improving efficiency on high grav beers.

[KyleWolf]

Hey everyone,

So I am going to be brewing a pretty big beer here soon. Lookin right now, at 75% efficiency, 1.097 for 5 gals. oh, FYI, this is all-grain. 18lb grain bill. I order out of brewmaster's warehouse and normally hit 80%...but with this gravity I doubt a 5% give-take will be enough.

I know it is near impossible to get 75% efficiency out of such a high gravity brew. But I want to get as close as possible. I am looking to up my mash water and boil for 120 min instead of 60. also, do a 90 minute mash wish extra stirring. What else besides adding DME would anyone here suggest for hitting gravity? I am interested in the tips and tricks from people of pulling out all those extra sugars.

Thanks in advance.
Kyle

 

[samc]

I disagree with "near impossible to get 75%". Tell us what kind of equipment you will be using and the recipe.

 

[KyleWolf]

my equipment is a 10gal home depot mash tun cooler with a double connection steel braid, 15.5gal keggle, and 50ft immersion chiller. Don't think the last two really do anything for the info, but might as well add em. The grain bill is 18lbs for a 5 gal batch. Lookin right now at 120 min. boil as long as no one thinks it will scorch the beer too much. Here is the message I put to my home brew group.
"Hey everyone.

I really haven't tried my hand much at high gravity all-grain recipes, so I
thought I would give it a shot. I already have the grains for this so I can't
take any grains out, but I can add some in. But the hop profile and any
techniques you think would better my efficiency, etc. would be most welcome.
This is what I have so far.

Imperial India Brown Ale

14 lb 12oz Two-Row
01 lb 00oz Brown Malt
00 lb 12oz Crystal 60
00 lb 12oz Special Roast
00 lb 08oz Flaked Oats
00 lb 06oz Chocolate Malt

1.75oz 60min Columbus
0.75oz 35min Columbus
2.00oz 20min Willamette
1.50oz 05min Willamette
1.00oz 05min Amarillo

0.50oz Columbus dry hop
1.00oz Amarillo dry hop
1.00oz Willamette dry hop

5 gal batch, 120 min boil
predicted OG 1.097
predicted FG 1.023 (actually aiming for 1.016 using a re-pitch after 7 days)
IBU approx 95-98
estimated efficiency: 75%
Mash at ~150-152

Pitching on a yeast cake of WLP001 from a batch of Amarillo Pale Ale I will be
kegging the same day

Things I have in inventory for quick changes are...
Yeast- Wyeast British Ale 2
Hops- have a little (.25-.5)oz of Simcoe, 1-1.5 oz Warrior, 1.00oz Chinook, and
MAYBE 0.50 oz of Centennial laying around somewhere.

Thanks everyone
-Kyle
"

5.95 gal into the mash
Post absorption 3.25 gal + 4.08 gal sparge for 7.5 gal total pre-boil. (this includes loss from hopping). Also, to hit my target FG, I plan to have an extra pitch of WLP001 ready to knock the beer down a few more points. and of course I have DME ready in case I don't hit my target...though that is a last resort

 

[JoshuaWhite5522]

According to John Palmer on a rescent episode of brew strong, You'll be really hard pressed to extract anything better than 1080 out of your mash tun. Obviously, don't sparge, if anything do two seperate mashes to make up you total boil volume. DME or LME are the best ways to up your gravity, and if you keep them under 20% of the amount of fermentables in your wort you shouldn't taste the extract. A longer boil will reduce increase you gravity, but a long boil may create flavor compounds you don't want in your beer


http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong You can find the podcasts here on high gravity brewing.

 

[944play]

predicted FG 1.023 (actually aiming for 1.016 using a re-pitch after 7 days)

I really doubt 001 will have trouble getting to your target FG on its own. You probably don't want to use a whole cake though.

Decoction can help with efficiency, especially if the crush is not so great.

 

[babalu87]

According to John Palmer on a rescent episode of brew strong, You'll be really hard pressed to extract anything better than 1080 out of your mash tun.

What was his explanation?

It just doesnt make any sense, if he cant get 1.080 wort out of a 10 gallon cooler something is just wrong.

 

[KyleWolf]

Unless the reason has to do with equilibrium of sugars in the grain to sugar in the wort, I also don't quite understand that reasoning. I know of course that you do get lower efficiency on high gravity beer, but I can only imagine your true limitation is the ratio of water to grain. Of course I am also not one who should be doubting someone like John Palmer, I will listen to that brew strong.

I like your idea of a double mash. I may give that a try.

944play- I have never done decoctions, only single infusions, but perhaps it is something to try. Thanks for the info on the 001, glad to know it can most likely get the job done. Not a whole yeast cake? Alright.

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

Just do your normal process and drop your efficiency 10%. No extract, no 120 min boil, no decoction.

I normally get about 80-83% on normal gravity beers. I did a double IPA last weekend and planned the recipe for 65% from what I read on here about getting horrible efficiency out of high gravity beers. I was supposed to only hit 1.08 and ended up with a 1.09 beer on accident. It'll still be good. I was planning on 65% and ended up with about 72% efficiency.

Ten gallon round cooler was just about maxed out but could have still a little bit more.

 

[JoshuaWhite5522]

What was his explanation?

It just doesnt make any sense, if he cant get 1.080 wort out of a 10 gallon cooler something is just wrong.

It basically has to do with sugar saturation in the wort. His claims was that first running are usually in the 1070 to 1077 range, and from there they diminish. Lowering the ratio to 1qt to lb of grain will get you up to 1080-1082, but at the cost of fermentability of the wort. At the start of the mash the coversion will be fast due to concentraion of enzymes, however as sugars in the increase you end up losing conversion due to the concentration of sugars in the wort. Basically there is no more room in the water you have added for the newly coverted sugars. To tell the truth I have not attempted this in parctice, and have never tried to max out my mash tun. I would imagine that a few more points could be gained or lost depending in the degree of crush, different rests, or other techniques. Everything he said seemed to make sense. You could increase your water to grist, have a thinner mash that you could then concentrate during the boil. That would up your gravity.

 

[babalu87]

It basically has to do with sugar saturation in the wort. His claims was that first running are usually in the 1070 to 1077 range, and from there they diminish. Lowering the ratio to 1qt to lb of grain will get you up to 1080-1082, but at the cost of fermentability of the wort. At the start of the mash the coversion will be fast due to concentraion of enzymes, however as sugars in the increase you end up losing conversion due to the concentration of sugars in the wort. Basically there is no more room in the water you have added for the newly coverted sugars. To tell the truth I have not attempted this in parctice, and have never tried to max out my mash tun. I would imagine that a few more points could be gained or lost depending in the degree of crush, different rests, or other techniques. Everything he said seemed to make sense. You could increase your water to grist, have a thinner mash that you could then concentrate during the boil. That would up your gravity.

Then how did I make a 1.096 English Barleywine without any smoke/mirrors etc?

I've been maxing out my mash tun for quite a while.

 

[JoshuaWhite5522]

I don't know, what does your typical mash look like for something like that?

 

[babalu87]

I don't know, what does your typical mash look like for something like that?

I'd have to pull the recipe , I dont know it off hand but know the mash tun was full

I've done 12 gallons of 1.068 Sticke Alt in a 10 gallon cooler.

 

[Walker]

I'd have to pull the recipe , I dont know it off hand but know the mash tun was full

I've done 12 gallons of 1.068 Sticke Alt in a 10 gallon cooler.

+1. I've made 10 gallons of 1.064 in a 10 gallon cooler, so I should be able to get much higher than 1.080 on 5 gallons.

Also, if you are batch sparging, one thing I found out by accident is that taking my total sparge water and cutting it into two equal portions and doing two half-sized sparges made my efficiency go up from 75% to about 81%.

 

[babalu87]

Actually, on that 1.096 Barleywine if I remember correct I had to water it down because I didnt want to be over 10% ABV and it was pretty high going into the kettle.

 

[terrencepickles]

According to John Palmer on a rescent episode of brew strong, You'll be really hard pressed to extract anything better than 1080 out of your mash tun. Obviously, don't sparge, if anything do two seperate mashes to make up you total boil volume. DME or LME are the best ways to up your gravity, and if you keep them under 20% of the amount of fermentables in your wort you shouldn't taste the extract. A longer boil will reduce increase you gravity, but a long boil may create flavor compounds you don't want in your beer


http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong You can find the podcasts here on high gravity brewing.

I listened to that podcast, and find that solution lacking. No-sparge translates to lower efficiency, translates to more grain needed in the mash tun, translates to lower water-to-grist ratio. How does that help?

I like brewstrong, but sometimes they don't seem to realize the difference between practical and impractical advice. Not everyone brews on a top-tier system.

So far the high gravity episodes have been pretty disappointing.

 

[KyleWolf]

I think for this particular case I am going to do 1 of 2 things.

1) To split the grain bill and run side-by-side mashes.

split the grain and mash water from 5.94 gal to two 3 (rounding) mashes. and sparge each with just under 2 gal.

2) Do a double mash, meaning keep 1/2 gal of the first runnings, let the rest go in the kettle, then add back in the 1/2 gal of first runnings + approx. 2.25gal mash temp water (basically the same volume of water in the mash post water absorption) this makes. Mash again. Drain and sparge with remaining approx. 1.7 gals needed to bring the kettle to 7 gal for a 120min boil.

First runnings are added back in to ensure there is enough enzyme still present to convert.

 

[permo]

I have tripled batched sparged before with a large grain bill. I got %75 efficiency on an all grain 1.095 OG stout before. Not to shabby. Increase to 90 minute boil as well.

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

+1. I've made 10 gallons of 1.064 in a 10 gallon cooler, so I should be able to get much higher than 1.080 on 5 gallons.

Also, if you are batch sparging, one thing I found out by accident is that taking my total sparge water and cutting it into two equal portions and doing two half-sized sparges made my efficiency go up from 75% to about 81%.

I agree with this. since I started splitting my sparge water into 2 batches I get better efficiency.

 

[TheMan]

I'm doing a 2.5 gallon 1.120 barleywine tonight. I can let you know what I learn tomorrow if you arent brewing it tonight. I just planned for 8% lower efficiency than I normally get. I normally do 2 sparge rounds, I've done 3 before and a 3rd typically doesn't add much more in gravity points so I don't see it too worthwhile.

 

[KyleWolf]

cool. I am excited to hear. I am not brewing this till the 22nd. I am waiting on the yeast cake of the Pale Ale I put into primary yesterday.

 

[Walker]

FYI: on my brew last night, I did the double batch sparge thing again (I have no choice when making 10 gallon batches).

85% efficiency. That's three 10 gallon batches I have made now with efficiencies of 81%, 82%, and 85%.

My 5 gallon batches (with single batch sparge) are pretty much aleays dead-on 75%.

 

[TheMan]

An update for you:
I brewed my barleywine last night. Was supposed to get 1.120 OG. I decided to leave all efficiencies at normal level, 83%. I figured this would help for future batches.

I got 66% eff. going into the boiler, which is the efficiency I am most concerned with. This is 17 percent lower than I hoped for. It was only a 2.5 gallon batch so I do not know if that would affect it. Either way, looks like you should plan your efficiency lower than you think.

As for my batch, fortunately I only planned on fermenting 2 gallons of this so I just boiled it down some to reach my intended OG. It's fermenting away happily right now.

 

[warriorpoet]

I have recently, for my 2IPA's, gone with the 1:1 ratio of H2O to grain. No stuck sparge either and a pretty decent efficiency with a OG: 1.088 and FG: 1.016...Now that makes a lively beer!

 

[whatsleftofyou]

In regards to multiple sparges, once again Kai for the win:

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/File:Batch_sparging_grain_weight.gif

This is further evidenced by the previous posts about doing 2 and 3 sparges.

 

[KyleWolf]

I just wanted to put out there I just completed my Imperial India Brown Ale.

I broke the 18lb grain bill into two 9lb groups and mashed in two mash tuns at 152 for one hour. Then did a single batch sparge for a total volume of 8 gal. I did a 120min boil and accounted for wort loss due to hop with a 1.25gal/hr boil off rate.

@ 75% efficiency I was calculated to have an OG of 1.097, I ended with 1.092. I think all things considered it turned out very well. Calculated a 72-73% efficiency. So, just throwing this technique out there for consideration.

 

[wonderbread23]

Then how did I make a 1.096 English Barleywine without any smoke/mirrors etc?

I've been maxing out my mash tun for quite a while.

I think you're missing the point. On the show, the point is that the highest running out of the mash tun you'll be able to achieve is 1.080 or so. You can then boil that down to whatever gravity you want as well as add additional sugars from the sparge. This is how you were able to hit 1.096. I can guarantee however that you were not getting any runnings out of the mash tun high than 1.080-1.082.

 

[smokinghole]

I'm planning on brewing up a big, huge Russian imperial stout in a couple months. I'll have to check this 1.080ish statement. It will be a 28lb grain bill. This one is going to take some planning on my part I do suspect.

 

[KyleWolf]

28lbs? for 5 gals? that will be impressive. I recommend the course of action I took, only maybe break it up into 3 mashes instead of 2.

 

[smokinghole]

Well 6 gallons actually, have to figure for trub losses.

 

[pjj2ba]

I did a reiterative mash of a big beer (1.100 OG). I can't recall my efficiency but I do know it wasn't an issue. Basically I took half the grains and mashed as normal, then drained and did a very small sparge. I then emptied the mash tun, put in the second half of the grain and used the WORT from the first mash to mash-in the second bunch of grain. One nice advantage was then I didn't have to do a long boil to get to my target OG. This also resulted in less kettle carmelization.

The solubility of sugars was not an issue. The sugars in Malt extract are still dissolved! I couldn't find anything in the scientific literature about the sugars inhibiting the enzymes either. Often the activity of starch converting enzymes are regulated by ATP levels in the cell. Since the cells in malt are dead, they aren't making any ATP when we mash. I still need to do another look at the literature some day.

 

[smokinghole]

I forgot about that method that was talked about in Radical Brewing. Maybe I'll do that on my RIS next month sometime.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[smokinghole]

28lbs? for 5 gals? that will be impressive. I recommend the course of action I took, only maybe break it up into 3 mashes instead of 2.

Well I did my beer on saturday. After constant tweaking I ended up with 32lbs of grain. I did two separate mashes didn't feel like doing three. I got great efficiency over all figuring for about 78% thanks to the long boil I did. Now I'm just waiting for it to go berserk. Thank god I ordered one of the oxygenation systems for the red O2 tanks for this brew.