I need help figuring out why I can’t brew anymore lol

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

woodmansee

Active Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
Location
Cincinnati
Im a fairly experienced brewer (~20 batches), but have hit a major snag in my brewing and need some community knowledge to figure out my problem.

The background: I moved to the Houston TX area a while back. All but two of my brews were done prior to moving down here. Previously was in south central Ohio. AG brewer, batch sparging.

The problem: The last two brews I have done here in Texas have been minor disasters. The long and short of it is that on both brews I have ended up with roughly half my intended final volume, but almost dead on my target OG! So somehow I am losing tons of water but ending up almost right where I intended to be on sugar content (so I presumably had half as much sugar as intended coming out of the mash). So why is this happening?? I never had this problem in Ohio, my mashes always worked as intended, and my volume was always around my intended volume.

The nuts and bolts: All grain brewer. Buy my supplies from one of the main shops in the city of houston. Generally do 1.5 q/lb mash thickness. Batch sparge at 170 with appropriate water to achieve preboil volume. I use tap water both in Texas and previously in Ohio. Both beers brewed in Texas were pretty standard beers (pale ale and American wheat beer) so nothing crazy going on there. Use brewers friend app for calculations etc. Use a propane burner for boiling so can achieve good boil in all temps. My mash tub is technically different now than what I used in Ohio, but still a cooler with wire hose in bottom. I have a probe there providing constant temp monitoring of the mash, which has held steady both brews.

Working theories: I am kind of at a loss. My best guess is that my water quality here in Texas is so shitty that my mash is crazy inefficient and my preboil gravity is way off. I haven’t measured that on my last two brews but plan to on my next. In conjunction with this, I believe I am boiling off at a much higher rate than I previously did in Ohio (perhaps due to elevation and temperature differences, but I honestly don’t know). I am also concerned that brewers friend is not accounting for grain absorption in its volume calculations for the mash which could also be affecting volume. But I would really love some input from other brewers on what may be going wrong here. It’s so frustrating!
 
Since you're doing almost everything the same except using different water, I'd look there first. If your water is highly alkaline then you may not be getting the pH down to where the enzymes work best.

I'd check your water utility website and see if they have any water reports there. An alternative is to buy some RO water and build that up to where you need it to be, and see if you improve things.
 
I agree that water seems to be where to look but I'd ask you to first compare your recipe designs to what you were doing in Ohio.

How much grain?
How much strike water?
How much sparge water?

Bad brewing water doesn't disappear in the mash tun. It seems impossible that you end end up with half your intended volume at the end of the boil if you started out with similar volumes in your recipes.

I could see a 10% variation in the amount of boil off between Ohio and Texas for some random reason like altitude but not 100%. Still you could compare your preboil and post boil volumes and volume targets in your recipes just to be sure.

Now if you were ending up hitting your intended post mash and post boil volumes and then saw significant loss of efficiency it would make sense to dive into water chemistry and quality of crush. But first I think you need to figure out where the water - poopity or not - actually went in your brewing process.

Maybe it was how much water you started with. Maybe the new mash tun has a huge deadspace that isn't draining.
 
It sounds like you have two issues going on here: sugar extraction efficiency and water volume calculation.

I’d try to tackle your volume issue first, then efficiency.

Accurately measure your water at all stages, strike, first runnings, sparge, total into kettle. A little lost water here and there adds up and is tough to accurately estimate, so take careful notes.

Also do a test boil to determine boil off rate.

I’d guess that your volume issue will be uncovered by doing this. Then you can begin figuring out your efficiency problems.
 
I'm struggling with this one a bit... You said in your OP that you batch sparge to achieve pre-boil volume but yet you're ending up with half of your desired ending volume.

I'm with @Kickass on this one. Do you have the details from one of these 2 brews where things went wrong? Step by step of volumes and what you did? If you do, we may be able to help you spot the issue.
 
Thanks guys I’m leaning towards a two-fold problem as well. For the record, one of the two brews I’ve done in Texas was a rebrew of a recipe I did in Ohio. Literally exact same recipe.
1) I am almost certain that he volume issue has to do with my boil rate and mash tun loss. The geometry of my new cooler is different, but still leaves less than .5gallon retain (I tested that). But it’s typically 90o outside here in Texas versus most of my Ohio brewing was done in cold weather. I am also going to do a test boil to determine my boil off rate because I am assuming that’s why I’m losing so much volume. But also, when I plug my numbers in for strike water volume, brewers friend literally feeds me grain weight x 1.5 to give me the quarts. I think it used to be better than that (when I used it in Ohio) but I don’t know.

Repeat recipe: Total fermentables=11.85 pounds. Volume of strike water 4.5 gallons. Volume of sparge water 3.0 gallons. Preboil volume came out about 7 gallons, a little lower. Post boil volume: 3.25 gallons. Target OG was almost spot on .

But I think the mash is sucking. I would assume the grains are at least fairly fresh, but can’t confirm that. They were bought from a popular home brew supply store in the city (DeFalcos). I milled them myself at the store and used them a few days later. Essentially the same thing I did in Ohio but obviously a different store. Which takes me to water chemistry which I have always tried to avoid.

My plan at this point is this:
1) Buy beersmith and use it instead of a free app
2) Use spring water or RO water for the next batch
3) I also want to set up a little mash with my tap water and test the pH of that mash
4) carefully measure volume of each step and take gravity readings of first runnings, pre boil, and post boil.

If everything goes splendidly on a batch with RO water then that would inform what’s happening. If not it’s back to the drawing board. I know southeast Texas water is garbage, insanely hard, and unpredictable because of its sourcing.

If i weren’t hitting my target gravity, this would be a lot easier to figure out, but I have twice now hit my target gravity but at the total wrong volume.
 
Looking at some other calculators and my brewing books:
I think the volume issue is primarily deriving from brewers friend not estimating grain absorption. The volume predicted to be absorbed by the grains by multiple calculators seem to align roughly with how short I keep coming up on volume!
 
Looking at some other calculators and my brewing books:
I think the volume issue is primarily deriving from brewers friend not estimating grain absorption. The volume predicted to be absorbed by the grains by multiple calculators seem to align roughly with how short I keep coming up on volume!

I'm wondering about something. Do you keep notes on your brews? Such as the recipe, amounts, amount of water, and so on?

Now, this is just me, and I recognize that there are lots of ways to skin a cat, but why wouldn't you have just used the same amounts of water as the last time? I personally don't use things like Brewer's Friend or Beersmith. I do use a water calculator when I have a new recipe, but other than that I'll make adjustments to the recipe based on experience and intuition.

But every time I start with 8.25 gallons of water, 7.25 of which are RO water. Then the only difference is the recipe. I'm doing a single-infusion which is why the ratio of water to grain appears high (typical grain bill has 12 pounds, maybe 13 or 14). For a 12# grani bill at 1.5 quarts to pound of grain I'd only have about 4.5 gallons. If i were mashing then sparging, I'd alter that somewhat but it's always a single infusion (recirculating RIMS system).

But I'm curious: do you have a standard process at all, i.e., standard parameters like I do?

EDITED: And maybe you just misread the amount of water. It's not like we never make mistakes in all this. I do here and there.
 
Looking at some other calculators and my brewing books:
I think the volume issue is primarily deriving from brewers friend not estimating grain absorption. The volume predicted to be absorbed by the grains by multiple calculators seem to align roughly with how short I keep coming up on volume!

Based on the numbers you have...

11.85# of grain X .15 gallons absorbed per lb of grain = 1.78 gallons of water absorbed by your mash
4.5 gallons strike water - 1.78 gallons lost to mash = 2.72 gallons of wort you can extract from mash
2.72 gallons of wort + 3.0 gallons of strike water = 5.72 gallons pre boil volume

I don't think you're hitting your pre-boil volume. I think you're way short of that, which is why it sounds like you have a crazy high boil off rate.

5.72 gallons pre boil - 3.25 gallons post boil = 2.47 gallons boil off

Still seems very high, but better that what the numbers were saying before.

My plan would be the following:
1. Perform a boil off test. Take 5 gallons of water and boil it like you would in your recipe. Take the final volume of water and measure it. Your boil off rate is going to be different based on how aggressive the boil is, your location, the size of the kettle you're boiling in, etc.
2. Document your volumes at multiple steps on the next brew. Not sure if your kettle has volume markings in it or not. If it does, you may want to check the accuracy of them. If not, you can create your own markings by etching a line in the side of the kettle or in the handle of a spoon.

The part I'm still missing is how you're hitting your target OG... Would you be willing to share the grain bill?

***EDIT*** Unless you're getting a crazy high efficiency but falling short on volumes. What efficiency is the recipe planning for?
 
I do not have a standard process in the sense of water volumes, etc. I almost always do different recipes, so grain weights and therefore mash volumes tend to vary batch to batch. The pre-boil volumes are always wild estimates, because my boil kettle has no sort of graduation. As I said, for the repeat recipe above, other calculators estimate roughly 2.3 gallons of mash retention between dead space and grain absorption. This 2.3 gallons is not accounted for ANYWHERE in the way Brewer's friend setup. So my pre-boil target volume for the repeat was 7.5 gallons and BF has me inputting a grand total of.... 7.5 gallons of water. Considering i came in not far off 2.3 gallons short of my target volume, this seems to totally explain the volume loss.

That grain absorption issue comes back to me being rusty. Now that I see it, I realize that I should have noticed that when inputting my recipes. I'm not using near enough water according to any other calculator. (I'm probably not using BF correctly).

So that most likely means my mash is not functioning well at all.
 
Okay, I can see a few potential issues here. I'm not thinking it's water quality, because as stated above, poor-quality brewing water doesn't just disappear.
  1. You are using the LHBS mill. That means that your crush could be MUCH different than at your previous LHBS in Ohio. This could cause wild differences in your brewhouse efficiency, and affect your OG greatly. I'd say this is a potentially MAJOR place to look at for the gravity, although not for the volumes.
  2. You say you batch sparge and offer preboil volumes, but I suspect that might be pre-batch total water volume, not boil kettle volume. So you're mashing and sparging with a constant volume of water, but perhaps not actually *measuring* your preboil volume in the boil kettle? If you're not measuring this, you don't know whether your volume losses are due to higher boil-off rate, or mash tun losses, or what.
I recommend using a very accurate gallon measurement and a metal ruler, and filling your boil kettle a gallon at a time and measuring how high up on your boil kettle each gallon measures. With a metal ruler you can then test post-sparge to understand your true preboil volume.

I'm guessing that due to a combination of worse crush and due to higher than expected mash tun / grain absorption losses, you aren't getting close to the same volume into your boil kettle preboil. Then, it's entirely possible that you're boiling off at a faster rate, but I'm guessing you're starting with much less volume too. The poor crush would also explain how you reach the same OG at a much lower volume.
 
I'm running 75% efficiency for my calculations, but came in ahead of that in my old process. Went back to default for new mash tun (was at 85-90% on my old setup!)

Repeat recipe was the Row 2 Hill 56 clone recipe on this site.
Grain Bill:
Belgian Pils - 7.25lb
Maris Otter - 3.8lb
C20 - 0.8lb

Always a 60 minute boil. But yeah the OG is throwing me off, which leads me to believe I'm not mashing well. The volume I think is coming down to grain absorption and a slightly higher boil off rate.
 
What was the target OG on this?

At 75% efficiency, using your actual volumes, Brewers Friend estimates your OG at 1.102. So we know efficiency is low.

Ultimately I think @bwarbiany is on the right track.
 
Last edited:
BF estimates OG of the above grain bill at 1060 (for 5.5 gallons into fermenter) which is in line with the recipe posted. I got 1057 but again, at totally the wrong value.

So I think I’m losing volume to grain absorption AND getting really low efficiency from my mash.
 
I use a measuring stick......

This. I use an 18” stainless steel ruler to measure all of my volumes. It ain’t hard.

Both of my kettles (HLT and BK) are the same diameter so both hold the same volume per inch, .62 gallons in this case. Desired volume/.62 tells me how many inches of liquid I need. Measured level in the kettle*.62 tells me how many gallons I have. It’s about as easy as having a sight glass with the extra, added attraction of being leakproof and unbreakable. :cool:
 
This. I use an 18” stainless steel ruler to measure all of my volumes. It ain’t hard.

Both of my kettles (HLT and BK) are the same diameter so both hold the same volume per inch, .62 gallons in this case. Desired volume/.62 tells me how many inches of liquid I need. Measured level in the kettle*.62 tells me how many gallons I have. It’s about as easy as having a sight glass with the extra, added attraction of being leakproof and unbreakable. :cool:

got a link? now i feel like i'm living in the stone age, i just have a notch on a wooden paddle.....95" a gallon for me though....
 
No cork and engraved markings.

20191022_133712.jpg
 
thanks for the idea! seems simple enough, and actually cheaper then my wooden stick! lol

What I use are some plastic chopsticks that I marked with a permanent marker. I have 3 for each of the 3 different kettles I use (two 5 gal and a 10 gal...my 10 gal kettle is fairly wide so they might not be long enough for a taller kettle).

On a related note...at some point I got around to weighing what 5 gals into a keg actually weighs...and realized that my "5.25 gal into the fermenter" was really only getting me around 4.75 gal into a keg.

Accurate volume and gravity readings really helped me to understand my process and to be able to hit my number consistently.
 
I moved to Texas and my efficiency went from the low 70's% to the low 50's%. I've tried RO water and mineral additions and it got me to the high 50's. Can't figure out WTF the problem is, other people here do just fine....
 
I moved to Texas and my efficiency went from the low 70's% to the low 50's%. I've tried RO water and mineral additions and it got me to the high 50's. Can't figure out WTF the problem is, other people here do just fine....

Best bet? It's your crush. Do you crush your own grain or use grain crushed at the LHBS?
 
Crush my own. From a good crush to flour, hasn't changed much. I'm at a loss to explain. I've been all grain brewing since the mid 1990's, never had a problem until I moved here. I now buy extra grains and do no-sparge to up my OG.
 
Crush my own. From a good crush to flour, hasn't changed much. I'm at a loss to explain. I've been all grain brewing since the mid 1990's, never had a problem until I moved here. I now buy extra grains and do no-sparge to up my OG.

Makes me wonder if something you're using to measure isn't working correctly....say, a thermometer is out of whack, volumes aren't accurate, or something like that.

I also do single-infusion no-sparge; I'm using mostly RO water (a gallon of tap water plus 7.25 gallons of RO water, for a total of 8.25. Here's a recipe I did two weeks ago: 6# 2-row, 6# Pils, .75# white wheat, .75# Munich. Total of 13.5#.

That's a fairly heavy grain bill, but I'm accounting for losses in the mash tun, BK, hoses, things like that. When I did BIAB I would typically use 7.25 gallons, so the extra gallon is essentially those losses. I'll get about 6 gallons into the fermenter.

I didn't calculate efficiency, but that produced a preboil gravity of 1.051. Post-boil (OG) was 1.055 (gentle boil rather than vigorous boil). FG was 1.007 (step mash from 134 up to 149).

The reason for the numbers is to allow a comparison to what you're doing. How do yours compare?
 
Thanks guys I’m leaning towards a two-fold problem as well. For the record, one of the two brews I’ve done in Texas was a rebrew of a recipe I did in Ohio. Literally exact same recipe.
1) I am almost certain that he volume issue has to do with my boil rate and mash tun loss. The geometry of my new cooler is different, but still leaves less than .5gallon retain (I tested that). But it’s typically 90o outside here in Texas versus most of my Ohio brewing was done in cold weather. I am also going to do a test boil to determine my boil off rate because I am assuming that’s why I’m losing so much volume. But also, when I plug my numbers in for strike water volume, brewers friend literally feeds me grain weight x 1.5 to give me the quarts. I think it used to be better than that (when I used it in Ohio) but I don’t know.

Repeat recipe: Total fermentables=11.85 pounds. Volume of strike water 4.5 gallons. Volume of sparge water 3.0 gallons. Preboil volume came out about 7 gallons, a little lower. Post boil volume: 3.25 gallons. Target OG was almost spot on .

But I think the mash is sucking. I would assume the grains are at least fairly fresh, but can’t confirm that. They were bought from a popular home brew supply store in the city (DeFalcos). I milled them myself at the store and used them a few days later. Essentially the same thing I did in Ohio but obviously a different store. Which takes me to water chemistry which I have always tried to avoid.

My plan at this point is this:
1) Buy beersmith and use it instead of a free app
2) Use spring water or RO water for the next batch
3) I also want to set up a little mash with my tap water and test the pH of that mash
4) carefully measure volume of each step and take gravity readings of first runnings, pre boil, and post boil.

If everything goes splendidly on a batch with RO water then that would inform what’s happening. If not it’s back to the drawing board. I know southeast Texas water is garbage, insanely hard, and unpredictable because of its sourcing.

If i weren’t hitting my target gravity, this would be a lot easier to figure out, but I have twice now hit my target gravity but at the total wrong volume.

If you are sparging to a set preboil volume and your OG is on target at the end of the boil then the problem is somewhere between your boil kettle and your fermenter since your volume and sugar content have to be correct at the start of your boil. (Unless you're measuring your volume wrong)

What is your preboil volume? And how are you measuring it?

Check that first. Measure your volumes and gravities at every step in your process and record them. That's the only way to know where your calculations are off

If you discover that your preboil volume is wrong THEN look at your mash tun dead space and grain absorption and just adjust your equipment profile to account for the losses. You'll also need to increase your base malt to account for the additional volume as well if that's the case.

If your preboil volume is wrong then your mash efficiency is probably fine. It sounds like your calculations are working perfectly to calculate OG with the volume of water you currently have, but you just don't have enough water.
 
Update: I did a test boil yesterday to determine my boil-off rate. ~2.3-2.4 gallons of boil-off in an hour.... so yeah that's part of the problem. Tentatively brewing again next weekend. My plan is to increase the pre-boil volume and try to get a really solid crush on the grains. Going to take gravity measurements at every stage to determine if I am hitting my targets. I'll follow up when I see what happens!
 
Your boil off is ridiculous. I boil as low as my propane burner will go and not sputter and it is really high. Still I only boil off 1 gallon per hour here in Florida on 90+ degree days.

Another thing that makes no sense is having half the volume after the boil and the correct OG. That is just not possible. Your OG should be WAY higher.

I suggest that you forget about numbers a calculator gives you. Except mash volume. Do your mash. Drain the first runnings and measure how much wort you collected. Then sparge with enough to get your preboil volume.

Going by your test - I would say you need to do that again. It is WAY high.

You will need a much more accurate knowledge of your boil off rate. I can't imagine the difference from Ohio to Texas would make that much difference unless 1) You only brewed in Ohio in sub freezing temperatures and now in Texas only in 100 + temperatures. 2) altitude change of over 10,000 feet.

I suspect big errors in volume measurements somewhere leading to low fermenter volume stated. Either too low on mash or sparge or both. Or you are leaving a ton of wort somewhere in the system. But all of these should make your OG way high.
 
Or perhaps you are using the same burner, valve opened to same spot, but in the move from Ohio to Texas some spider were knocked out of the propane pathway and now you're burning more than you used to, but I think you'd hear the difference in the jet engine sound, vs propane normal burner sound. I really am at a loss as to the boil off rate being so very, very high.
 
It blew my mind honestly. But it's accurate (Not down the the milliliter, but within ounces) as I used a graduated container in and out of the boil pot. I have some theories on why it seems so much higher now than before, but 24 months between the two locations definitely makes that tough. I doubt I was running the burner at full blast back in Ohio but have no clue how hard I was running it generally. So there is room to work there, but I need a baseline, and the 2.3 gallons is at full strength of the burner and at least I can use that for reference (and it's what I've done the last two brews). My kettle is wide, the burner is strong, so I'm shocked but I saw it with my own eyes, it boiled off a **** ton.

But based on the earlier discussion, I'm convinced my efficiency is terrible as well and it's essentially been dumb luck that I got close on the gravity. Only way to determine that is to solve the volume problem and assess the gravity then. My guess is my next brew is going to come in way low on OG, but I have to brew with the right amount of water and find out.
 
Capture.23.PNG

You only need a rolling boil. If you see the wort moving, with some bubbles on the top, you have enough. It is moving the wort and hops around. It is rolling. It is not required to have ea Sir Vulcanize of Vesuvius boil. Turn the burner down, do another test, there is no need to be creating more mash output just to boil it off. <credit image to one of many examples I found on YouTube, this one was here at 0:55s. >
 
Last edited:
It blew my mind honestly. But it's accurate (Not down the the milliliter, but within ounces) as I used a graduated container in and out of the boil pot. I have some theories on why it seems so much higher now than before, but 24 months between the two locations definitely makes that tough. I doubt I was running the burner at full blast back in Ohio but have no clue how hard I was running it generally. So there is room to work there, but I need a baseline, and the 2.3 gallons is at full strength of the burner and at least I can use that for reference (and it's what I've done the last two brews). My kettle is wide, the burner is strong, so I'm shocked but I saw it with my own eyes, it boiled off a poopy ton.

But based on the earlier discussion, I'm convinced my efficiency is terrible as well and it's essentially been dumb luck that I got close on the gravity. Only way to determine that is to solve the volume problem and assess the gravity then. My guess is my next brew is going to come in way low on OG, but I have to brew with the right amount of water and find out.

Change your equipment profile in BeerSmith to account for your water losses and then it will drop your predicted original gravity so you can adjust your recipe back to where it should be.

You didn't hit your OG by accident, you just hit the correct OG for the amount of wort predicted by BeerSmith and then lost more than you thought
 

Latest posts

Back
Top