Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Jwin]

So, in the interest of low o2 post fermentation, I'm looking at keg priming.
I do 11g batches in a 60l Speidel. I purge kegs with starsan/co2, then gravity feed through a purged hose I to kegs, feeding the co2 out of the keg back to the FV. I do a good amount of hoppy brews and kegging with a few gravity points left isn't viable with 2 kids, 2 acres and a 50+ hour work week. I do swell the FV lid with co2 before and during cold crashing to avoid o2 suckback. I'm working g on a more elegant solution there.
My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.
I found these:http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/316_Stainless_Steel_Luer_Fittings/64135

A 7/16 - 20 unf would mate with a 1/4 MFL barb but I can't seem to find one, even in plastic, and those stainless fittings are pricey.

Anyone else have a solution to this?

 

[TexasWine]

So, in the interest of low o2 post fermentation, I'm looking at keg priming.
I do 11g batches in a 60l Speidel. I purge kegs with starsan/co2, then gravity feed through a purged hose I to kegs, feeding the co2 out of the keg back to the FV. I do a good amount of hoppy brews and kegging with a few gravity points left isn't viable with 2 kids, 2 acres and a 50+ hour work week. I do swell the FV lid with co2 before and during cold crashing to avoid o2 suckback. I'm working g on a more elegant solution there.
My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.
I found these:http://www.coleparmer.com/Category/316_Stainless_Steel_Luer_Fittings/64135

A 7/16 - 20 unf would mate with a 1/4 MFL barb but I can't seem to find one, even in plastic, and those stainless fittings are pricey.

Anyone else have a solution to this?

What if you just opened the lid ever so briefly and poured the priming solution in? The point of keg priming with low DO brewing is to scavenge oxygen, right? So any oxygen introduced by opening the lid and gently pouring in priming solution should be used up.

Seems that you could even do this before transferring to the keg.

Or, what if you hooked up your Speidel to the keg during fermentation and allowed it to purge co2 through it? Connect the Speidel to the keg's liquid post. Then run the keg's gas post over to a blow off. If you do this, you could pre-prime the keg with your priming solution before fermentation. When fermentation is done, do your transfer as usual and your done.

 

[Jwin]

Or, what if you hooked up your Speidel to the keg during fermentation and allowed it to purge co2 through it? Connect the Speidel to the keg's liquid post. Then run the keg's gas post over to a blow off. If you do this, you could pre-prime the keg with your priming solution before fermentation. When fermentation is done, do your transfer as usual and your done.

I have considered this but that would only take care of one keg and it would still push o2 into the keg as co2 production begins.
I'm thinking removing the post and shooting the solution into the keg with a syringe would probably be the easiest way

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

What if you just opened the lid ever so briefly and poured the priming solution in? The point of keg priming with low DO brewing is to scavenge oxygen, right? So any oxygen introduced by opening the lid and gently pouring in priming solution should be used up.

That's what I've been thinking. Treat the keg as normal then quickly add the priming solution and follow up with purging at 30psi afterwards. The time between opening the keg and purging the headspace is only a few seconds. That shouldn't leave much for the yeast.

 

[Bilsch]

What about adding your priming solution to the fermenter sometime before the transfer to keg? You could inject through the airlock port just before hooking up your co2 return line from the keg.

 

[Jwin]

What about adding your priming solution to the fermenter sometime before the transfer to keg? You could inject through the airlock port just before hooking up your co2 return line from the keg.

Again, the fact that it is 2 kegs comes into play. Not sure it would get evenly distributed

 

[Edelst0ff]

...

My thought is to use a 20ml syringe to prime the keg but interfacing it is the issue.

...

Anyone else have a solution to this?

Here are professional dosage fittings. Maybe some of them are of inspiration?

http://www.wagnerinox.at/Injektoren-Mischer-Mixer-Carnonator-Carbonisierung-Co2-Dosierung-Co2-Dosiergeraet-Kohlensaeuremischgeraet-Kohlensaeure-Mischgeraet-Kohlensaeureinjektor-SO2-Konnektor-SO-Connector-SO2-Dosier

However, I would consider a Venturi tube in your case

http://m.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Venturi+injector&isNewKw=1&isRefine=true&mfs=GOCLK&acimp=0&_trksid=p2056088.m2428.l1313.TR2.TRC2.Xventuri+injector&sqp=venturi+injector

They are cheap and are designed for mixing. I use them regularly for aerating wort. I don't see why you cannot use them to inject priming solution inline as you transfer.

Considering how cheap they are and the multitude of applications during the brewing process, a Venturi tube is most likely what you are looking for.

Hope this helps

 

[TexasWine]

I have considered this but that would only take care of one keg and it would still push o2 into the keg as co2 production begins.
I'm thinking removing the post and shooting the solution into the keg with a syringe would probably be the easiest way

It doesn't matter if oxygen is pushed into the keg as CO2 production begins. There is so much CO2 produced that essentially all oxygen will be removed from the receiving keg.

And you can always make a manifold with a tee and a little bit of hose so you can connect the Speidel to both kegs at the same time. This is exactly what I've done, in reverse. My I plan is to ferment in two kegs and transfer to a single serving keg. I built a hose manifold to connect the two gas post of the fermenters to the liquid post of the serving keg.

Another idea. Instead of removing the post, just use a gas disconnect and some hose and siphon the solution in.

But I still think the easiest way is to just pop the lid open and put it in. And it's still keeping things LODO.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for all the replies.
So, we aren't stressing short term o2 exposure post fermentation?
My worry is, how much damage can/will be done if I am exposing still beer, and it takes X amount of hours for the yeast to scavenge the o2 that was taken up before it begins taking on a strong fermentation from the priming solution.
It just doesn't make sense to me that we are more lax at this point. Post fermentation is where I have always stressed o2 pickup, pre LODO. Now, I am no where near LODO compliant in my brewing process, but I'm slowly implementing some practices as time and budget allows.
I am thinking now to just dose an inline filter and go from there. Something simple like this.
https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-50-Mesh-T-Line-Strainer-6UJJ0
Using a filter would, in theory, allow me to skip cold crashing, but keep hops from clogging up the poppet during transfer and avoiding o2 exposure until I can find an accurate way to apply .5-1 psi to the Speidel

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Look over the posts on scavenging mash water with yeast. The yeast work very quickly. If your being careful and still taking steps to minimize O2 they really dont have much to take up and you may never get above the flavor threshold anyways.

 

[Jwin]

Look over the posts on scavenging mash water with yeast. The yeast work very quickly. If your being careful and still taking steps to minimize O2 they really dont have much to take up and you may never get above the flavor threshold anyways.

Thanks
Will do

 

[schematix]

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of gas dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

 

[Yeastieboy]

http://immaculatebrewery.com/oxygen-and-mashing/

 

[Edelst0ff]

Both Kunze and Narziss mention that too much oxygen even in secondary is to be avoided.

The less the better, even in secondary.

A simple single purge should do.

I shortened my dip tubes about 5 years ago, but wouldn't do it nowadays.

Why?

Too much remaining yeast can become a liability and a full length dip tube can help discharging it.

In the end it's about preference and personal experience. That's why we put the paper out there so that people can feed back into it and help us improve the production of fine lagers at home

 

[TexasWine]

Curious, anyone out there try low DO brewing on a Picobrew Zymatic? I have never seen one of these contraptions in person, but from what I can tell low DO brewing would be impossible with one.

 

[techbrau]

Curious, anyone out there try low DO brewing on a Picobrew Zymatic? I have never seen one of these contraptions in person, but from what I can tell low DO brewing would be impossible with one.

Doubtful. That thing is a HSA machine.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of liquid dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

This is where a meter is really needed but my inclination is the majority of it is still helpful. The idea, at least to me, is to get the lowest possible TPO and reduce spikes in exposure as much as possible. By making sure the keg your packaging into has been purged your cutting down on the amount of exposure.

 

[popquizkid]

duplicate post

 

[popquizkid]

Underletting the MLT does not result in any lost efficiency, in and of itself.

You still stir the grain unless you are recirculating. Stirring is needed when no recirculation is implemented; no need to be heavy handed - just move the grain around in the water a bit is good enough. Failure to do one of those things will result in significant loss of sugars. Performing a batch sparge may help alleviate some of that loss, but to no great degree, AND you increase your potential for oxygen pickup. Additionally, traditional batch sparging using single/double sparges is a poor method to utilize for low O2 brewing due to the simple fact that when you drain the grainbed to collect your first runnings you replace the space the water/wort was occupying with _____ (fill in the blank). No sparge is a much better method if your cooler can hold it.

At least, this has been my experience with low O2 brewing. Oh yeah, and targeting a 40-50mg/l NaMeta concentration with no sparge brewing is an ideal place to start unless you're splishy splashy.

Ever since I kegged my Marzen on Friday and added priming sugar to the keg I've been thinking about this....

Since according to @techbrau this is still 'LoDO', is it really necessary to go through the time intensive steps of liquid dip tube shortening, water purging, fermentation gas purging, etc, etc if you always keg prime? (Edit: I am not discounting the necessity of controlling mash oxygen. I am talking specifically about post-fermentation handling here.)

Seems that if this is still allows one to brew LoDO and get the results it might be a more approachable method for many due to the decreased complexity.

Curious - what is the supposed benefit of liquid dip tube shortening?

I have not done LODO as described in PDF on the hot side but on cold side I have been doing CO2 keg purging and closed transfers for a while. It definitely improved the stability of my hop forward beers. I think this is good practice whether you force carb or prime.

 

[schematix]

Curious - what is the supposed benefit of liquid dip tube shortening?

I had a typo in my original post. I meant to say gas post. The benefit of that in a serving keg is to eliminate the air pocket trapped at the top of the keg when you water purge it. In a fermenter it gives you an extra 1/2" of head space, which means more beer into a serving keg!

I'm having buyers remorse about getting new gas tubes that are shorter. They aren't of the same quality as the originals and the f'n poppets don't seat correctly, leading to loss of pressure.

I bent the liquid dip tube in my fermenting kegs so that it picks up from the side (at the corner between the radius-ed part and the straight wall). It leaves about 1L of beer (in addition to yeast/trub) in the keg. I'm going to try to reduce that by half now that i've seen how much it leaves. I think i can get myself another pint per keg easily.


So far my change list for next brew is:

Improve Mash Efficiency (last one was embarrassing)
-Decrease mill gap slightly (down to 0.032" from 0.035)
-Stir gently 1 time after under letting to break up any remaining dough balls.

Process Simplification
-Skip water purging of receiving kegs. Instead only do a single purge with tank CO2, then allow to be purged with fermentation gasses.

Improve batch yield
-Fill fermentation kegs 1/2" past top weld. So far with 2-3 psi of primary fermentation pressure kraussen hasn't exceeded 1cm
-Bend liquid dip tubes back half way between bottle center pick-up and side wall.

Secondary fermentation
-Hopefully be home to catch FG +6 points, if not then do priming sugar again.

 

[TexasWine]

Improve batch yield
-Fill fermentation kegs 1/2" past top weld. So far with 2-3 psi of primary fermentation pressure kraussen hasn't exceeded 1cm.

Wait, so you plan to fill your 5 gallon corny kegs to 1/2" past the top weld! Wow!

I've never done primary fermentation in a keg under pressure, but that's the plan. And if I can ferment essentially 5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg doing so, that's good news.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Process Simplification
-Skip water purging of receiving kegs. Instead only do a single purge with tank CO2, then allow to be purged with fermentation gasses.

Secondary fermentation
-Hopefully be home to catch FG +6 points, if not then do priming sugar again.

this is my current approach for maintaining hop character. it seems to work well. I'd like to somehow combine this with natural carbonation

 

[schematix]

Wait, so you plan to fill your 5 gallon corny kegs to 1/2" past the top weld! Wow!

I've never done primary fermentation in a keg under pressure, but that's the plan. And if I can ferment essentially 5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg doing so, that's good news.

2 times in a row i had 1cm kraussen, and that was with 2 different lager strains. Since i have shortened gas dip tubes, i figure i have about 2" above the top weld before i hit either the PRV or liquid dip tube so this should put me closer, but still give me some wiggle room.

I think this will only work with lagers, and only under pressure. Don't go too high on the pressure though. 3 psi is already equivalent to almost 7' of water column. A little pressure does wonders to collapse weak bubbles though (just need to overcome the surface tension).

P.S. forgive me for mixing metric and imperial units in the same post.

 

[specharka]

I haven't read this whole thread, but admittedly I am quite curious.

There are certain elements to this dissertation that I take fundamental exception to (the idea of Germans dosing their water with SMB is frankly laughable). But the unmistakable craftsmanship of German beer is without peer -- I tried an Andechser Vollbier once and it was better than any lager I've had prior to or since. So you could say I'm not going to deny a technique I've never implemented.

I think an especially useful application is the American IPA, where massive dry hop additions get withered away by inevitable oxidation. Which is why so many hop-forward breweries have switched to canning lines for shelf life preservation. I can see the appeal.

On a homebrewing level, there's many techniques I would be willing to try or adopt. Such as:
Under letting the mash
Mashing immediately after milling the grains
Bubbling CO2 periodically through the mash
Sparging with an auto sparge through a closed system
Using a closed system for cold side fermentation
Carbonating beer via a keg and spunding valve

I'm unwilling to adopt a system that requires me to pre-boil water or use SMB. It's just a waste of energy and I've got an exceptional intolerance to sulfites -- white wine gives me terrible headaches. But if there's any practical homebrewing methods of de-aerating water without massive wastes of water and electricity, I'd be willing to try it.

 

[pinto]

it would be laughable if the authors of the PDF said German brewers were adding SMB But, they didn't. they were pretty clear that SMB was a homebrew solution. As far as preboiling, the GBF guys have posted about usiing yeast/dextrose in the mash water to scavenge O2. that is the method that I've chosen to do since it is simple and seems effective

 

[techbrau]

Degassing (via preboiling or yeast scavenging) and SMB are the cornerstones of LODO. It will not work on the hot side without both of those.

On the cold side, you can still increase the shelf life of hoppy beers by following our practices there. But at the homebrew scale, you will not get the delicate, low oxygen malt flavor that beers like Andechs Vollbier Helles have without using SMB.

We did several experiments in October 2015 using only preboiled water but no SMB. The final results were no different taste-wise than the same beer made with non-preboiled water. At this point several of us bought our dissolved oxygen meters and confirmed that the preboiling was not effective because we measured significant oxygen pickup at dough in, as well as diffusion over time. As soon as we added the SMB to the preboiled water is when we finally achieved the delicate malt flavor.

Andechs (and all of the other large scale German breweries) have specialized equipment which minimizes the exposure of the wort to atmospheric oxygen. They also take advantage of physics via the square cube law, meaning that the surface area to volume ratios of commercial sized mashes are far, far, far smaller than homebrew mashes. This is fundamentally why we need SMB.

 

[Yeastieboy]

For BIAB brewers; how could we mimic underletting?

I utilize a bag within a stainless basket in my kettle. Typically, I just pour my grain into the bag/basket, with it already residing in the filled kettle.

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Add the grain sack first then rack water in using a siphon. This is what I've been doing with the Braumeister. Treat the water in coolers overnight then rack to kettle when it's time to mash in. I'm going to put ball valves on the coolers to make it even easier.

 

[TexasWine]

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct?

If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing. Pre low DO days I would lower the bag quickly and stir thoroughly. Now I lower slowly and stir gently.

I think I need to slow down the lowering even more because last time I noticed quite a few trapped bubbles escaping even after the grain was completely submerged. With a ratcheting pulley it's not hard to do. But I do get impatient.

 

[Jwin]

Perhaps adding the grain as you lower would be beneficial, but keep the grain level above the water.lower, stir gently, add grain, repeat.

 

[TexasWine]

Just doing some lunchtime reading at work and came across the book Brewing Science and Practice in our online library. Skimmed it a bit, looking for the word "oxygen". Below are a couple of excerpts.

Section 6.2 Mashing In
To minimize oxidative changes in the mash or wort, the mash may be gently pumped into the vessel at the side or up through the base, so minimizing turbulence and the uptake of oxygen. Degassing the mashing liquor, flushing the grist with an inert gas such as nitrogen or carbon dioxide and filling the base of the vessel with an inert gas to displace air and so limit oxygen pick-up may also be used(Yamaguchi et al., 1997).

Section 6.4.2 Temperature-programmed infusion mashing
It is not surprising that brewing practices in mainland Europeand the UK are converging on the use of infusion mash mixing vessels and lauter tuns or mash filters. In addition there has been a convergence in vessel designs, incorporatingrefinements that confer increased heating efficiency, ease of use, reduction in shear bystirring, flexibility, and reductions in oxygen uptake.

 

[stpug]

For BIAB brewers; how could we mimic underletting?

I utilize a bag within a stainless basket in my kettle. Typically, I just pour my grain into the bag/basket, with it already residing in the filled kettle.

I am wondering if I could added grain to the bag/basket outside the kettle and then slowly lower it into the water to mimic underletting? I feel like the grain would just float and create a giant dough ball but perhaps not. Anyone ever tried this?

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct?

If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing. Pre low DO days I would lower the bag quickly and stir thoroughly. Now I lower slowly and stir gently.

I think I need to slow down the lowering even more because last time I noticed quite a few trapped bubbles escaping even after the grain was completely submerged. With a ratcheting pulley it's not hard to do. But I do get impatient.

I agree with ^TexasWine and have been doing the same when brewing no sparge BIAB batches. A slow lowering of the grain into the water is pretty fncking close to an underlet (which I do when using multiple vessels) - close enough in my book

Another option might be milling directly into your strike water (with bag already in there, of course) - the downside might be the initial temp shock to the first part of the grain hitting the superheated strike water. To minimize this potential you could mill into mash temp strike water and slowly heat back up to mash temp once you've finished milling all grain. This method would eliminate doughball issues at the cost of grain dust, which is deal-breaker for me since I brew indoors.

 

[Bilsch]

Just doing some lunchtime reading at work and came across the book Brewing Science and Practice in our online library. Skimmed it a bit, looking for the word "oxygen". Below are a couple of excerpts.

George Fix, in his 1999 book, had a paragraph on HSA oxidizing phenols and creating herbstoffe or grain astringency. He noted that these off flavor defects are often misdiagnosed and not associated with oxidation.

But of course after reading this, so many years ago, I promptly ignored it because as we all knew.. HSA is a myth.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm unwilling to adopt a system that requires me to pre-boil water or use SMB. It's just a waste of energy and I've got an exceptional intolerance to sulfites -- white wine gives me terrible headaches.

SMB is not thermally stable and when an aqueous solution of metabisulfite or sulfite is boiled, it breaks down. If I recall correctly, the primary biproduct is the sulfur dioxide which goes off as gas. You really don't need to worry about SMB when its added pre-boil. Sulfite survives in wine because it is never boiled.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

SMB is not thermally stable and when an aqueous solution of metabisulfite or sulfite is boiled, it breaks down. If I recall correctly, the primary biproduct is the sulfur dioxide which goes off as gas. You really don't need to worry about SMB when its added pre-boil. Sulfite survives in wine because it is never boiled.

I'm curious, how is it that people are getting sulfur bombs if the SMB is being broken down in the boil? Hoping you can shed light on this you always have great info.

 

[techbrau]

It is not being completely broken down, which we have verified with sulfite test strips. I think this is actually a good thing as it offers additional protection against oxidation at the air/wort interface during the boil.

The trick is tuning your dose and system such that you end up with a reasonable amount of sulfite post boil, and have enough in the wort during the mash/lauter/boil to protect you.

Anecdotally, I and others have noticed no sulfur bomb problems when the post boil sulfite concentration is under 25 ppm. Also anecdotally, it seems that you need at least ~40 mg/l SMB in a typical no sparge system to have adequate protection. Some people have noted that the wort has a better malt flavor at 60 rather than 40, but of course it will be system dependent.

 

[jddevinn]

I'm curious, how is it that people are getting sulfur bombs if the SMB is being broken down in the boil? Hoping you can shed light on this you always have great info.

The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

The"sulfur bombs" are in ales using to much smb and are easily off gassed by passing co2 through the beer or laggered out

Im up to date on that part...

It is not being completely broken down

this is what I was trying to find out more about

 

[Yeastieboy]

Good question. I'm assuming by BIAB you're really referring to single vessel systems, not multi vessel, correct? If so, I've been doing exactly this for a long while now, even before I started down the path of low DO brewing.

Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...

 

[TheHairyHop]

Correct. Single vessel recirculating eBIAB system. I'm brewing a pilsner this Friday night. I will grind into the bag and promptly and slowly lower it into the heated water. We shall see how it works for me!

On a side note; also going to try a 5-minute pre-boil followed by a 40mg/l SMB treatment for giggles along with other measures to keep DO low. Interested to see if I really can generate a wort similar to what's being described by the German fellas.

I guess after the pre-boil, one simply has to wait for the temp to fall to strike temp? Seems like this would take a while, especially with the lid on...

I don't see why anyone would boil given the dextrose/yeast method