IPA and Yeast

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Nicknack

Nicknack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
122
Reaction score
15
Location
South Carolina
Newb here... my second 5 gallong batch of beer I intend to brew is a Mosaic IPA with an OG of 1.070. Based on all the reading I've done on this forum, most say that for brews at 1.060 or higher, you probably should use a starter. However, I also understand that with dry yeast, I should NOT use a starter. That leads me to a few questions/issues.

1. I bought the kit with 1 packet of dry yeast (Safale US-05). Why would NB sell with one packet if that isn't enough for proper fermentation?

2. Should I use liquid yeast instead or can I just simply use more than one packet of Safale US-05? If I can use more for proper results, how much?

3. If the answer to my situation is just pitching more than one packet of dry yeast then that seems simple enough. If that's right, then why do people hassle with the liquid yeast and a starter? I know there are more varieties with liquid yeast but is there any other reason? I've read through several threads on dry vs. liquid yeast but haven't seen much beyond having more strains available with liquid yeast.

The next beer that I brew (after the Mosaic IPA) is going to be Cascade Mountains West Coast Imperial IPA with an OG of 1.086. Therefore, I want to make sure I get this all figured out before starting to brew that big boy.
 
1. 1 packet should be enough for standard 5 gallon batch from everything I have read.
2. See above.
3. There is no other reason as far as I can tell.
 
1) it is probably enough, but might be a bit of an underpitch. Probably won't screw anything up as the yeast will multiply, it just might take slightly longer to get going.

2) using liquid yeast, unless it's a small ( ~2 gallons) batch, you'lll need to make a starter. You can pitch another pack of US05 (or even half a pack if you're like me, and tight/cheap) and it will be fine.

3) you nailed it when you said "there's so many more types of yeast available" via liquid form. They aren't absolutely necessary, although "clone" recipes will no longer be clones if using a different yeast.
 
1.070 you should be fine, although like stated above it is probably cutting it close. When I get in the 1.070+ range I try to put two packets in per 5. That's probably over kill, but it's what I do. Brew away....05 is pretty bad arse anyway.
 
As a new brewer I'm assuming you are doing extract. Since extract tends to finish a little high, you might want to give the yeast a leg up and pitch another packet. If you can get some easily, it's worth the insurance. If not, go ahead and pitch what you have. If you have good temp control (60F - 65F for 05), you won't stress the yeast as much and you should be OK.
 
If it's not too much of a hassle, I'd get another packet of US-05. Either way. be sure to re-hydrate the yeast. Failure to do so can reduce the viability by as much as 50%.
 
Sounds good... I'll get another packet of US-05 and I will be sure to re-hydrate before using. I just got a chest freezer and temp controller so I've been keeping it at 67-70 degrees. Perhaps I should lower it a bit.

So... based on everything I've read, as it relates specifically to the fermentation process, using liquid yeast wouldn't provide any benefit over dry yeast (as long as I use enough - such as two packets). Correct?
 
Mr malty suggest 2.41b viable cells for a 5gallon beer @ 1.070, which is 1.2 (11.5g) packets. US05 is a power house and should be able to handle this beer, but it wouldn't hurt to add in some yeast nutrient to ensure a healthy fermentation and getting as close to 80% attenuation.
 
Nicknack said:
Sounds good... I'll get another packet of US-05 and I will be sure to re-hydrate before using. I just got a chest freezer and temp controller so I've been keeping it at 67-70 degrees. Perhaps I should lower it a bit.

So... based on everything I've read, as it relates specifically to the fermentation process, using liquid yeast wouldn't provide any benefit over dry yeast (as long as I use enough - such as two packets). Correct?
Click to expand...

As a new brewer, I would not worry about liquid yeast. For +90% of american styles, you are fine with dry yeast. IMO, its really only when you get into belgian and more refined european beers that liquid yeast becomes a necessity. There are a few good dry ones for those too though, but your range is pretty limited
 
If I use two packets for this brew, can I just re-hydrate all of the yeast together and then pitch it at the same time?
 
Nicknack said:
If I use two packets for this brew, can I just re-hydrate all of the yeast together and then pitch it at the same time?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't use two packets. Over pitching can lead to muting of hop flavor and bitterness, which is something you DEFINTELY do not want in this style of beer.
 
Nicknack said:
I was thinking about using 1 1/2. I suppose I could use 1 1/4 instead since Mr. Malty shows that I only need 1.2 packets.
Click to expand...

Ya I am in the same boat on a beer, but I believe if you aerate and add yeast nutrient to the wort you should be able to get away with 1 packet.
 
I just finished a DIPA OG 1.087 used 1 pack us-05 and no trouble fermenting. Hit my FG in 6 days. So I definitely don't think you need more than 1
 
I just bottles an IPA 1.080 OG. Single pack of dry us-05 just dumped in. Make sure to aerate before pitching. Second day it was going so strong I had to put in a blowoff tube.
 
It's not that you CAN'T or SHOULDN'T make a starter with dry yeast. It's just that an extra packet of something like US-05 is so cheap it basically makes more sense to use multiple packets.

If you have a packet and don't have ready access to another then make a starter. It won't hurt. The yeast will be happy, they'll grow in numbers and your beer will be happier as a result.

People who regurgitate the dogma of "you shouldn't make a starter with dry yeast" are, IMHO, not giving the best advice.
 
Also, it's not that one yeast packet CAN'T ferment your wort. It's that more yeast would equate to less stress on the yeast you put in there and would ferment cleaner, quicker and easier.

Again, there is a bit of dogma that people treat as gospel. People tend to replace the words "not the best practice" with "you can't or shouldn't."
 
BrotherBock said:
It's not that you CAN'T or SHOULDN'T make a starter with dry yeast.
Click to expand...

Well, actually ...

That's exactly what it is.

"With most dry yeasts, placing them in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into the yeast.
For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not do a starter."

-- Jamil Zainasheff, co-author of the book "Yeast"
 
BrotherBock said:
Again, there is a bit of dogma that people treat as gospel. People tend to replace the words "not the best practice" with "you can't or shouldn't."
Click to expand...

Are we not trying to make the best beer possible?

If you're that lazy, heck, you don't have to add any yeast at all. Just leave the lid off your fermentation bucket, it'll eventually ferment out all on its own. No need to worry about pitching rates, fuss with making starters, or waste money on useless yeast!
 
kombat said:
Well, actually ...

That's exactly what it is.

"With most dry yeasts, placing them in a starter would just deplete the reserves that the yeast manufacturer worked so hard to build into the yeast.
For dry yeasts, just do a proper rehydration in tap water, do not do a starter."

-- Jamil Zainasheff, co-author of the book "Yeast"
Click to expand...

Yeah, according to your citation it effects reserves of the yeast, but it still builds up the yeast count which is another goal of the starter.

So.....like I said. It's not that you CAN'T. The better phrase would be "not the best practice."
 
I brewed an IPA on Saturday with an SG of 1.073. Used 1 pack of US-05 and just sprinkled it in. 36 hours later the airlock was going crazy.

Did I underpitch? No.

You're fine with one pack. Lot's of yeast hysteria around these forums with viable cell counts, underpitching, overpitching, etc.
 
brewprint said:
I brewed an IPA on Saturday with an SG of 1.073. Used 1 pack of US-05 and just sprinkled it in. 36 hours later the airlock was going crazy.

Did I underpitch? No.
Click to expand...

Yes, actually, you wildly underpitched.

"Underpitching" doesn't mean it won't ferment. Of course it will. You could sprinkle a pinch of dry yeast in there, and it will indeed eventually ferment.

"Underpitching" means based on what we know about the behaviour of yeast cells, and the assumption that you want to minimize undesirable phenols, esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, isoamyl acetate, and other off-flavours, there is an established formula for optimizing the profile of the resulting beer.

In your case, the optimum starting cell count for 5 gallons of 1.073 ale is 73 * 4 billion = 292 billion cells. 1 packet of dry yeast, fresh and properly rehydrated, will deliver around 200 billion cells. Pitching the yeast dry will reduce cell viability by up to 50%, meaning in the worst case scenario, you pitched 100 billion cells, or just 34% of what you should have pitched. Heck, even if you'd rehydrated and somehow achieved 100% cell viability (i.e., 200 billion cells), you still underpitched by 31.5%.

To claim you didn't underpitch, you'd have to have pitched at least 292 billion cells, and even under the best conditions, a single 11.5g packet of dry yeast cannot deliver that many cells.
 
kombat said:
yes, actually, you wildly underpitched.

"underpitching" doesn't mean it won't ferment. Of course it will. You could sprinkle a pinch of dry yeast in there, and it will indeed eventually ferment.

"underpitching" means based on what we know about the behaviour of yeast cells, and the assumption that you want to minimize undesirable phenols, esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, isoamyl acetate, and other off-flavours, there is an established formula for optimizing the profile of the resulting beer.

In your case, the optimum starting cell count for 5 gallons of 1.073 ale is 73 * 4 billion = 292 billion cells. 1 packet of dry yeast, fresh and properly rehydrated, will deliver around 200 billion cells. Pitching the yeast dry will reduce cell viability by up to 50%, meaning in the worst case scenario, you pitched 100 billion cells, or just 34% of what you should have pitched. Heck, even if you'd rehydrated and somehow achieved 100% cell viability (i.e., 200 billion cells), you still underpitched by 31.5%.

To claim you didn't underpitch, you'd have to have pitched at least 292 billion cells, and even under the best conditions, a single 11.5g packet of dry yeast cannot deliver that many cells.
Click to expand...

+1
 
kombat said:
Yes, actually, you wildly underpitched.

"Underpitching" doesn't mean it won't ferment. Of course it will. You could sprinkle a pinch of dry yeast in there, and it will indeed eventually ferment.

"Underpitching" means based on what we know about the behaviour of yeast cells, and the assumption that you want to minimize undesirable phenols, esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, isoamyl acetate, and other off-flavours, there is an established formula for optimizing the profile of the resulting beer.

In your case, the optimum starting cell count for 5 gallons of 1.073 ale is 73 * 4 billion = 292 billion cells. 1 packet of dry yeast, fresh and properly rehydrated, will deliver around 200 billion cells. Pitching the yeast dry will reduce cell viability by up to 50%, meaning in the worst case scenario, you pitched 100 billion cells, or just 34% of what you should have pitched. Heck, even if you'd rehydrated and somehow achieved 100% cell viability (i.e., 200 billion cells), you still underpitched by 31.5%.

To claim you didn't underpitch, you'd have to have pitched at least 292 billion cells, and even under the best conditions, a single 11.5g packet of dry yeast cannot deliver that many cells.
Click to expand...

Yes by your theory...and let me stress; theory, I did under pitch.

What about the other yeast calculator that says different? Or the other one that says different? Or the other one that says different?

Do you see my point?

Basing a view strictly on conjecture or what you 'think' is going to give all of the off flavors and what not that you mentioned is hardly brewing science.

So my view still stands that no under pitching is involved here.

As I stated before; "hysteria."
 
brewprint said:
What about the other yeast calculator that says different? Or the other one that says different? Or the other one that says different?
Click to expand...

My numbers are based on the Mr. Malty calculator, which was created by Jamil Zainasheff, one of the co-authors of the book "Yeast." The other author is Chris White, the founder of Whitelabs Yeast. I think they know what they're talking about.

brewprint said:
Basing a view strictly on conjecture or what you 'think' is going to give all of the off flavors and what not that you mentioned is hardly brewing science.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what it is. The book "Yeast" is based entirely on science.

brewprint said:
So my view still stands that no under pitching is involved here.
Click to expand...

Show me any yeast calculator that concludes that with your numbers, you did not underpitch. That is, show me any credible pitching rate calculator that concludes that for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort, 100 billion cells of ale yeast is an adequate pitch.

Heck, I'll even expand it to include ANY source. Please cite any research material anywhere that says 100 billion cells of ale yeast is enough for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort. You can use the yeast manufacturers' websites, any science paper, a brewing college student's thesis, BeerSmith... anything. They'll ALL prescribe well over 200 billion cells, or at least more than double what you actually pitched.

Show me ANY credible source that says you didn't underpitch. If EVERYONE says you should've pitched more yeast, then it's not just "hysteria" or an "opinion" - it's fact.
 
kombat said:
My numbers are based on the Mr. Malty calculator, which was created by Jamil Zainasheff, one of the co-authors of the book "Yeast." The other author is Chris White, the founder of Whitelabs Yeast. I think they know what they're talking about.



That's exactly what it is. The book "Yeast" is based entirely on science.



Show me any yeast calculator that concludes that with your numbers, you did not underpitch. That is, show me any credible pitching rate calculator that concludes that for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort, 100 billion cells of ale yeast is an adequate pitch.

Heck, I'll even expand it to include ANY source. Please cite any research material anywhere that says 100 billion cells of ale yeast is enough for 5 gallons of 1.073 wort. You can use the yeast manufacturers' websites, any science paper, a brewing college student's thesis, BeerSmith... anything. They'll ALL prescribe well over 200 billion cells, or at least more than double what you actually pitched.

Show me ANY credible source that says you didn't underpitch. If EVERYONE says you should've pitched more yeast, then it's not just "hysteria" or an "opinion" - it's fact.
Click to expand...

Dude, you said that there will be off flavors produced. PROVE it. Until that can actually be proven by someone drinking beer and not reading a book it's all smoke and mirrors.

Keep pitching your excessive starters and spending money on extra dry yeast. I'll keep 'under pitching' and enjoying my beer just as much as you.

My point is that it's overkill. Even if you say it's 'fact,' it's only fact according to SOME and not all.
 
Yeah, he's obviously made up his mind. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with the advice from the guys who literally wrote the book on yeast, own a massively successful yeast company, and have won hundreds of homebrew medals.
 
kombat said:
Yeah, he's obviously made up his mind. I'm gonna go ahead and stick with the advice from the guys who literally wrote the book on yeast, own a massively successful yeast company, and have won hundreds of homebrew medals.
Click to expand...

*mic dropped *
 
.....so how many yeast packets do i need for my 1.200 IIIPA? Is two enough? One expired in 2014....
 
Here's a couple of links where I have come to my conclusions...so that there is an understanding that I'm not making emotional responses.

http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

When we pull up the above calculator there are multiple methods that we can choose from the drop down menus. They are based on the aforementioned people who have wrote "The book on yeast" and other various blogs, etc.

Which drop down menu is right? What method is correct? Hmmm

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

An excellent blog written by Kai. It looks like now I need to get a better stir plate!

Where does it stop? Who is right? What is really happening with the yeast? Am I doing unnecessary steps to make my homebrew?
 
m00ps said:
.....so how many yeast packets do i need for my 1.200 IIIPA? Is two enough? One expired in 2014....
Click to expand...

That's an extreme. Kind of like saying that I only need one pack of US-05 to make 100 gallons instead of 5 or 6. :smack:
 

Similar threads

Tony B
First batch
Replies
10
Views
716
Kornssj
Kornssj
B
Yeast Scientists: Why not create yeast collections before brewing?
Replies
2
Views
457
McMullan
McMullan
L
Yeast Suggestion for this Red Ale Clone Recipe
Replies
9
Views
716
beren
beren
madscientist451
$12 dry yeast for beer?
2
Replies
60
Views
3K
BrewnWKopperKat
BrewnWKopperKat
P
Should I cold crash?
Replies
10
Views
882
bailey mountain brewer
bailey mountain brewer
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top