Just curious, which yeast is the Augustiner yeast? Augustiner Helles is about the best beer in the world imho...
Interesting German Brewing PDF
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stpug
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I can't really help with any specifics of German beers because I'm not smart enough in that regard, sorry. I will say that toasted malts (e.g., victory, amber, biscuit, even pale chocolates) come across very well, very powerfully in the finished beer - so a deft hand is helpful. An example of what I'm driving at is that 8-12 oz of victory in a regular, non-low oxygen recipe might be replaced with 2-4 oz of victory in a low oxygen beer to achieve the same general level of toastiness.
If you can find out the festbeer you tried last fall then someone with more recipe guidance might be able to help you out. Sometimes the easiest way is to call the bar and ask about "that awesome, toasty german festbeer" you had at their place last fall - sometimes you'll only get a brand/name but that's a starting point.
Just curious, which yeast is the Augustiner yeast? Augustiner Helles is about the best beer in the world imho...
Some one told me that Wyeast 2352 (Munich II) is the Augustiner isolate. Also, that the L17 Harvest yeast from Imperial Yeast is the same. Maybe I have been mislead, but I have used the yeast before with good (albiet homebrew nominal Do) results.
Hey thanks!
Ive brewed several LODO IPAs at this point and I honestly see no difference. IMO because of how heavily hopped the style is the difference is just non perceivable. On the other hand, I do notice a difference in less aggressively hopped styles. Personally its the tight cold side practices that makes great IPAs. Your trying to hold hop freshness. Lose that in an IPA and who really cares about the malt anymore?
This is interesting because my experience has been different. I've made my house IIPA once using LODO and I could tell a vast difference in the hops. They were brighter and more pleasant somehow. And the shelf life of the wonderful hoppiness was improved.
I think that the unique hop character of NEIPA is entirely due to low-oxygen hopping techniques (hop stand post boil, dry hopping during active fermentation) and minimizing O2 pickup post-fermentation to a much more obsessive degree than most.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
http://www.********************/brewing-methods/a-low-oxygen-brewday/
There it is.
Thats a great idea to call the bar, I just might. I have had luck as you mention with biscuit and pale chocolate pursuing this flavor in ales, but there has to be a way to get there with the german malts in lagers! I'm starting to wonder if that the toasty/crusty flavor might just be a blend light and dark munich malts that havent been oxidized. Its a darker/toastier taste than the dough I associate with Vienna. At this point im thinking of 60% Pilsner / 40% Munich blend of lt and dark. I am not sure which if any cara malt to use?
Pilsner, Vienna, the Munich malts, a light caramel malt (carahell for example), a dark caramel malt (caramunich for example), and a roasted malt (carafa) is all you need to make the full range of German lagers.
Try starting out with Vienna in the 10-20% range and Munich in the 5-15% range and a bit of caramel malt for a fest.
Try starting out with Vienna in the 10-20% range and Munich in the 5-15% range and a bit of caramel malt for a fest.
I believe that most of the "character" is due to that. It also has to due with the specific oil content of the hops, as certain varieties just don't cut it. Trillium seems to only dry hop for some of their beers, which would further this theory as it is the easiest point in the process in which hops can be added with zero O2 pickup. I have since stopped hop standing
damn dude. that's a hell of a set up.
But any improvement on hop character doesn't come from keeping low oxygen levels in the mash. Its all late boil on through the cold side which at that point its all about being tight on CSA.
A theory Ive recently had is the key is bringing the ph down and possibly only hopping via dry hopping. This is what I do with my sour IPA and its unreal how much it tastes like white grapefruit juice. Theres definitely something to the acidity that makes the hops a lot more juicy.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
With all the hub bub around low oxygen brewing and how it doesn't really fit into the normal forums(or does but under tons of scrutiny). We threw up a new forum off our site. It will be dedicated to all the is low oxygen brewing. Nothing style exclusive, any and all are welcome!
http://www.********************/forum
Bryan
http://www.********************/forum
Bryan
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Thanks, its only the beer it produces that matters!
Dcpcooks
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So I've been looking at this extensive post and while I'm skeptical I'm willing to consider implementing a test batch.
I have for the most part the set up needed.
RO water
The ability to condition the malt pre milling.
The ability to pump treated preboiled water to underlet the mash.
I can do a single no sparge mash in my 30g mash tun. I can recirc to maintain and ramp temps. I will need to ditch the blichmann auto sparge but could build a bulkhead that would allow me to recirc to the ss brewtech recirc manifold under the surface of the mash and keep splashing to a minimum. I can look into making some type of cap to limit headspace above the mash.
I can limit the level of the boil to a simmer.
I have temp controlled conical fermentors and can transfer under co2 to purged kegs as described, I do not have spunding valves as yet but I can look into this.
Do you have information regarding the use of a stainless steel counter flow chiller? I'm assuming a whirlpool is a no no but it seems that any o2 picked up post boil will be scavenged by yeast in the same manner that it is while aerating with o2 after pitching the yeast. Thats assuming the cooling is rapid and the transfer is fast.
It seems the dry hop is a challenge as I would be opening the fermentor to add hops. If done while still fermenting is this enough to scavenge o2 introduced during the dry-hop?
Has anyone looked at the use of an ss brewtech or sabco bright tank? You could push the beer to the bright tank (purged) before FG is achieved, and have a larger surface to collect the final yeast dropping out. Then serve or push to the keg? If so would beer gas be a better alternative for pushing?
Please let me know your thoughts
Cheers
Beer gas is going to have even more potential for oxygen exposure than pure CO2. In order to maintain the carbonation level, you need to have the same CO2 partial pressure whether you use CO2 or beer gas. Adding N2 just brings in another gas with it's own partial pressure (which does not affect carb level), but brings it's own O2 impurity level.
Say you need 12 psig (gauge pressure) CO2 to maintain your carbonation level. The CO2 partial pressure is then 12 + 14.7 = 26.7 psia (absolute pressure.) If you wanted to use 25/75 beer gas, then the total absolute pressure required is 26.7 * 4 = 106.8 psia or 106.8 - 14.7 = 92.1 psig. If you use less than 92 psig beer gas, then your CO2 partial pressure will be lower than 26.7 psia, and your beer will lose carbonation over time.
So, using beer gas requires about four times the total gas in the headspace vs. CO2 only. If the N2 has a similar level of O2 impurity as the CO2, then you would have about four times the amount of O2 in the headspace.
Brew on
haha if only.
One day I do want to have a fairly similar setup. Until then, I'm stuck with the equipment and budget that I have.
If a lot of the contributors to the original LoDo pdf concept have similar setups, I now completely understand how it was so often repeated that a subpar batch is completely tossed out.
Do you guys take any measurements during the mash (for those that don't have super fancy setups)?
I'm now on my third batch of just trying to dial in a process of minimal splashing. (I've explained that I'm just hoping to see some results, even though I'm not going full-on LoDo just yet.) On two of those three batches of pouring the grain gently straight into the water and then gently stirring and checking for dough balls, I've experienced that even 30 minutes into the mash, it seems that the grain isn't quite having all of the expected chemical reactions, and is quite a bit lower than expected. Today I extended the mash to 90 minutes in order to attempt to counteract this. Numbers were a bit low, but very close. So it seemed to have worked. But I just can't seem to stir enough with this approach.
Anybody else that doesn't have any kind of recirculating mash experience this?
I'm now on my third batch of just trying to dial in a process of minimal splashing. (I've explained that I'm just hoping to see some results, even though I'm not going full-on LoDo just yet.) On two of those three batches of pouring the grain gently straight into the water and then gently stirring and checking for dough balls, I've experienced that even 30 minutes into the mash, it seems that the grain isn't quite having all of the expected chemical reactions, and is quite a bit lower than expected. Today I extended the mash to 90 minutes in order to attempt to counteract this. Numbers were a bit low, but very close. So it seemed to have worked. But I just can't seem to stir enough with this approach.
Anybody else that doesn't have any kind of recirculating mash experience this?
Measurements of what? DO? SG? pH?
If its efficiency you are referring to, you'll need to stir (gently) a few times during your mash, just like you would for a normal HiDO mash.
I lost about 10% efficiency when i switched to LoDO but i'm still trying to determine if its LoDO, or something else. I had to change a lot all at once so the verdict is still out.
Also i think of us are doing step mashs so we're doing 90-120 minute mashes already.
stpug
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^^Those are my thoughts on your questions. Hope it helps.
stpug
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^^this is how I'm approaching this methodology right now. The gist is you WILL need to do some minimal stirring, and just focus on not splashing/aerating the wort when you do so.
My first lodo batch is underway right now. I went with a Marzen of 80% Munich, 15% Pils and 5% Caramunich II. The mash is 62/72/76 with 30/30/10 for time.
I Haven't sampled it quite yet. It is less aromatic than nominal DO brewing, but I am not sure if it is less aromatic than when I have just pre-boiled and underlet (no SMB).
I Haven't sampled it quite yet. It is less aromatic than nominal DO brewing, but I am not sure if it is less aromatic than when I have just pre-boiled and underlet (no SMB).
....and I just sampled it (mash). Amazing!
:rockin: I have tasted hints of this before doing pre-boil only with underlet. But this is far superior, more depth. Not that sugary type taste. Now to see if I can preserve this!
:rockin: I have tasted hints of this before doing pre-boil only with underlet. But this is far superior, more depth. Not that sugary type taste. Now to see if I can preserve this!
haha, I guess that was pretty vague. Meant to type pH. I already got pretty bad efficiency from doing full-volume mashes. I used to squeeze the hell out of the bag, and even tried crushing to basically flour, and still couldn't ever get huge bumps.
Yeah, I guess that makes more sense then. And I know that conditioning the grains is supposed to be part of it, so I'm sure that helps as well. I don't really have that capability as I have to get them crushed at the hbs.
I meant that the pH is quite a bit lower than expected, which is what I meant to type asking about the measurement mid-mash. Just forgot to type that part apparently. What I meant by can't see the "chemical reactions" was that the expected pH was say 5.32, and the measurement at 30 mins was 5.1. Seemed like all the different "stuff" from the grains didn't quite settle in, as it raises to the expected range by the end of the 60-min mash.
Ok, so it turns out that some guy here bought a 25kg (!!) sack of sodium metabisulphite. He's basically sending it around to anybody that wants some if they pay the cost of shipping. So I can get about 200g for about $6. Seems like a good-enough deal, as if my bath is right (25mg/l * 30l per batch = 750mg/batch - 200g/.75g = ~266 batches worth = ~2 cents per batch).
So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?
So in other words, I could go almost full-on LoDO, with the exception of fermenting in a keg. Would a second-best option, then, to be able to do a closed transfer post-fermentation to a starsan purged keg with priming it in the keg?
stpug
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Seems like a very reasonable deal for the SMB. As for fermenter, if you close rack to a purged keg at the tail end of primary fermentation with either a few gravity points left (2-3 for lagers, 4-6 for ales), or with fresh priming sugars, then you should be set.
Has anyone used Vicant before? https://www.abvickers.com/vicant/
Lallemand describes it as "An antioxidant and anti browning agent designed to enhance flavor and colloidal stability in beer. Vicant supplies sources of sulfur dioxide and ascorbate. The active components function in two ways, by scavenging dissolved oxygen and blocking staling reactions. It slows down the formation of off flavors, typically described as paper or cardboard by binding causative carbonyl compounds, particularly trans-2-nonenal."
Lallemand describes it as "An antioxidant and anti browning agent designed to enhance flavor and colloidal stability in beer. Vicant supplies sources of sulfur dioxide and ascorbate. The active components function in two ways, by scavenging dissolved oxygen and blocking staling reactions. It slows down the formation of off flavors, typically described as paper or cardboard by binding causative carbonyl compounds, particularly trans-2-nonenal."
No need to ferment in a keg for low DO. As stated, the gold standard is to transfer to final vessel (keg or bottle) with a few gravity points left.
I personally think the second best option is to prime in the primary, allow fermentation to restart, then transfer to the keg. This should provide more protection against oxygen uptake than simply transferring beer with inactive yeast onto a sugar solution.
1MadScientist
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Do you have two kegs? You can ferment in a keg, then pressure transfer to a serving keg. I do it all the time.
I'm interested. Is there an online retailer for this? I did a quick search but found nothing.
The link I posted was the only thing I could find other than it being listed in Lallemand's catalog. Didn't check to see if they sold through their site though. I'm thinking it may possibly only be available for commercial accounts. Granted Brewtan B is only available to commercial accounts in the US but is available to the homebrew market in other countries so who knows.
Yes, I have exactly two kegs that I like to keep full (or ready to fill) at all times, since beer (alcohol in general) is incredibly expensive here. I'm not willing to go that far for this process yet, and don't really have the resources to purchase more kegs atm.
One thing that this will likely force me to kick my butt into getting around to finding a solution for is building a condensate stack of sorts so that I can boil in my SS kettle. But would the brewtan b help against the fact that I've been boiling in an aluminum pot in the winter? Or has anybody found a workaround solution that fights against the use of a copper chiller?
ParanoidAndroid
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Has anyone looked into supplements that prevent the formation of LOX-1? Is this sort of the same as an antioxidant?
For example:
"Procyanidins are potent inhibitors of LOX-1: a new player in the French Paradox"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066543/
Grape See Extract is high in Procyanidins and is readily available.
For example:
"Procyanidins are potent inhibitors of LOX-1: a new player in the French Paradox"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066543/
Grape See Extract is high in Procyanidins and is readily available.
I used Brewtan B for the first time on a LoDO Helles this weekend and it was interesting... still too early for a definite verdict but some notables:
1. The copper IC normally comes out of the kettle bright clean copper new. It came out dull this time. Never seen that before in my life.
2. When i added the BB to the boil with 5 minutes to go i had what appeared to be a second hot break. I was super excited it looked like it was working some magic, but a few minutes later the wort turned hazy as hell.... like NE IPA hazy. Normally after the chill down everything settles out and i have crystal clear wort. Not so this time. Even after a few hours in the cold the wort didn't clear. Hoping its not permanent as it would be a damn shame to ruin a 15G batch like that.
1. The copper IC normally comes out of the kettle bright clean copper new. It came out dull this time. Never seen that before in my life.
2. When i added the BB to the boil with 5 minutes to go i had what appeared to be a second hot break. I was super excited it looked like it was working some magic, but a few minutes later the wort turned hazy as hell.... like NE IPA hazy. Normally after the chill down everything settles out and i have crystal clear wort. Not so this time. Even after a few hours in the cold the wort didn't clear. Hoping its not permanent as it would be a damn shame to ruin a 15G batch like that.
No whirlfloc or Irish moss? Admittedly its been a bit since I read the details on Brewtan B but I remember getting the impression it wasn't a stand alone clarifier. I thought it was more about metallic ions in the wort and something about Fenton reactions.
Interestingly, this Vicant stuff may have its own issues I had forgotten about due to the vitamin c (ascorbate) ..."The ability to donate one or two electrons makes ascorbate an excellent reducing agent and antioxidant. However, in the presence of catalytic metals, ascorbate also has pro-oxidant effects, where the redox-active metal is reduced by ascorbate and then in turn reacts with oxygen, producing superoxide that subsequently dismutes to produce H2O2" http://flipper.diff.org/apprulespathways/pathways/6861
However, together with something like Brewtan the two might accomplish what people are going for.
I use whirlfloc every time, except this one time, and another time when i had too many HBs during a brew day and just forgot. The wort was brilliantly clear until i added the BB to the kettle and kicked on the whirlpool. In hindsight i should have used the whirlfloc, but it is what it is at this point. Fingers crossed it clears.
