Infection on gas side? Regulators?

[SLRSLY]

Hey all,

I'm having this extremely annoying issue that I cannot seem to figure out.
Ever since moving into a new house I have not had one batch of drinkable beer from the keg. It's really hard to describe the taste but it's slightly sour and maybe a tiny bit metallic. I find the beer to be not drinkable. Every batch ends up with the same flavor after sitting in the keg for a week.

The facts:
-Used to make fantastic batches with the same setup
-Moved with the kegerator setup
-Had the water tested and it came back with no major flags. Water tastes great.
-Keg cleaning/sanitation has not changed. If anything they are cleaner as I now take them apart to clean since this started happening.
-I usually set it and forget it (psi)
-Last batch I burst carbed (30psi for 2 days, down to 12psi) and the beer was delicious for about 5 days, then I started noticing the off taste. Another week later and I can't even stomach it
-Replaced everything on the gas side except for the regulators. Hoses, QDs, fittings, new CO2 tank, new CO2 source, even the clamps
-Replaced liquid lines, thoroughly cleaned taps

I am getting ready to keg a new batch and I'm afraid it's going to take on the same flavor. So I ask, is it possible to have an infection in the regulators? I can't think of anything else it could be.

 

[SLRSLY]

Couple more things to mention:
-All grain
-I always use new packets/vials of yeast
-I am getting my grain from the same LHBS as before

 

[beersk]

Have you backed beer up into your gas lines before? If not, I don't know how it could possibly be a gas line/regulator issue.
I had a similar issue where I had backed up some beer into the co2 line and found a bit of green mold in one of my disconnects. After about a week in the keg my beers were turning into a butterscotch bomb. It was weird. And the even weirder thing was, I was only noticing it on IPAs. I had that problem for nearly two years before I found it. I cleaned the gas lines and disconnects and everything has been solid since. I have some serious homebrewer doubt now that I'm trying to work through. Traumatized...

So this has happened on several batches even after replacing most of your gas side of things?

 

[LovesIPA]

If the flavor is fine when the beer is kegged but picks up an off-flavor after that, then it's getting infected somehow. This sounds VERY similar to what I experienced last year as well. As it turns out I wasn't cleaning the kegs well enough and the beers were becoming infected after a few days in the keg.

Can you explain in detail your keg cleaning process?

Also, when is the last time that your keg lines/taps/disconnects were disassembled and cleaned?

 

[SLRSLY]

Hey Beersk,

Thanks for the quick reply.
Since replacing everything (but the regulators) on the gas side I have had the same off flavor on one batch (of one) which was a wheat. What really bothered me was that after burst carbing the keg it was delicious and I thought I had taken care of it. But after a few days the same off flavor came back. I really don't want to take the chance again until I figure it out. I have not kegged an IPA since this issue started but that's what I have on deck now. And butterscotch Galaxy IPA does not sound too appealing

I have also noticed the beer gets significantly darker as the taste comes on. This wheat that I have kegged now was nice and light at first and has since turned a dark orange, kind of like the color of blue moon.
I'm really considering ripping apart my regulators and bleaching them at this point.

 

[duboman]

I wouldn't think it's the regulator either and it seems as though you have taken everything else into account and replaced it.

I would suggest perhaps bottling a portion of this next batch so you can have some bottled and some kegged. If the flavor appears in both then you know it's not the keg set up but something in your overall process and leans toward an infection. If it only appears in the keg then it obviously has something still in the keg system.

Even though the water tastes great does not mean it won't cause a reaction in the beer to cause these off flavors. Sour to me means a possible infection, metallic is usually associated with something metallic in your process that gets into the beer. There have been some people reporting that they've gotten a bad batch of co2 but you said you switched that out so not sure.............

EDIT: Are you sure you are not tasting carbonic bite or too much co2 meaning over carbonated? That can lend a tinny, metallic taste to a beer

 

[SLRSLY]

Hey LovesIPA,

Thanks for the reply.
The flavor is indeed fine when it goes into the keg. It's even good for a few days after.
For my keg cleaning:
-Take apart completely
-Soak 24 hours in hot water and unscented oxi/tsp90/citric acid filled to the brim- I used to use PBW but it's just too expensive
-Scrub everything with a carboy brush
-Dip tube brush on both both tubes
-Rinse with very hot water thrice
-Fill with iophodor with all parts in keg
-Dump sanitizer and reassemble

That's pretty much the same way I did it before but once this issue started I bought a dip tube brush and took everything apart to make sure I didn't miss anything. If you see something I may have missed I would seriously love to know. I am hoping this is something I can remedy this week.

 

[LovesIPA]

Clean out a keg and carbonate some water. That will rule out the entire gas side.

I doubt it's the regulators or the gas lines.

 

[SLRSLY]

Clean out a keg and carbonate some water. That will rule out the entire gas side.

I doubt it's the regulators or the gas lines.

That is a great idea. The only bummer is that it will take a week to see if this flavor comes on. Thanks.

 

[LovesIPA]

I would make one change to your keg cleaning process.

Only fill the keg up about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way. Let it soak for 20-30 minutes. Then put a homer bucket on top of the keg, upside down. Flip the whole thing over so the keg is sitting upside down in a right side up bucket. Lift the keg up so you get enough cleaner in the bottom of the bucket and let the cleaner soak the outside of the keg for 20-30 minutes. This trick will clean the top outside - and more importantly, the posts - of the keg just as well as the inside.

 

[SLRSLY]

I wouldn't think it's the regulator either and it seems as though you have taken everything else into account and replaced it.

I would suggest perhaps bottling a portion of this next batch so you can have some bottled and some kegged. If the flavor appears in both then you know it's not the keg set up but something in your overall process and leans toward an infection. If it only appears in the keg then it obviously has something still in the keg system.

Even though the water tastes great does not mean it won't cause a reaction in the beer to cause these off flavors. Sour to me means a possible infection, metallic is usually associated with something metallic in your process that gets into the beer. There have been some people reporting that they've gotten a bad batch of co2 but you said you switched that out so not sure.............

EDIT: Are you sure you are not tasting carbonic bite or too much co2 meaning over carbonated? That can lend a tinny, metallic taste to a beer

Like I said I did have the water tested. I posted the results here.
I may have to see if I can borrow some bottling equipment. I got rid of all mine when I successfully (once was) moved to kegging. But that's definitely one thing I have wanted to do because it would completely rule out the keg.

As for the carbonic bite, I'm not sure. In the past I have overcarbed one batch and seemed to me like it was actually less carbonated then before it was overcarbonated. I do know that this taste is different. Not sure if that came out right. I will look into the carbonic bite though.

 

[SLRSLY]

I would make one change to your keg cleaning process.

Only fill the keg up about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way. Let it soak for 20-30 minutes. Then put a homer bucket on top of the keg, upside down. Flip the whole thing over so the keg is sitting upside down in a right side up bucket. Lift the keg up so you get enough cleaner in the bottom of the bucket and let the cleaner soak the outside of the keg for 20-30 minutes. This trick will clean the top outside - and more importantly, the posts - of the keg just as well as the inside.

Thanks much. I will give this a try.
My LHBS does a keg swap and the last one they gave me is kind of beat up aesthetically. I'm thinking about taking this one in for a swap which would save me from having to clean and sanitize. They are very trustworthy and I trust 100% that they would give me a ready to use, sanitized, pressurized keg.

 

[LovesIPA]

As for the carbonic bite/carbonic acid theory, we all know what beer tastes like, both flat and carbonated. If you're tasting something entirely different (and bad) about the beer I think you can safely rule this out.

They are very trustworthy and I trust 100% that they would give me a ready to use, sanitized, pressurized keg.

"It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust anybody."

 

[SLRSLY]

As for the carbonic bite/carbonic acid theory, we all know what beer tastes like, both flat and carbonated. If you're tasting something entirely different (and bad) about the beer I think you can safely rule this out.



"It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust anybody."

Haha that sounds like something I would say. On second thought maybe I will clean it myself. Either way I'll know I got rid of the keg that had the funky beer in it.

 

[firestem4]

EDIT: Sorry, wrong post.

 

[SLRSLY]

As for the carbonic bite/carbonic acid theory, we all know what beer tastes like, both flat and carbonated. If you're tasting something entirely different (and bad) about the beer I think you can safely rule this out.



"It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I don't trust anybody."

Last night I made my second trek out to my favorite LHBS to grab another keg to put into the rotation. They sell what the call a 'sanikeg' and they offer swaps as well. Which I've done multiple times in the past.
The first time I went I came home set everything up, made up some sanitizer, got the beer out of the cold crash, etc. Just to find out the keg was not only NOT cleaned and sanitized, it was visibly dirty. Like black crud inside and smelled funky.
I called the shop and they said they would set one aside for me. So I made the drive (another 45 minutes/tolls/potholes each way) again yesterday. When I picked the keg up I was told the guy I spoke to on the phone personally cleaned and sanitized the keg. So after a very insincere 'sorry' I was back on my way home.
Here we are today, you guessed it, with yet ANOTHER dirty keg. Same black crud inside the keg. Same funky smell.
I wont bother calling them and having to drive 1.5 hours (on a good day) to take another chance. I will simply never go there again.
My biggest problem with this....these kegs are sold and swapped as being cleaned and sanitized. Ready to keg. And twice I have been burned. Most recently after being reassured the keg was personally cleaned for me. Gee thanks. They charge $10 to swap for a clean keg and $55 without the swap. I could buy a dirty keg MUCH cheaper.

If anyone happens to read this and lives around the Bucks area stay away from Keystone Homebrew's 'sanikegs'. I'm wondering how many dirty kegs they have sold me in the past. I have spent thousands at this place but I think I'll start ordering online from someone else. Any recommendations?

 

[sennister]

I don't think I have seen where they do a clean keg swap service. Seems odd. I get swapping out CO2 tanks but kegs???

Anyhow I agree with the post from a while back as it is what I do. I fill 2/3-3/4 of the way with sanitizer. Let it sit. Then put a bucket over the top, flip the entire thing over. Then lift the keg a bit to get some sanitizer outside that so it covers the entire top of the get. This will get anything living on the top no matter if it is inside or outside the keg. I also use Starsan personally. I know everyone likes their own brand but what about trying a different product? May be something built a resistance to the cleaner you are using. For the $10 plus gas/tolls/time it would buy a lot of Starsan or another sanitizer. I like the foam with Starsan as it helps keep things clean.

I forget what you said you swapped out. I know you were talking a lot about the kegging side. What about the Autosiphon and hose if you use one to transfer to the keg?

 

[SLRSLY]

It's actually soaking in PBW now. I don't know what the hell was in the keg but I'm not taking any chances. It's completely broken down and soaking. But I will take that advice when sanitizing.