I'm losing my mind over this

[divrguy]

I brewed a Racer 5 clone as my first ever batch, and used spring water. It came out great, but it was made with extract and bottled.

Go back in time. Do you like your tap water? If you like the taste of it... Use it for this test, if not, pick up some spring water, Pick up a new fermentation bucket or use a clean glass carboy that was cleaned with only a new batch or starsan and Water . Buy some spring water at your local market and don't mess with the water chemistry. Buy an extract kit from one of the large suppliers like Morebeer or AHS or Northern and do it. Bottle it in bottles that are clean. Don't use oxy.. PBW OR WHATEVER other cleaner. Water blast some racer 5 or Sierra Nevada bottles and then before you brew, rinse them with clean Starsan. Bottle. When it's done... Enjoy it. It will probably taste great!

This time buy a pre-made all grain kit and sub for the instructions above. When it is done, it should also most likely taste great.

Then start messing with your water again.... If it sucks..hmmmm .. Then keg...if it sucks... Hmmmm ...

Back to basics!

Most of the folks here have given you some fantastic advice but you seem to be dismissing all of them. Just my perception.. But maybe not true. RDWHAHB

 

[LovesIPA]

For "not having much time lately for brewing", you sure are turning out a fair volume of beer with 3 new batches!

I try!

Obviously something is very wrong in your set up. I really can't see any reason all of these beers should be getting lacto infections or getting off tastes. I can infer from your other posts that you know the brewing process and have good sanitation practices. Maybe you need to change out your plastic for new buckets/carboys/tubing. Dry hopping shouldn't introduce any infections - and there isn't much need to use "devices" to dry hop -- just throw the hops in.

I didn't change the buckets - the beer was great out of the fermentor, but every piece of plastic that touched the beer post-fermentation was replaced. The list is pretty short - the only plastic or rubber pieces that the beer touches are the autosiphon and the keezer lines. Both of which I already replaced while trying to track this problem down.

Maybe what you're considering pellicles and lacto infections aren't really infections? Maybe you can send some bottles of your "off" beers to someone to help you diagnose the flavor? Maybe your perceived off flavors aren't "off"?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this flavor isn't supposed to be there. If it was, I simply wouldn't drink beer. I would be on the home wine-making forum right now.

I'm frustrated for you. Sounds like its time to start over with some new equipment. Oh, and bottle a batch for heaven's sake to see if its the kegging's fault!

I really think that the keg cleaning issue was it. The dry-hopping issue is separate from what I can tell. Now, the beers I make that aren't dry-hopped are coming out really good.

Unfortunately, I haven't kegged a beer since the last update. I haven't been home more than 3 days in the last month.

When I could not get rid of a infection with StarSan and bleach, I used $25 worth of Hydrogen Peroxide (about same price as dumping 1 batch) from the $1 store, 50/50 mixed with water, soak everything for 3 days in it, it even killed the infection in the rubber parts.

Good luck my friend, Infections suck!

Cheers

Thank you, that is good advice. I have really tried to minimize the number of things that the beer comes into contact with. I don't take a sample from the beer. After kegging, I dump out some of the trub into a glass and cold-crash it overnight which gives me enough beer at the top to get a gravity sample.

The only thing the beer touches is the keg, the autosiphon, and the lines - when they get hooked up.

I'm pretty confident the infection problem is licked. Now I just have to figure out to dry hop without infecting it.

When you keg your beers that have to sit waiting for a tap,like the stout,did you at least fill the head space with some co2? Air in the head space isn't good.

Always! I purge the keg prior to filling, and then I vent it 4-5 times with CO2 before sealing it up.

The support I've received in this thread has (well, overall!) been great. I appreciate the helpful responses and sympathy.

 

[beertroll]

Are you dry hopping with pellets or leaf? I've never had any trouble with leaf hops, but pellets are far less likely to have any unwanted microbes hiding on them.

Also, the fact that you're having so many infection troubles even with really rigorous sanitation makes me wonder if it's something environmental. Lacto is everywhere, but maybe your brewspace just has a higher concentration of critters than is typical. Are you grinding your own grain, and if so are you doing it in the same space that you've been racking/dryhopping/etc? If your mill produces a lot of dust, that might be a source of contamination, since lactobacillus likes to hang out on grain husks.

 

[LovesIPA]

Are you dry hopping with pellets or leaf? I've never had any trouble with leaf hops, but pellets are far less likely to have any unwanted microbes hiding on them.

I use pellets pretty much exclusively.

Also, the fact that you're having so many infection troubles even with really rigorous sanitation makes me wonder if it's something environmental. Lacto is everywhere, but maybe your brewspace just has a higher concentration of critters than is typical. Are you grinding your own grain, and if so are you doing it in the same space that you've been racking/dryhopping/etc? If your mill produces a lot of dust, that might be a source of contamination, since lactobacillus likes to hang out on grain husks.

I do mill my own grain, but the mill is out in the garage and I always keg inside the house. I store the grain in food grade buckets with gamma seal lids. The dry-hopping happens in my office which is where the grain is stored but the only thing I do there is weigh it out and store it.

Damn, now you've got me thinking. Time to move the grains and scale into the garage and see if that helps, I guess.

 

[DocScott]

Jackpot!!

I bet it's from the grains being in the same room as your dry hopping.

Back to making ipas!!

 

[IslandLizard]

Jackpot!!

I bet it's from the grains being in the same room as your dry hopping.

Back to making ipas!!

Although it's not a good practice, it doesn't explain this:

[...]I kegged a stout a couple of weeks ago. When I opened the fermentor, it clearly had a lacto infection starting.[...]

This points to your beer infections starting way early.

Apart from weighting and milling, even mashing in blows a lot of grain dust into the air...

 

[unionrdr]

I like the way my barley crusher mill is mounted to the wood plate that covers the bucket the crushed grains fall into. & I mash/boil in the kitchen,away from the fermenters. I keep the bucket lid on the crushed grains as well.

 

[LovesIPA]

Although it's not a good practice, it doesn't explain this:

This points to your beer infections starting way early.

Apart from weighting and milling, even mashing in blows a lot of grain dust into the air...

I believe that was an anomaly. It's literally the only beer I've ever brewed that became infected in primary that wasn't dry-hopped. I left the fermenter open for a few minutes and then racked another brew on top of the yeast cake.

 

[unionrdr]

That likely was it. The open FV let nasties settle into it.

 

[LovesIPA]

Finally got around to kegging the ESB that I brewed on 11/12.

Delicious! No sign of infection at all.

 

[jchudon]

Hi there!

I've got a couple of things comming to my mind reading all of the above.

1st - Your kegging system is most likely fine. Even if a part was super nasty, it'd take more than 3 days before you could taste any infection. You could drop a whole pack of Reoselare in a 5 gal of fermented beer @ 42f and you wouldn't taste a difference in 3 days. To me, if it's an infection, it occurs way sooner in the process. (maybe the dry hopping with lacto comming from the grains)

2nd Glacier water is not RO. If you add these minerals to glacier, it will taste metallic.

3rd You've tried to carbonate water and it tasted fine. Now try to carbonate your built up water recipe and see how it taste.

4th Are you using 5.2? If so, dump that ****. I can tase a teaspoon in 5 gal.

5th Stop your yeast reusing alltogether. A fresh pack of yeast will be more viable and will take over your beer faster leaving less chance for an infection to root itself.

6th MOST IMPORTANT : Change one thing at a time.

Let hope we'll put our finger on it and I wish you the best of luck!

 

[LovesIPA]

1st - Your kegging system is most likely fine. Even if a part was super nasty, it'd take more than 3 days before you could taste any infection. You could drop a whole pack of Reoselare in a 5 gal of fermented beer @ 42f and you wouldn't taste a difference in 3 days. To me, if it's an infection, it occurs way sooner in the process. (maybe the dry hopping with lacto comming from the grains)

So what about a batch that wasn't dry-hopped, tasted fine at kegging time, and began to taste infected after 3-4 days in the keg? The fermenter is never opened prior to racking. I don't check gravity until after it's kegged.

2nd Glacier water is not RO. If you add these minerals to glacier, it will taste metallic.

Why do you think it's not RO? Why would adding non-metallic minerals to water make it taste metallic?

3rd You've tried to carbonate water and it tasted fine. Now try to carbonate your built up water recipe and see how it taste.

I have tasted the strike and sparge water with minerals added and it doesn't taste metallic at all. It doesn't taste like much of anything. I haven't carbonated it, but since I've tasted RO water both flat and carbonated, and I've tasted the strike water flat, I don't know what tasting it carbonated would accomplish.

4th Are you using 5.2? If so, dump that ****. I can tase a teaspoon in 5 gal.

No, and from what I've read, I never will.

5th Stop your yeast reusing alltogether. A fresh pack of yeast will be more viable and will take over your beer faster leaving less chance for an infection to root itself.

Yeah I've only tried it once or twice and I haven't been real happy with the results. I am planning on using only dry yeast or yeast built up from slants from now on.

6th MOST IMPORTANT : Change one thing at a time.

Troubleshooting 101!

Also, I spoke too soon about the ESB. After 3-4 pints I could definitely taste the beginning of another infection. This one had some white floaties that were not yeast rafts in the fermenter when I opened it. I racked it anyway but apparently this one is another lost batch.

SO FRUSTRATING.

At this point my next step is to bleach bomb all my fermenters.

 

[jchudon]

So what about a batch that wasn't dry-hopped, tasted fine at kegging time, and began to taste infected after 3-4 days in the keg? The fermenter is never opened prior to racking. I don't check gravity until after it's kegged.

- What I meant, is that the infection, if any, is likely occuring prior to kegging.



Why do you think it's not RO? Why would adding non-metallic minerals to water make it taste metallic?

- Got Glacier here too and it's not RO. (Maybe yours is, I can't know for sure) Over mineraled water or worth taste fine to me untill it gets slightly carbonated. Then, to me, with the carbonic acid, it tastes metallicish.




I have tasted the strike and sparge water with minerals added and it doesn't taste metallic at all. It doesn't taste like much of anything. I haven't carbonated it, but since I've tasted RO water both flat and carbonated, and I've tasted the strike water flat, I don't know what tasting it carbonated would accomplish.

- Why not eliminate a possibility? (It'd prove that there's nothing wrong with your water)


No, and from what I've read, I never will.

- I've got a 99% full jar if anyone wants it


Yeah I've only tried it once or twice and I haven't been real happy with the results. I am planning on using only dry yeast or yeast built up from slants from now on.

-


Troubleshooting 101!

- Yeah but it's so tempting to try to fix everything at once


Also, I spoke too soon about the ESB. After 3-4 pints I could definitely taste the beginning of another infection. This one had some white floaties that were not yeast rafts in the fermenter when I opened it. I racked it anyway but apparently this one is another lost batch.


SO FRUSTRATING.

- Amen

At this point my next step is to bleach bomb all my fermenters.

- Now it'll all taste like an iron band-aid

I suck at multiquoting.... see my replies in the message above

- 7th : What about your chilling regiment? Could you introduce something there? Worth uncovered? Not cooled fast anough? Chiller unsanitary?

As for the soft plastic parts, I tend to replace everything each season.

Are you using some kind of funnel to pitch your yeast? Is it really clean?


- 8th : In the end, the only true way to figure this out would be to use the scientific method. Make a supposition, test it out, adjust, repeat.

Predicates : Water menerality is the source
Test : Carbonate your built up water and taste
Result : ?

Predicate : An infection occurs
Test : Try to ferment sterile worth with bugs that would be found on each piece of equipment you use. Make a batch of worth, split it on macon jars and dip a different piece of equipement cleaned the way you use too in each. See what ferments.
(i.e. swirl 200ml of sterile worth in a cleaned keg then transfer to sterile mason jar)
(i.e. 2 - fill a mason jar then dip that auto-siphon in it)
Result : ?

Predicate : .....



It's tedious but we'll figure this out buddy!

 

[Seven]

Yeah I've only tried it once or twice and I haven't been real happy with the results. I am planning on using only dry yeast or yeast built up from slants from now on.

Apologies if this was mentioned previously but the "building yeast up from slants" sticks out to me. Perhaps rule out a possible infection caused by yeast propagation and handling by using only new/fresh yeast.

Have you tried "beverage grade" C02? I know there's a lot of hubbub over beverage grade vs. plain 'ol C02 from a welding shop... but maybe it's worth a try if you haven't done so already. I got my beverage grade stuff from Airgas.

 

[TrickyDick]

I can't believe I'm posting..

How much do you know about sterile and sanitary technique? I assume you wash your hands and clean your nails? Is it the manner in which you are handling the equipment afterward that reintroduces bacteria or other micro organisms?

I rapidly read or skimmed the entire thread. It seems you're now using hot PBW and water for cleaning. What about for sanitizing the kegs? I saw you soak them inside and out. Once cleaned, with PBW, you need a sanitizer. PBW does not sanitize. Unclean equipment cannot be satisfactorily sanitized. I assume you already know and understand the difference between cleaning and sanitizing. Star San and most other sanitizers actually kill the bugs during the drying process. Are you letting them dry either partially or fully? This can be challenging to do without introducing new airborne bacteria. I typically let my kegs drip dry inverted on a clean and sanitized countertop. The lids I often boil in water for 10 minutes to sanitize.

Your plastic fermenters have been replaced? Plastic can scratch and develop safe harbor for bacteria in the scratches, where they can resist cleaning. I use a nylon scrubbie to clean plastic to avoid scratching, or else just a good amount of time in the washer (see next paragraph).

Consider investing in the marks keg and carboy washer. Its a great invention, really just a sump pump and a cleverly designed tray that hold a gallon of water. I wish it had a heating element for prolonged cleaning cycles with hot water, however, that may help to ensure a clean and sanitized keg. You can clean just about all your equipment with this washer.

Have you replaced the seals on the dip tubes in the keg? The ones that are under the gas and liquid connection posts that need a deep well socket to remove? I read you had disassembled these. Have you brushed the long dip tubes out?

You really should bottle at least one beer if even just one bottle, maybe even in a plastic screw top soda bottle that's been cleaned and sanitized if you're feeling really anti-bottling. That will help pinpoint source of infection or off flavor.

Though it seems unlikely, I wanted to point out that co2 cylinders can develop contaminants on the INSIDE, such as benzene, and other nasty stuff. I think you've ruled that out with your cylinder exchange.

Good luck. Recall anything that contacts the beer after it's been boiled can be a potential source for infection- strainers, spoons, funnels, airlocks and stoppers, racking canes and tubing, valves, keg components, etc. also, the yeast container itself such as the sachets or smack packs and scissors used should be sanitized.

Good luck

TD

 

[LovesIPA]

I suck at multiquoting.... see my replies in the message above

I read them, but I'm too lazy to pull them out and respond to them.

- 7th : What about your chilling regiment? Could you introduce something there? Worth uncovered? Not cooled fast anough? Chiller unsanitary?

Chiller is boiled for 15 minutes. The wort is chilled in about 30 minutes and is covered by a sanitized pot lid the whole time. At least, as much as I can cover with the chiller still sticking out.

As for the soft plastic parts, I tend to replace everything each season.

I've replaced everything multiple times.

Are you using some kind of funnel to pitch your yeast? Is it really clean?

No, I pour it straight into the bucket from the flask.

Predicates : Water menerality is the source
Test : Carbonate your built up water and taste
Result : ?

Water tastes fine. It's not the water.

Predicate : An infection occurs
Test : Try to ferment sterile worth with bugs that would be found on each piece of equipment you use. Make a batch of worth, split it on macon jars and dip a different piece of equipement cleaned the way you use too in each. See what ferments.
(i.e. swirl 200ml of sterile worth in a cleaned keg then transfer to sterile mason jar)
(i.e. 2 - fill a mason jar then dip that auto-siphon in it)
Result : ?

All equipment has been replaced.

Apologies if this was mentioned previously but the "building yeast up from slants" sticks out to me. Perhaps rule out a possible infection caused by yeast propagation and handling by using only new/fresh yeast.

Done. Made several batches using dry yeast packets. Haven't made one from a fresh vial but I can't see what the difference is between that and dry yeast.

Have you tried "beverage grade" C02? I know there's a lot of hubbub over beverage grade vs. plain 'ol C02 from a welding shop... but maybe it's worth a try if you haven't done so already. I got my beverage grade stuff from Airgas.

No, I haven't specifically gotten beverage grade CO2.

I can't believe I'm posting..

How much do you know about sterile and sanitary technique? I assume you wash your hands and clean your nails? Is it the manner in which you are handling the equipment afterward that reintroduces bacteria or other micro organisms?

Of course my hands are well-scrubbed.

I rapidly read or skimmed the entire thread. It seems you're now using hot PBW and water for cleaning. What about for sanitizing the kegs?

I saw you soak them inside and out. Once cleaned, with PBW, you need a sanitizer. PBW does not sanitize. Unclean equipment cannot be satisfactorily sanitized. I assume you already know and understand the difference between cleaning and sanitizing.

Yes I know the difference between cleaning and sanitizing. I have mentioned numerous times in this thread that I use star-san.

Star San and most other sanitizers actually kill the bugs during the drying process. Are you letting them dry either partially or fully? This can be challenging to do without introducing new airborne bacteria. I typically let my kegs drip dry inverted on a clean and sanitized countertop. The lids I often boil in water for 10 minutes to sanitize.

This is counter to everything I have read on this site. What happened to "don't fear the foam"?

Your plastic fermenters have been replaced? Plastic can scratch and develop safe harbor for bacteria in the scratches, where they can resist cleaning. I use a nylon scrubbie to clean plastic to avoid scratching, or else just a good amount of time in the washer (see next paragraph).

I haven't replaced the fermenters - yet. See the update below.

Consider investing in the marks keg and carboy washer. Its a great invention, really just a sump pump and a cleverly designed tray that hold a gallon of water. I wish it had a heating element for prolonged cleaning cycles with hot water, however, that may help to ensure a clean and sanitized keg. You can clean just about all your equipment with this washer.

Is this required to make a batch of beer that doesn't taste like ****?

Have you replaced the seals on the dip tubes in the keg? The ones that are under the gas and liquid connection posts that need a deep well socket to remove? I read you had disassembled these. Have you brushed the long dip tubes out?

Yes I have replaced all the seals. That is the first thing to do when you obtain a used keg.

 

[LovesIPA]

Ok - time for an update.

I have gotten completely paranoid about sanitation. I soak everything in hot water/PBW then star-san. I spray star-san everywhere when I keg a beer. Nothing gets put together dry. I completely disassemble every tap and soak everything before putting it back together after every single batch - partly because they are all infected now. I cannot make a beer that doesn't take like **** anymore. I haven't made a drinkable batch in months now. Everything I make, no matter how careful I am, turns out infected.

Now what's happening is that every batch is infected right out of the fermentor. I just kegged a centennial IPA. I dry-hopped it on 2/5 with 1 ounce of Centennial, cold crashed it on 2/10 and kegged it today. It tasted terrible, right out of the fermentor. I have had so many infected batches from dry-hopping - no matter how I do it - that every fermentor I have is garbage. I am throwing out all my fermentors. They are about $25 each with the lid and I have five of them. Good-bye.

At this point I am INCREDIBLY frustrated with this hobby and a hair away from selling all my equipment and finding a new hobby that DOESN'T FRUSTRATE THE LIVING **** OUT OF ME.

Sorry I have to vent. I haven't made an IPA that was worth drinking in MONTHS. I have had a handful of batches that came out decent out of 48 and counting. Maybe I just suck at this. Maybe I'm a retard. I have read a half dozen books, spent countless hours on this forum, can speak intelligently about the entire brewing process, but can't make a batch of beer that doesn't make me want to dump it down the drain.

&*(%^(&*%*&^@%#&*^%@*@%^!#&*

 

[uatuba]

How much?


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[LovesIPA]

Oh I forgot to mention. I bleach bombed all my fermenters. A quart of bleach in each and then I filled with water and let it sit for hours.

Shipping a keezer to Alabama might be cost prohibitive and I'm not splitting it up.

 

[uatuba]

I can drive and I have a big truck (it's kind of our thing in Alabama).

Seriously, I just don't think it's an infection unless you're seeing visible signs of it each time you're getting this weird taste. I really firmly believe it's the "doctoring" you're doing to the water. I know you've vehemently denied that it is, but sometimes we overdo things to the point of causing unintended side effects. You haven't carbonated the doctored water to check and see (a good idea), and you haven't bottled (a other good idea), and you haven't allowed a carbonated beer to go flat in the fridge (another good idea), so it's difficult to say what it is and what it isn't.

All we know is that you've seen a pellicle or two, and that you've got a weird taste. Oxiclean forms hydrogen peroxide and will, in fact, kill the bacteria that can infect your beer (even though it's not rated as a "sanitizer"). If you're positive it's an infection, replacing your cheap plastic equipment would be the next logical step if soaking in Oxiclean, then StarSan at 1.5 strength, then a rinse, then exposure to direct sunlight until it dries fails to stop the infection.

That's always worked for me--I haven't tossed any of my equipment since I've started brewing in 2004. Then again, I've not had a confirmed infection (although I did get a TERRIBLE diacetyl taste in a lager I did last year, and I used the d-rest and everything, so it could have been an infection...ended up dumping it).




Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[LovesIPA]

I can drive and I have a big truck (it's kind of our thing in Alabama).

Seriously, I just don't think it's an infection unless you're seeing visible signs of it each time you're getting this weird taste. I really firmly believe it's the "doctoring" you're doing to the water. I know you've vehemently denied that it is, but sometimes we overdo things to the point of causing unintended side effects.

Hopefully we'll find out: www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/reasonable-water-profile-459666/

You haven't carbonated the doctored water to check and see (a good idea), and you haven't bottled (a other good idea), and you haven't allowed a carbonated beer to go flat in the fridge (another good idea), so it's difficult to say what it is and what it isn't.

I'll figure out mineral additions for a typical IPA batch in 5 gallons when I get a break from work. At this point I'll try anything.

But since my batches are now coming out of the fermenter tasting bad, I it points me even more toward an infection, but this time I think it's coming from the plastic in the buckets.

All we know is that you've seen a pellicle or two, and that you've got a weird taste. Oxiclean forms hydrogen peroxide and will, in fact, kill the bacteria that can infect your beer (even though it's not rated as a "sanitizer"). If you're positive it's an infection, replacing your cheap plastic equipment would be the next logical step if soaking in Oxiclean, then StarSan at 1.5 strength, then a rinse, then exposure to direct sunlight until it dries fails to stop the infection.

It survived a bleach bomb. Is this really going to work? I'm just going to buy new fermenters. And I haven't used Oxyclean in long time now.

That's always worked for me--I haven't tossed any of my equipment since I've started brewing in 2004. Then again, I've not had a confirmed infection (although I did get a TERRIBLE diacetyl taste in a lager I did last year, and I used the d-rest and everything, so it could have been an infection...ended up dumping it).

It frustrates me to to end that other people are able to make perfectly good, drinkable beer and I can't seem to get this seemingly simple thing right.

 

[ja09]

I hear you with how frustrating things can be, especially when they keep happening. To regain some confidence, try a good extract kit in a new fermenter with spring water, no additions, 2 packets of dry yeast sprinkled on top, good ferm temps, and bottle half of it. If it comes out good you can start checking things off. If it comes out bad then your effed.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[uatuba]

Hopefully we'll find out: www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/reasonable-water-profile-459666/







I'll figure out mineral additions for a typical IPA batch in 5 gallons when I get a break from work. At this point I'll try anything.



But since my batches are now coming out of the fermenter tasting bad, I it points me even more toward an infection, but this time I think it's coming from the plastic in the buckets.







It survived a bleach bomb. Is this really going to work? I'm just going to buy new fermenters. And I haven't used Oxyclean in long time now.







It frustrates me to to end that other people are able to make perfectly good, drinkable beer and I can't seem to get this seemingly simple thing right.

I don't think it could survive that. As I said, I think it's not an infection. There are lots of causes to off flavors, and you're defaulting to "infection" when the only sure sign that it's infected is a pellicle.

I think it's your water. If it has chloramine, it won't matter how many salts and stuff that you add until you deal with the chloramine. I have no idea what Glacier whatever water is and if it has chloramine or not. Th bandaid taste and smell caused by chloramine is MUCH more pronounced when beer is carbonated than when it is flat.

 

[LovesIPA]

I don't think it could survive that. As I said, I think it's not an infection. There are lots of causes to off flavors, and you're defaulting to "infection" when the only sure sign that it's infected is a pellicle.

Well I'd say that's a pretty sure sign! Let's also not forget that I had a very experienced homebrewer come over and taste the beer. He said it was definitely an infection. The flavor profile of whatever keeps getting into the beer is very consistent, too.

I think it's your water. If it has chloramine, it won't matter how many salts and stuff that you add until you deal with the chloramine. I have no idea what Glacier whatever water is and if it has chloramine or not. Th bandaid taste and smell caused by chloramine is MUCH more pronounced when beer is carbonated than when it is flat.

It's reverse osmosis water. There is no chloramine or chlorine in it. The beer doesn't taste like bandaids at all.

Check on that thread I posted on mineral additions.

The reason that I don't think it's water profile is that not a single person has been able to provide one compelling reason why. Also, now the beer is coming out of the fermenter tasting infected. If it was the water - which I haven't changed at all - then why has the problem gone from tasting good out of the fermentor but bad in the keg to bad right out of the fermenter? Fermenters that have had beers in them that became infected, pellicle and all, during dry-hopping.

 

[The_Glue]

Subscribed. I am fighting something similar. My latest attempt was pasteurizing the beer after bottling (boiled priming sugar was added during bottling) and after cooldown i added yeast to the pasteurized bottles. In one week i will find out if it helps or not.
(btw in my case i get an astringent, earthy bitterness aftertaste in every brew)

 

[unionrdr]

Maybe the nasties from the previously infected beers are hanging out under the lid seal,around the airlock grommet,or in the spigot seal area? It has to be something like that. It can't just appear out of nowhere.

 

[LovesIPA]

Maybe the nasties from the previously infected beers are hanging out under the lid seal,around the airlock grommet,or in the spigot seal area? It has to be something like that. It can't just appear out of nowhere.

I would find it hard to believe. Have I mentioned how paranoid I've become?

After racking a beer to a keg:

- Clean bucket thoroughly with soap, warm water, and a soft sponge.
- Remove the grommet
- Using a soft-bristled brush, get all the way up into the lip of the lid and clean out nasties.

On brewday:

- soak grommet and 3-piece airlock in star-san.
- put about a quart of star-san into the fermenter.
- spray star-san all around top of bucket, into the lid groove, and around grommet hole
- install grommet, close lid, shake well
- remove lid, dump most of the contents
- Rack chilled wort into fermentor, aerating during racking
- pitch yeast, close lid, install airlock, fill airlock with a shot of cheap vodka

The buckets have a provision for a spigot, but none of them are drilled to accept one. All smooth plastic on the inside.

 

[unionrdr]

I also use a small brush with PBW to clean the lid seal & area. rinse & hit it with Starsan. Spigots get removed cleaned,brushed & rinsed. Installed wet with Starsan. The mounting hole as well. Clean & sanitize all racking tubes,etc.

 

[Hopper5000]

Man, this was so painful to read. It really sucks that this is happening to you and I am sorry to hear/read it. I am going to try to give some advice here that hasn't been covered, however, metallic taste can be a tricky thing to figure out where it's coming from.

Before I read that beer coming out of your fermenters was tasting bad I was going to suggest replacing everything that was plastic or rubber in your kegs because I wasn't seeing people recommending that. This being the poppets, o-rings, and maybe even the purge valve on the top (I know that's $$ so maybe even just getting new kegs would be worth it).

If things are getting infected in your fermenters now, then it's something in your process. I know this may be very basic but are you using a plastic bucket with the marks on the side to measure out your starsan? Sometimes these can be very off in volume measurements so you might not be diluting correctly.

Have you tried disassembling all the ball valves on your kettle and cleaning out the threads? That can potentially harbor some stuff in there so I would try doing that.

Do you use a pump post boil? There can for sure be stuff hiding in there.

I think it's good that you tossed all your plastic fermenters. I would try using a glass carboy and see if there is a problem there.

You might also want to try switching to silicon tubing for anything that touches the beer post boil and maybe a metal racking cain. I have started using silicone tubing as it can be boiled for about 10 or 15min which would eliminate anything hanging out in there. It is expensive but it might do the trick.

I am sorry you are so frustrated, I would be too.

 

[Hopper5000]

forgot to quote a post, see my next one....

 

[Hopper5000]

Subscribed. I am fighting something similar. My latest attempt was pasteurizing the beer after bottling (boiled priming sugar was added during bottling) and after cooldown i added yeast to the pasteurized bottles. In one week i will find out if it helps or not.
(btw in my case i get an astringent, earthy bitterness aftertaste in every brew)

Could be a wild yeast problem as that earthy not can be a result of that

 

[LovesIPA]

Man, this was so painful to read. It really sucks that this is happening to you and I am sorry to hear/read it. I am going to try to give some advice here that hasn't been covered, however, metallic taste can be a tricky thing to figure out where it's coming from.

I wouldn't really describe it as a metallic taste. That's what SWMBO called it but I think it's more of a sour flavor, and not in a good way at all.

Before I read that beer coming out of your fermenters was tasting bad I was going to suggest replacing everything that was plastic or rubber in your kegs because I wasn't seeing people recommending that. This being the poppets, o-rings, and maybe even the purge valve on the top (I know that's $$ so maybe even just getting new kegs would be worth it).

Every rubber part on every keg has been replaced at least once.

If things are getting infected in your fermenters now, then it's something in your process. I know this may be very basic but are you using a plastic bucket with the marks on the side to measure out your starsan? Sometimes these can be very off in volume measurements so you might not be diluting correctly.

Since I buy RO water in 5 gallon containers, I dump a full one into a homer bucket and add 30ml of star-san according to the package directions. If it's off, it's not off by much.

Have you tried disassembling all the ball valves on your kettle and cleaning out the threads? That can potentially harbor some stuff in there so I would try doing that.

I haven't done that. I don't have a 3-piece ball valve on the kettle I've been using for these batches. I have one on my new keggle, but I am having a hard time justifying its use right now because it just seems likely I'm going to make twice as much swill.

Wouldn't the heat from the boil kill anything living in the valve or threads?

Do you use a pump post boil? There can for sure be stuff hiding in there.

I don't, although I was planning on using one to whirlpool once I started using the keggle. I was going to start using it 15 minutes prior to flameout to sanitize it.

I think it's good that you tossed all your plastic fermenters. I would try using a glass carboy and see if there is a problem there.

I have one glass carboy that I currently have a batch of Apfelwein aging in. I was thinking it's probably time to keg that.

You might also want to try switching to silicon tubing for anything that touches the beer post boil and maybe a metal racking cain. I have started using silicone tubing as it can be boiled for about 10 or 15min which would eliminate anything hanging out in there. It is expensive but it might do the trick.

I am sorry you are so frustrated, I would be too.

Next time I'm at the LHBS I'll have to pick up some. I have a couple feet for the pump, but not the autosiphon.

 

[grathan]

Just some thoughts.

Deal with the infection first:

1.) Is it really an infection? IS stuff growing on top of the beer? Is it completely sour like vinegar?




Deal with the metallic taste:

1.)Your Swmbo is the only one who has tasted your beer? Why not share it with knowledgeable persons?

2.) why not eliminate water as the cause? ditch the Glacier machine for a single batch and use distilled water. Distilled water has 0 minerals in it. Get some lactic acid %88 at your LHBS. you already have gypsum. for a 5 gallon batch. 3 tsp gypsum to strike water + 3ml acid (eliminate tannins as your off-flavor). 3ml acid to sparge water. 3 additional tsp gypsum to boil.



Your comments here are odd:

Originally Posted by rayfound View Post
Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated.
I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.

if your using 1/20th of a tsp of calcium cholride in your batches you do not have a decent understanding of water chemistry.





If your willing, I will give you an IPA recipe to brew, your brew it exact. I will pay you to ship some to me. I will tell you what I think or even mail you some of my own.

 

[LovesIPA]

Just some thoughts.

Deal with the infection first:

1.) Is it really an infection? IS stuff growing on top of the beer? Is it completely sour like vinegar?

In some cases, yes. I have seen white pellicle forming on top of batches. I was storing and weighing grains in the same room as I was pitching the dry hops. I think that when I walked in with the dry hops, I would stir up dust and hair on the floor (I have a cat as well) which was covered with lacto bacteria from the grain dust. Beer no longer comes into the room where I store and weigh unless it's cold and carbonated.

Deal with the metallic taste:

1.)Your Swmbo is the only one who has tasted your beer? Why not share it with knowledgeable persons?

I have. They've either said "tastes fine" or "tastes infected". Granted I haven't had many experienced people come over. The best I could do was a guy in my girlfriend's grandson's little league that is a very advanced homebrewer and has been brewing for 10 years. I tried a tangerine sour that he made and it rivaled something you would taste from Russian River. I'm 90% sure he knows what he's talking about.

2.) why not eliminate water as the cause? ditch the Glacier machine for a single batch and use distilled water. Distilled water has 0 minerals in it. Get some lactic acid %88 at your LHBS. you already have gypsum. for a 5 gallon batch. 3 tsp gypsum to strike water + 3ml acid (eliminate tannins as your off-flavor). 3ml acid to sparge water. 3 additional tsp gypsum to boil.

I have some lactic acid. I could try this.

if your using 1/20th of a tsp of calcium cholride in your batches you do not have a decent understanding of water chemistry.

In the thread I started on my water profile, most people were saying that it looked reasonable to them. One person suggested the sulfate:chloride ratio was too high but then I'm not sure what you would do with hoppy beers that I thought were supposed to have a high sulfate level.

If your willing, I will give you an IPA recipe to brew, your brew it exact. I will pay you to ship some to me. I will tell you what I think or even mail you some of my own.

I'll try anything. I will brew it exactly according to your instruction, just send the recipe my way. I have a pretty good inventory of hops and grain here. I would buy fresh yeast from the LHBS of course.

 

[grathan]

Sorry, that post should've have read 0.3ml lactic acid and not 3ml on the 2 additions.



Here is the last IPA i brewed and I plan on brewing it again within a couple weeks. If you brew this as I do, it will be easy to compare. If you let me know your brew date, I will even try to align mine.


Recipe: Centennial ipa

Batch: 6.00 gal


---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
Boil: 7.05 gal
BT: 60 Mins


IBU: 85.8
OG: 1.066 SG
FG: 1.014 SG
Est ABV: 6.8 %
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 15.4 oz Total Hops: 7.50 oz oz.



---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------


11 lbs 3.2 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess)
1 lbs 8.0 oz Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess)
1 lbs 4.0 oz Munich II (Best Malz) (10.0 SRM)
8.5 oz Caramel Malt - 20L (Briess) 3.6 %
4.3 oz Special Roast (Briess) (50.0 SRM)
3.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L



Mash In 152.0 F 75 min 1.25 qt/lb
sparge

1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - First Wort Hop
0.50 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min




I think I got %83 mash efficiency last time to hit 1.066 OG.


The important things to remember here:

The distilled water. Who knows what is in Glacier water..
0.3ml acid to the strike water. add this and stir before mixing with grains. I use a syringe that comes with baby medicine to measure 0.3ml
2-3 tsp gypsum to strike water as well.



add 0.3ml lactic acid to your sparge water and mix before sparge.

add FWH to kettle while draining mash into kettle.
add 2-3 tsp gypsum to kettle.


Boil a good solid hour. Don't start the timer until it's going as good as it gets.

cool with a cover over the fermenter (tin foil will work if you have no lid). Let settle at least 15 minutes after cool before transfer to drop out cold break.

Rinse fermenter with star san mix just before filling and drain. You don't have to fill with 5 gallons, just enough to swish around and coat all surface and then drain.

How do you transfer cool wort to fermenter? This a VERY crucial step as far as infections go. I use a pump that boiling wort goes through to sanitize. If your using an auto-siphon make sure it has just soaked in star san. Run some through it just to be sure it is all covered.

No need to oxygenate because were using dry yeast.

ferment at about 66-67*F


add the dry hops as soon as krausen starts to fall. this should be day 2 or 3. Do not carry hops in on a open plate in your grain grinding room. You should be very careful when adding hops. If you pour from a bag of hops that works well, measurement is not precise. Most important thing is to not add airborne germs. In fact, wash your hands and remove jacket when adding dry hops.

let sit in the fermenter at least 10-14 days before rack.

Do not cold crash. It will cold crash in the keg/bottle.

 

[LovesIPA]

I was actually going to brew it today. However, I only have about 2 oz of Centennial left. I'm going to have to use another hop for the recipe.

I get about 90%-92% mash efficiency so I'm going to have to knock the grain bill down some to match the OG. I don't have any special roast. I have cara-aroma and Special B.

For kettle to fermenter transfer I have a stainless 1/2" NPT to hose barb plus a couple feet of silicone tubing. I did not know that aeration/oxygenation is not necessary with dry yeast. I will boil it for 15 mins to sanitize it.

I no longer dry hop or store beer where the grain is stored, weighed, or milled so that won't be an issue. The fermenters are stored in the kitchen/dining room area for now which is all hardwood. Heck I even sweep the floors and let the room settle before I open the fermenter.

Off to the store to buy distilled water, and off to the LHBS to buy dry yeast and a new fermenter.

Thank you for the help.

 

[LovesIPA]

Brewer's Friend yeast calculator says I need 23 grams of dry yeast (2 packages) to ferment 5.2 gallons of 1.066 wort. Do you want me to use one or two?

New grain bill:

8 lbs 1.2 oz 2-row
1 lb 1.3 oz Biscuit malt
14.4 oz Munich malt
6.1 oz Crystal 20
3.1 oz Special B
2.5 oz Crystal 40

This will give me 5.4 gallons of 1.066 wort in the kettle post-boil. I normally leave behind a little bit of wort and all the hop debris in the kettle but not much else so about 5.2 into the fermenter and a little less than that gives me enough to fill a keg with not much left over.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeast need o2 during the lag phase when they are multiplying to sufficient numbers to start visible fermentation. I always aerate regardless of the type of yeast used. Pouring the chilled wort through my fine mesh strainer & vigorously stiring in the top off water aerates enough for the average gravity beer,ime. I feel it's a good practice to get into dry yeast or liquid,since I rehydrate or use starters anyway.

 

[LovesIPA]

Mashing in now. Hit 152 right on the nose after adding some boiling water. BeerSmith just can't seem to get a handle on hitting my mash temp consistently.

Going to sub Mosaic for the hop as I have high hopes for this batch and loved the mosaic IPA that a brewery around here distributes (if you use that term lightly). BeerSmith projects my IBUs at 105. I don't mind a bitter IPA at all.

As for the cold crash, I do it to with dry-hopped beers to settle the hop debris more into the trub. The last time I dry-hopped with loose pellets the siphon picked up so much hop debris it would clog my poppet every time I managed to get about an ounce of beer out. It was a disaster.

I bought 10 gallons of distilled water and following the mineral dosage exactly, but that is SO much more gypsum that I have ever used in a batch. I haven't measured a teaspoon of gypsum yet, but I would estimate it's about 4-6 times as much. Maybe more.

 

[grathan]

1 package is fine, Safale US-05. Don't oxygenate. You really should stick with centennial imho. Hops add a ton of flavor and sometimes it isn't a good thing. You also should be careful of old hops. If you put oxygenated hops in your beer it could ruin it. The best thing to do is to open a fresh package of hops each time your brew a batch ( I'm assuming you have 2oz left from a 1# package that wasn't vacuum sealed ). If you do use old hops, use them earlier in the boil than the fresher hops.

Also don't open the ferementer for gravity readings. once for dry hop and once for rack. remember to dry hop while air-lock is still bubbling.


Lemmie know what hops you end up using and I will brew a similar batch for comparison.