Inline GFCI solution for 240v keggle

[carcinogen]

Hello all!

I am in the process of converting my keggle to electric right now using a 4500w/240v element. The mounting is all done, so now I'm taking some special time to protect the circuit.

I plan to run my keggle on the 240v/30a dryer circuit, and I need GFCI protection. The plug is an old NEMA 10-30 with ground. I'm not as familiar with 240v outlets, and I've never seen a 4-prong in this style (the dryer uses a bonded neutral/ground) so I need to pop down to Home Depot to see if I can find an accessory cord to fit this outlet, or if I need to upgrade to the 4-prong NEMA 14.

Originally I wanted to use a spa GFI breaker panel, but I have not been able to find one in 30a, only 50a. The main breaker box is a Federal Pacific style (not possible to upgrade since it is a rental house) and I'd like to have a redundant breaker on the circuit since these FPI breakers are notorious for failing to trip.

Alternatively, there's this, an inline GFCI:

30A Ground Fault Interrupt w/MPlug

It looks like it has a NEMA 14 plug on it.

I have read much on this forum and have learned quite a bit about how to set up this keggle from the experts (using a PID and Auber Instruments SSR), but I am unsure what solution is best to provide the best protection, as it seems most brewers use 240/50a, which is not easily available to me because the range is hard-wired to the main panel and is in a part of the basement with poor access. Has anyone crossed this bridge before with 30a power? Can anyone point me to a product that would meet my needs?

 

[Duckfoot]

I am in the same boat, as I ran an extension from my dryer outlet (which I don't use since I also have natural gas) to my garage for brewing...

And actually, that looks like the outlet I installed in the garage... I think you just saved me some $$$... Cheaper than get a 30A GFCI breaker for my panel box...

 

[Bullbythehorns]

I am using a 50A GFCI Spa sub panel breaker, but I ran 10 gauge wire so I installed a 30A non-GFCI breaker in my box for the overload protection. The 50A GFCI is only utilized for GFCI protection in this case and the 30A breaker is used for overload protection. For my electrical setup, this was the most cost-effective solution since I picked up the spa panel for $25.

 

[Duckfoot]

Hmmmm... That may be an alternative... Cheapest spa panel I could find was around $100... I must keep looking...

 

[Bullbythehorns]

I was lucky and found it at Home Depot on clearance.

 

[Photopilot]

$50 for a spa panel at the depot for me. Not on clearance.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Can someone clarify? If you have a hot tub sub panel you don't need a GFCI as it's built in..... correct? This is the point of the box from what I gather. I just like to be triple sure when working with electricity and gas.

 

[skarude]

I have the ebay gfci cord above for a project I started a while back. I am not yet using it, but it is built quite well and expect it will be exactly what I need for a 30A setup.

 

[Photopilot]

Can someone clarify? If you have a hot tub sub panel you don't need a GFCI as it's built in..... correct? This is the point of the box from what I gather. I just like to be triple sure when working with electricity and gas.

The spa panel is a sub panel of maybe 100 or 125 amps You could use it off a dryer outlet or a range one and rely on the circuit breaker protecting the circuit for overvoltage. You could also run a CB off your main panel to power the whole box up to the total of the sub panel 100 or 125. Included in the spa panel is a 240V 50 amp GFCI CB to be used for the heating element. There is also room for 4 or so other CBs if needed.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

The spa panel is a sub panel of maybe 100 or 125 amps You could use it off a dryer outlet or a range one and rely on the circuit breaker protecting the circuit for overvoltage. You could also run a CB off your main panel to power the whole box up to the total of the sub panel 100 or 125. Included in the spa panel is a 240V 50 amp GFCI CB to be used for the heating element. There is also room for 4 or so other CBs if needed.

How are you able to run it off of dryer outlet (my situation) when the panel is rated at 100-125A? Is this 100-125A over 3-4 circuits?

I currently have a 30A dryer outle that I'm looking to either hook up a GFCI extension cord or outlet or possibly something like this if cheaper and just as safe.

 

[Photopilot]

If your dryer is electric it is 240v or you will be waiting a long time to dry your clothes. The panel has two 125Volt circuits. For most runs in the house it runs one of the 125V circuits and a ground wire to the outlets. In a 240V run it runs both of the wires carry the two different 125V circuits adding up to 240V. 125+125=240, okay ignore the math I think the actual voltages are just averages of what you get so two hot lines gets you 240, a hot and a neutral gets you 125, and two hots and a neutral gets you a 240/125 line which is really what you want in the panel so you can run the elements(240) and pumps and whatever else at (120).

The 30 Amp cord will work but if you get this you are paying around $70 for 30 amps. If you are running a 4500 watt element and a pump and maybe one or two things else you may run out of power. It does not matter anyways if you are using your dryer outlet you will be limited to 30A anyways. At 30A you could just be running a big element and a pump not much more. Thats all I plan to start out with.

For me I would rather pay less ($50) for a spa panel that could be used to run a lot of different things possibly in the future. In the futurer hard-wiring the spa panel off a 50A circuit or 125A one from the main panel and run a HERMs element, E-keggle element and as many pumps your heart desires. To me its a win-win, cheaper and more long term potential. The only draw back is having a larger Spa Panel Box to contend with.

 

[carcinogen]

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the HD spa box for my setup. One question, if anyone knows: if I only plan to run my element and nothing else on 240 for the time being, is it possible to simply cap off the neutral on the plug cord and run separate redundant hard-wired grounds from the box? It appears that I need to replace my dryer plug in order to unbond the neutral and ground to avoid a dangerous condition, but since I won't be using the neutral (element only has two inputs + ground to keg, 120v for PID sourced from different circuit) this seems like it might be a sensible workaround. Does the GFCI breaker require a neutral input in order to function correctly? As before, I will only be using the sub box for its GFCI functionality, not its over-amperage protection.

 

[Photopilot]

Carcinogen,
I have yet to wire mine but have been asking the same questions here and have wired my own house so I know a little about internal wiring. Please wait for a confirmation of my info before putting your hands into the outlet box.

The 3 wires you see in the dryer outlet is one neutral with 2 hots. This means you are getting 120/240v into the dryer, with no ground. I am assuming the ground makes it somewhere into the box so it is in there somewhere. The questions is how are you going to control your heating element? It is either on or off, unless you come up with the perfect element size to just boil your wort, you need some type of temperature control. I am going to be working with a PID and relay. It will need 120v for this. One option to try is to put an extension on your box holding the dryer outlet which will bring it proud of the wall. You can go out one of the knockouts from this box extension and add an external outlet(mounted on the wall) around $11 at the Depot. Get a 30A 4 wire outlet for this assuming there is a ground available somewhere in the original box.

Factor in about $200 for temp control and new wiring above and beyond the spa panel. Yep it keeps adding up.
Just re-read your post and saw you have the PID already factored in. My plan is to run a 120V from a GFCI outlet to run extras in the 120V range. Just to keep as much available 240V for potential future elements.

 

[illin8]

I'm not an electrician but I think Photo is correct. A NEMA 10-30 outlet is non-grounded (sans dedicated ground) in the traditional sense (hot - hot - neutral)...but it actually is/was grounded through the neutral (if that makes any sense).

 

[carcinogen]

Photo,
I already have a PID and SSR for this setup that will be powered by a separate 120v circuit. I see no reason at this time to hardwire the PID to run from the dryer circuit, as an existing 120v circuit is available. It's neither pretty nor elegant, but at this point I am concerned about getting this up and running rather than putting it on display. Since I live in a rental, I cannot legally modify the electrical system without violating the terms of the lease. So, the next best solution is a plug-in one. I do not have any plans to mess with the breaker box. If I have no need for a neutral to run any 120v circuit, can I dispense with having to unbond the neutral and ground in the NEMA 10 outlet and instead run my own direct ground, bypassing the outlet? Or will I continue to have issues?
I suppose that my question can be summarized like this: in a NEMA 10 outlet setup, is there no earth ground at all? And will the gfci breaker function if it is not fed a neutral?

 

[Brewmoor]

I have the cord you mentioned from ebay. It is fantastic for my situation. I too am in a rental and did not want to put a manufacturer specific breaker in. I am sure I will move on and I do not want to waste money. Not as convenient but, my solution to powering pumps and my 1500w element for my heat exchanger is a second circuit. So I have two cords zip tied together. the GFCI 240v cord and my 120v cord. It is really not that bad.

You will have plenty of power from that cord to run the 4500w element. I would venture to say you could also pull a leg and power a march pump too. You definitely will not be near 30amp but you might be higher then the 80% rule people talk about.

 

[Photopilot]

I am seeing a trend here, we are all renters, maybe we are spending too much money on brewing to own our own home?

I do not pretend to be an expert on GFCI nor am I an electrician I just play one on the internet. 12 years ago I read 2 books and owned the current NEC code book and wired my own home. Its in a different state though so I rent also. A bit about my experience with GFCIs though. I was trying to cover all options with my limited option so just pulled as many wires as I could. I used a 12/3 wire to pull two runs (separate lines with their own CB) to two GFCIs for two runs in the kitchen. Maybe I was thinking of running a tablesaw and router table in the kitchen. It turns out the shared neutral on the two GFCIs caused either the main panels or GFCIs to pop can't remember which. The point I am trying to make is only a voodoo priestess can understand the workings of GFCIs. There is a thread about GFCIs "Dads an electrician and says GFCIs uneccessary" that has a lot of more knowledgable people that me trying to figure it out. I do not know what will happen with a GFCI if the neutral or ground is missing or you borrow it from another circuit. If I do not post on Monday figure it was a bad idea.

Someone suggested a 4500 W element and a march pump can be run off a 30A CB, but not a little giant pump.

I will be putting together my panel this weekend and see what i got. My plan is to run 240V from the dryer to the spa panel for the heating element through a PID. Next to where I will set this up is a GFCI outlet that I will use to power my PID. I am trying to plan for future expansion which will include a pump, HLT element and maybe more, so figuring in only 30A is limiting future growth. I already own a 4 prong dryed chord so that affects my plans, but will look at my electric oven outlet for possible more power.

If I get my panel setup and tested this weekend I will post some pictures.

 

[trboyden]

Quick update to an old thread in case someone else stumbles across this like me, that is looking for an inline GFCI cord set in lieu of permanently installing a GFCI circuit. Just purchased a TRC 220v 30 amp inline GFCI cordset from CableOrganizer.com for $113 and change. Considering that a GFCI breaker for my GE panel plus associated cabling and outlets were going to cost well above this, I think it is a good deal and time saver. Now I'll just make up an extension cord from my existing dryer outlet to power the brew rig.

 

[dipole]

Quick update to an old thread in case someone else stumbles across this like me, that is looking for an inline GFCI cord set in lieu of permanently installing a GFCI circuit. Just purchased a TRC 220v 30 amp inline GFCI cordset from CableOrganizer.com for $113 and change. Considering that a GFCI breaker for my GE panel plus associated cabling and outlets were going to cost well above this, I think it is a good deal and time saver. Now I'll just make up an extension cord from my existing dryer outlet to power the brew rig.

Thanks! Just got a 25 footer for $145. A lot easier than making the extension cord plus a breaker or spa panel.

 

[trboyden]

Nice, I hadn't seen that one or I would have got that one instead. I probably spent as much after making up a 25 ft extension cord. Note that it comes with L6-30P and L6-30R plug ends. The specs and pictures I saw said L5-30P and L5-30R plug ends, so I got the wrong plugs to go with the cord set. The prong pattern is slightly different even though they are essentially the same thing. It makes a difference because L5's are half the cost of L6's. At least at Lowes.

Thanks! Just got a 25 footer for $145. A lot easier than making the extension cord plus a breaker or spa panel.