Is all grain is that much better or is it just that you have become a better brewer?

[RealFloopyGuy]

I've been brewing for 7 years or so. I do fade in and out of it. I've done all three. While I have made a gruit and am about to make another, I mostly stick to hoppy and dark beers with the occasional wheat or rye thrown in. I have very little interest in any lagers or light beers outside of maybe someday making an Oktoberfest. I had a WW2 veteran who kind of had a shop but didn't really open it anymore because he was too old teach me how to brew with a basically unending supply of equipment to play with. I got to do all of them and usually drink a bunch of moonshine. He liked having someone to tell war stories to and liked to flirt with my wife when she came with. He is gone now.

I honestly could never tell a difference in similar beers being extract, partial, or all grain. I know the grain is cheaper(Well.. after 500 batches to make up for the 1k in equipment when you go crazy out of the gate, haha.) and that there is more variety, but I guess I am sort of boring. I sold the all grain equipment I had because I wasn't using it after I did my first BIAB experiment. I find that I am pretty happy with extract beers and there isn't really anything I haven't been able to make that I've wanted to.

I've done one partial and one BIAB in the last 3-4 years but mostly it has just been extracts. My beer has certainly gotten better and I often feel that my beer is better than commercial beers. Not just because I made it, it is honestly better to me.

How much of the "all grain is better" is because most people go to all grain fairly early in their brewing while they are still improving measurably vs the all grain actually tasting noticeably different? BIAB in a bag isn't too bad, but when I did the traditional mashing it kind of felt like I was making my own sugar to bake a cake vs just buying some sugar.

Are there all grain people who do extract batches regularly still? Have your extract batches gotten much better also?

 

[Setesh]

IMO, the primary reason that all grain is better is that you have complete control over the wort you make. With extract, someone else has done the mashing for you. This means that the fermentability and composition of the extract are set factors that you have to deal with. There are certain styles of beer that are much more difficult to make with extract than with grain for these reasons.

Besides that, as long as you use fresh extract then you can make excellent beer with extract instead of all grain. The chief benefit of doing extract is time savings. I will do extract from time to time just because I don't have the time to do all grain. As long as my extract is fresh I have been more than happy with the results.

TBO, I made worse beer when I switched to all grain, at least for a while, since I made new mistakes and had to overcome equipment hurdles. I brew mostly all grain now because I enjoy the process and because it is quite a lot cheaper, but I certainly don't have anything against extract.

 

[duboman]

There are plenty of extract brewers making award winning beer so if you don't mind the extra bit of money and some of the limitations of ingredients there is no need to go AG

 

[sloanfamilydsm]

Cost. Plain n simple. All grain can replicate anything extract at about half the price.

 

[BobBailey]

I brewed extract with steeped grains for about 1 1/2 years before going to partial mash for maybe 3 batches and then all grain. The first supplier I used was a small shop that didn't turn a lot of inventory and thus, had pretty stale extracts for the most part. I switched to a big online supplier and noticed a great improvement due to the much fresher extract.

I went to all grain mostly for the challenge, but noticed a marked improvement in quality too. I brewed mostly IPAs at the time and attribute most of the quality improvement to being able to control wort fermentability and attenuation in order to create dryer beers.

I struggled with a lack of crispness and clarity in most of my brews until I found out how bad my water was and started using RO water, adjusting the PH of all of my brewing water to about 5.5 and adding about a teaspoon of gypsum or calcium chloride, or a combination of the 2 depending on the type of beer, to the mash. (thank you Gordon Strong)

I have tasted many excellent extract beers, so wouldn't say that all grain beer is better. At the same time, I would definitely say that brewing all grain makes a better brewer. There are only so many things you can do with extracts, but with all grain you have almost complete control over the entire process.

While I do understand time constraints as well as budget constraints and lack of space as being valid reasons for sticking to extract brewing, I can't understand anyone with a true love of the hobby and a sense of adventure not wanting to go to all grain brewing. For me it has been a truly great hobby as well as an adventure. One of the best parts has been figuring out the root causes of the problems I've had and the solutions to them.

Whatever you choose to do, happy brewing!

Bob

 

[soccerdad]

I think the first thing to keep in mind is that many people (and many kits) make excellent beer with extract or PM.

I do mostly AG for the added challenge, greater flexibility and lower cost.

 

[stevehardt]

Done both, and have made good beer with both. I prefer all grain because, for me, its more fun

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

I didn't see that great of a cost savings for all grain. Once I had the equipment, extra propane used each time, and the like... I realized it would take me a hundred batches to make up the difference. That is when I started doing BIAB some and sold my equipment. How much money do you all have tied up in your all grain equipment?

 

[Natdavis777]

I jumped head first into AG when I started brewing. Learned a plethora in my first year. I recently did an extract batch for a base beer I was souring, and I didnt like it. I was out of my element. I love having control over the mash and water chemistry. I will say though, it was somewhat faster and easier to clean up.

 

[Beernik]

I was never satisfied with my all extract beers. I started PMing using a bag fairly early because I thought it helped the mouthfeel of the beer.

 

[dobes]

I have not done an extract batch in quite some time. I have nothing against them, made quite a few good extract batches, but going all grain for me is so much more exciting.
I like all the experimenting with all grain, not that you cant with extract, but their is more options with all grain.
if asking if all grain makes a better beer I would say not necessarily but it will make you a better brewer.

 

[Clef051]

I like the extra control over the beer that all-grain provides and the cost savings isn't bad either.

 

[cannman]

I could always taste the LME in my extract brews... anything to get rid of that off flavor is an improvement.

 

[paperairplane]

For the price of 1 kit, I can get a 50# sack of 2 row. That's the difference.

Dude in local club does PM and his beers are super bad ass.

Learning fermentation temp is a big big factor.

 

[Agate]

My AG beers are definitely better. Maybe because I have more time into it, I'm more careful with all the other steps, but either way I've seen a big improvement since going away from extract.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I didn't see that great of a cost savings for all grain. Once I had the equipment, extra propane used each time, and the like... I realized it would take me a hundred batches to make up the difference. That is when I started doing BIAB some and sold my equipment. How much money do you all have tied up in your all grain equipment?

I use a single 7.5gallon turkey fryer and burner50$ that I added a bazooka screen3-4$ and ball valve 5$? to. Then my fermenter bucket. So all in all not much cost on equipment. Then there is the grain mill 150$. I keg so my 3 5gallon kegs150-200$ 4 3gallon kegs 150$
Co2 regulators and splitters about 150$ a 15gallon plastic conical fermenter that I still have yet to use(and should probably sell to recoup some of equipment cost) that I got for 80-90$. Chest freezer(gifted from SIL) STC-1000 I built 20$. So not a whole lot actually spent for just all grain equipment so it doesn't have to cost 1000s of dollars to go all grain.


Sent from somewhere to someone

 

[captjpr]

If you like your beer, rock on! You're doing it right. As far as cost savings go, my usual comment to potential home brewers is that you're not going to save money on beer by making your own. The opposite is more likely the case. Once you let yourself get sucked down the rabbit hole, there's no end to added expense of one more gizmo that is going to get you to the next level. As with any hobby, It's a bug that infects some more than others. How involved you want to get in the process is a personal choice, there's no single right way. Great beers were brewed for hundreds of years before mankind even knew what yeast was.

Just enjoy

 

[BobBailey]

I didn't see that great of a cost savings for all grain. Once I had the equipment, extra propane used each time, and the like... I realized it would take me a hundred batches to make up the difference. That is when I started doing BIAB some and sold my equipment. How much money do you all have tied up in your all grain equipment?

Aside from what I would use for extract or Partial Mashes, not a bunch. A 10 gallon round cooler mash tun(65.00). If I didn't do full boils for extract, I'd have my 10 gallon Boil Kettle too(120.00). Of course, you need that for BIAB too. Grain mill - $125.00.

I would be using my fermentation fridge and be kegging extract beers, so the mash tun would pretty much be the difference. It costs me about $25.00 to make a 6 gallon batch of a 7% IPA and about $22.00 for a 5.5% Pale ale. including propane, cleaner and sanitizer.

At a conservatively estimated savings of $10/batch over an extract kit, it would take me 19 batches to cover the difference in cost.

Bob

 

[fishhead202]

This is a great post. I've got my first all grains in fermenters now, and honestly have had issues with each (3). I likely jumped in too fast, and regret not rotating in extract while I'm learning.

Honestly, I like the tinkering side of things, and have enjoyed that with the AG, but haven't enjoyed the other benefits (cost and customability), as each of mine were AG kits from the local shop.

I also love the idea of making it all myself. While you compared it to making your own sugar, I kind of feel like it's making a cake from a box vs. your own recipe. While it's awesome saying "yea I made that", it's even better when you can say "I added extra X because.... and I think it gives it a great, unique flavor".

 

[Talgrath]

Malt extract is something like coloring with crayons as compared to painting with a paintbrush; a great artist can make great art with crayons, a bad artist won't be able to make a great painting with all of the best paints and paintbrushes in the world. But, a great artist can make better art with a paintbrush than he can working with crayons. All grain gives you greater options, greater variations and more subtlety; now you control the crush, the grain selection to the most minute details and the mash temperature; all of these can have a big impact on beer flavor and texture, you can't do that with extract.

 

[Dopeybrew]

Id say, for me at least, its a 50/50 split. When doing extract I was using an inferior kit, when I made the switch to BIAB I upgraded almost everything in the kit to a much higher level. So with the experience gained from extract combined with the better equipment that BIAB made me get is what makes the beer better.

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

Id say, for me at least, its a 50/50 split. When doing extract I was using an inferior kit, when I made the switch to BIAB I upgraded almost everything in the kit to a much higher level. So with the experience gained from extract combined with the better equipment that BIAB made me get is what makes the beer better.

The grain itself isn't what made you better, but the equipment. I'd call that moving to the next level. That doesn't really have to do with grain, does it?

 

[DSorenson]

I really have had some great beers that were extract/partial mash. I didn't make them personally, but it took me a while before I could replicate the results with grain. Now that I've got it down there is a lot of nuance I can control to make something special, but most of it is experience.

 

[kh54s10]

I didn't vote because none really apply. I have brewed extract, partial mash, BIAB and batch sparge all grain. I have gotten fantastic results with all methods.

My beers never got better or worse is closest, but experience also counts some. My beers are more consistently good, but with using all methods, also my second batch ever was one of my best (extract w/specialty grains kit).

 

[RealFloopyGuy]

I use a single 7.5gallon turkey fryer and burner50$ that I added a bazooka screen3-4$ and ball valve 5$? to. Then my fermenter bucket. So all in all not much cost on equipment. Then there is the grain mill 150$. I keg so my 3 5gallon kegs150-200$ 4 3gallon kegs 150$
Co2 regulators and splitters about 150$ a 15gallon plastic conical fermenter that I still have yet to use(and should probably sell to recoup some of equipment cost) that I got for 80-90$. Chest freezer(gifted from SIL) STC-1000 I built 20$. So not a whole lot actually spent for just all grain equipment so it doesn't have to cost 1000s of dollars to go all grain.


Sent from somewhere to someone

I have a 4 tap TDD4 kegerator, kegs, 4-5 CO2 tanks, a chest freezer, a portable AC, and a bunch of other things. Those aren't really from going all grain. I think most extract brewers would move on to kegs eventually.

If you like your beer, rock on! You're doing it right. As far as cost savings go, my usual comment to potential home brewers is that you're not going to save money on beer by making your own. The opposite is more likely the case. Once you let yourself get sucked down the rabbit hole, there's no end to added expense of one more gizmo that is going to get you to the next level. As with any hobby, It's a bug that infects some more than others. How involved you want to get in the process is a personal choice, there's no single right way. Great beers were brewed for hundreds of years before mankind even knew what yeast was.

Just enjoy

I'm not sure I ever saved money, but maybe. $10 6packs. I probably just drink more to make up for it though. I sold almost all of my equipment about 3 years back. I kind of regret selling the dozen or so cornies I had.

I didn't vote because none really apply. I have brewed extract, partial mash, BIAB and batch sparge all grain. I have gotten fantastic results with all methods.

My beers never got better or worse is closest, but experience also counts some. My beers are more consistently good, but with using all methods, also my second batch ever was one of my best (extract w/specialty grains kit).

You must be a savant. My current partial and extract beers are better than my all grain were, which were better than my initial extract beers.

 

[riderkb]

For hoppy styles extract has very little downside. There are a lot of base malts out there, though, and most of them are not available in extract form. So if you want to do malt forward beers AG is the way to go.

Most of my improvements have come from better fermentations. When I started in 1996 the dry yeast that came in a kit was sure to make nasty beer. Especially with the under pitching, under oxygenation, and high ferment temps we used back then.

 

[Nagorg]

50/50 - My knee jerk response was that experience has been the biggest factor. But after giving it some thought, I realized that switching to All Grain was the biggest catalyst for a lot the process improvements and equipment enhancements I've made along the way. So, I attribute the AG switch as having a lot to do with the gain of experience.

 

[evanmars]

I started with an extract kit. The results were meh. I started doing extract and extract with steeping grains with individually purchased ingredients and noticed a big difference. My beers got much better. Some of the best I've made. I switched to all grain and it took a while before I was making beer as good as when I was using extract and steeping. I enjoy the process much more with all grain, I can make it as easy or as complicated as I like. Sometimes I shoot for the exact mash temp and get as close to exact measurements on everything as possible, other times I do a 'it's close enough' batch.
The cost to get into all grain wasn't that much for me. I had a propane turkey fryer, I was already doing extract batches on that. Already had the immersion chiller from extract. A friend left a 48 quart igloo cooler at the house, a quick addition of a braid < $10 attached to the drain. Had my grain milled by the LHBS. I did end up buying a sanke keg which I converted into a keggle < $50. Oh, yeah and the two valves for the MLT and keggle ~25ea.

 

[FinchSCF]

All grain or extract, if you are practicing proper cleaning, sanitation and fermentation control, then you will make great beer. That said, I'm in the 75% knowledge camp.

 

[Dopeybrew]

The grain itself isn't what made you better, but the equipment. I'd call that moving to the next level. That doesn't really have to do with grain, does it?

Without the switch to AG I wouldn't have upgraded the equipment. Without the upgraded equipment/understanding of the process/control over the process that AG brought then I would still be brewing inferior to what I am currently brewing.

 

[EineProsit]

Done both, and have made good beer with both. I prefer all grain because, for me, its more fun

I 2nd that.

 

[Hello]

I moved to all grain for one simple reason, color. I brewed a couple beers that should have been light and they weren't. While I have brewed a beer using the all grain method that was darker than it should have been, this was my fault because I over-boiled the wort. That has nothing to do with all grain or even PM.

Once I decided I wanted a true pale ale, I moved to all grain. Now I love being able to control my process completely, or completely within my own ability.

 

[j1n]

I don't know cause i started with all grain. The only reason i have DME is for starters.

 

[AnOldUR]

"Brewers make wort, yeast make beer."

 

[mkyl428]

I don't know cause i started with all grain. The only reason i have DME is for starters.

+1:rockin:

 

[runkelia]

My first 8 brews were extract & partial mash. It is good to learn the fundamentals through kits plus resources like "How to Brew" because they typically give good step by step instructions. Once I realized I could brew a kit without instructions, I moved to all grain.
My first AG attempt I went big: a double IPA - Heady Topper clone.
It turned out great and I never looked back.

 

[rmyurick]

I think with all-grain (or at least partial mash), you have more control over the results. You can have extract that over- or under-ferments and be left with beer that is heavier or more alcoholic than you wanted. If you use canned extract, sometimes it tastes metallic.

But yeah, you can brew good beer with extract, probably the more steeping grains in the recipe, the better.

 

[MrSnacks]

The big advantage of all grain is it's cheaper. I've made damn fine beers partial mashing, I've made beers just as good all grain. I think it's mostly that I know what I'm doing now.

 

[Homercidal]

For me it was a bit of both, but I'd say that there some inherent limitations in extract brewing. Some of them can be worked around, at least up to a point.

With extract you are at the mercy of the extract manufacturer. You have to sometimes adjust for color and attenuation.

And while it's true we all are at the mercy of the maltster (Unless you malt your own grain) there is a huge difference in variety of extract vs malt. And malt is the standard that extract tries to live up to.

 

[SPR-GRN]

I have never made an extract batch, but for about 4 years I made BIAB partial mash batches before I went BIAB all grain. My BIAB all grain beers have a truer-to-style color, and have come out clearer. Also I started buying grain in bulk through group buys, so brewing is stupid cheap now. As for equipment costs, not really all that much, and have probably been recuperated by now based on grain savings, but I really don't care since it's a hobby anyways. The disadvantages of BIAB AG that I've noticed are that the bag is a lot heavier now than when I did PM and efficiency is very crush dependent, but I typically double crush anyways.

As far as I'm concerned, although my brews have gotten better partially due to experience, going all grain has provided a bump in quality and shouldn't be ignored.