my AG beers. Maybe more so. If anyone has had a direct improvement in beer quality by moving away from extract then they were using bad extract. My beers have been tasted by a certified judge and cicerone and he was surprised when I told him they weren't AG. One was partial mash and one was all extract with 2.5 lbs of corn sugar.

So some might question why I would do AG beers when my extract/PM batches were so good. It is the challenge. It takes more thought, planning and finesse to create great beer from grains than from extract. The beers might not actually taste better but they are far more rewarding. In the future I plan to continue doing both as well as some BIAB batches (currently don't) since each has its unique advantages and challenges.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I think the answer to your question rests in your answer to this one: Why do you brew beer?

If you are brewing because you want to make beer to drink and you enjoy the process then extract beers can probably fill your needs and give you a sense of satisfaction. As almost everyone else has agreed, a person can make excellent beer using extract kits.

I think that many of us don't brew just to make beer so we can drink it. (Although I do enjoy the fruit of the hobby.) What attracts many of us to brewing is that we enjoy the learning process and many (including me) enjoy experimenting for the sake of learning.

Not long ago I learned that many traditional English beers contain Invert #2 sugar in lieu of some base malt. So to learn how to make these beers I read up and made some invert #2. I then brewed a batch of bitters with what seemed a good substitution ratio of base malt to invert.

As a result I know a little more now than I knew a month or so ago and appreciate a little better the complexity, knowledge and history of brewing. My experiment has become a small part of a discussion about English beers in another thread where many of us continue to learn from each other.

But my experiment would have been impossible with extract brewing.

As others have said, a person can bake a delicious cake from a mix and it may taste identical to a scratch-made cake of the same type. And if you want to make cakes to eat and you enjoy the ones you are making then, by all means, carry on. But if you want to really learn the baking process and you want to add your own touches and flourishes to your cakes then you have no choice. You must toss out the box and learn to make it from scratch.

Cheers!

 

[Dopeybrew]

If you made an extract beer today, do you think it would be rival your all grain beers? Talking about it in this thread made me want to make a couple all grain beers. I'm going to make a gruit and a pliney clone this week and then I'll be on vacation. I am deciding what to make when I get back. The goal is to find something I couldn't make with extract correctly.

I think I spend too much time posting in political forums and I end up responding in a harsher way than I intend to. My apologies. I should relax and have a beer, right?

I did hot laps sometimes, my goal was not wrecking the car usually.

I do still make extract beers from time to time. They have gotten better but they lack several of the smaller nuances that the AG provide. It isn't that they taste worse(they are quite good) but there is something that, to my pallet, is missing when I brew using extracts.

 

[Gameface]

For me the lighter colors and just overall ability to control the color of beers was an unexpected benefit of going all grain. I know for a fact that color and clarity have a huge impact on perception outside homebrewing circles. People drink with their eyes before the beer ever touches their lips. If they've already decided they're not going to like the beer then that's that, they're not going to like it.