Mine is about the same. Remember that the MLT -> BK runoff is gravity-fed and the pump outlet valve is partially closed to equalize flowrates.
If you think you may get stuck, use some rice hulls. The MLT braid works great for me though.
I love no sparge brewing...
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Mine is about the same. Remember that the MLT -> BK runoff is gravity-fed and the pump outlet valve is partially closed to equalize flowrates.
If you think you may get stuck, use some rice hulls. The MLT braid works great for me though.
I have the same braid in my MLT (retangular cooler). I've not yet experienced a stuck "sparge". Like Baron says, it's gravity fed from MLT to BK and the pump recirculates back to the MLT. You're not "pulling" from the MLT with the pump, just "pushing".
Sudz
Well-Known Member
Cool...
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
I'm going to be using the same setup essentially. I have the 50qt Igloo cube, gravity draining wort into direct fired BK, and pumping back to mash tun.
I had some false bottom material that I attemtped to use in my keggle MLT. I put it in the cooler mostly to keep my grain off the bottom. I'll be doing BIAB in the cooler with the false bottom.
I have yet to use it unfortuantely as the weather in KC, MO has been rather cold, or family obligations when it was warm enough. I did an experimental batch on the stove last weekend. I have yet to use my pump wifey bought me for x-mas though. I have did several trial runs with it to get comfrotable, but no beer as of yet.
I had some false bottom material that I attemtped to use in my keggle MLT. I put it in the cooler mostly to keep my grain off the bottom. I'll be doing BIAB in the cooler with the false bottom.
I have yet to use it unfortuantely as the weather in KC, MO has been rather cold, or family obligations when it was warm enough. I did an experimental batch on the stove last weekend. I have yet to use my pump wifey bought me for x-mas though. I have did several trial runs with it to get comfrotable, but no beer as of yet.
Agreed. This is why I'm converting to electric. Almost have all the parts together, then I just need to put it all together. Should be done right about the time for warm weather.
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
I'm defiantely leaning towards electric. I could brew on the counter top inside then.
Sudz
Well-Known Member
So let me see if I really understand this no sparge thing.
You place all your grain in your MLT. Heat your total water requirement in your BK (mash, sparge, and system losses water plus minerals, etc. to target your preboil pot volume).
Once strike temp is met, you dump or pump all the water into the MLT with the grain, stir well and check the temp for mash requirements (adj as req'd).
Then you immediately? start draining the MLT liquid into your BK, accumulate a few quarts? and begin pumping this back to the MLT. You monitor the temp going back to the MLT and adjust accordingly by adding heat as req'd to maintain mash temp.
You permit the circulation to continue until conversion is complete and simply permit everything to drain into the BK as the boiler begins the boil.
Have I got it?
You place all your grain in your MLT. Heat your total water requirement in your BK (mash, sparge, and system losses water plus minerals, etc. to target your preboil pot volume).
Once strike temp is met, you dump or pump all the water into the MLT with the grain, stir well and check the temp for mash requirements (adj as req'd).
Then you immediately? start draining the MLT liquid into your BK, accumulate a few quarts? and begin pumping this back to the MLT. You monitor the temp going back to the MLT and adjust accordingly by adding heat as req'd to maintain mash temp.
You permit the circulation to continue until conversion is complete and simply permit everything to drain into the BK as the boiler begins the boil.
Have I got it?
I empty my MLT before the sparge, then break the sparge up into two equal batches and even with high gravity beers I'm getting 72%ish
Yep, it's that simple. Jkarp doesn't start circulating until mash-out though, I think. I've kinda let my mash set 30-45 minutes, then recirculate for 30-45 minutes while I increase the temp for mash-out. I think it makes very good beer. And I say "phoof" to the efficiency decline, just add one or two extra lbs of grain and it's done.
I'm not sure I understand. Do you empty the 1st runnings into another container then pump fresh, heated water from your BK? If you are, then that is sparging. With no-sparge you are recirculating all of the boil volume, over and over and over.
It's only a matter of preference, but I pump my heated water over to my MLT first, then add grain and stir.
Yes, I don't do a mash out though per se... I 'turn the mash off' with the first batch sparge water attempting to get the grain bed up to 168... I vorlauf each time I empty of course until runnings are clear, with my setup that's about 1 qt until clear...
I add batch sparge water and run it through until I reach my boil volume which for me is about 8 gallons...
TBLbrewer
Well-Known Member
3.5 HR brewday today excluding clean up. No sparge is a God send.
30 minutes to heat strike water, 60 minute mash, sparge water heats during mash, 20 minute batch sparge, 30 minutes to bring to boil, 60 minute boil, 20 minutes to chill. That's 3.66 hours without clean-up with a sparge and 85% efficiency and my wort is chilled, pitched and in the fermentation cooler.
TBLbrewer
Well-Known Member
No mash out?
Once my mash hits 50 minutes I add 2-3 gallons of 185 degree water (depending on my grain bill), stir it and let it settle for 5 minutes then start my recirculation which covers my vorlauf (sp) and do that for 5 minutes. Then I transfer to my BK wide open which takes like 1 minute with a 5 gallon batch. When I add my sparge water it is usually at 180-185 now I then repeat the above.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to "no sparge" (personally I think you are sparging the whole time, but it needs a name
) but for me, it's not worth the effort to change my system as my time is very close.I used to try and shave my time and be more efficient with each batch trying to "beat my last time" to see how "efficiently" I could get it. Then my wife reminded me I do this for fun and relaxation "so what does it matter if it takes all day?" Man I sure love her, even after 23 years!!
Man I sure love her, even after 23 years!!
but I'm going on 25 years and I feel the same way. She is my assistant brewer since the last brew (she is always my bottle assistant), and now she is encouraging me to get better equipment... she pays my tickets when I speed! Rock on understanding SOWMBO's ! (SO=signification others - so as not to exclude anyone).:rockin:
bakins
Well-Known Member
Get rid of the chill and you'll be golden
Sudz
Well-Known Member
...Then I transfer to my BK wide open which takes like 1 minute with a 5 gallon batch.
What kind of manifold or strainer do you use to keep from getting stuck at this flow rate?
I use one of JayBirds false bottoms. I have had luck with a stainless braid in the past. That's what I used before switching to the FB. I use a March pump for transferring with 1/2" ball valves on it and the kettles.
Here's the link to the FB's
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f41/jaybirds-stainless-false-bottoms-146056/
Cyan
Well-Known Member
interesting thread!
subscribed!
subscribed!
I love this method. I just finished building a No Sparge Electric RIMS system. I am using a sanke keg with a false bottom and a 1/2" coupler welded on the bottom. I really like the bottom draining mashtun. I got 83% efficiency yesterday. No sparge seems to cut out quite a bit of time. I went form 7 to 4 hours with cleanup.
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
Beside the fact that its just easier over all (I don't like sparging, and I don't like messing with pre-heating mash tun) its nice having an easier process finished in much less time.
ReverseMonk
Well-Known Member
Sorry to dig up am old thread, but I am looking at no sparge and have one question (and this seems to be the consummate no-sparge thread).
How fast are folks running off your "no-sparge" sparge? Do you run off fast (batch style) or slow (fly style). I would think that a slowish run off would benefit efficiency. I'll be utilizing a two-keggle system (MLT and HLT/BK) with 15" false bottom. Just curious as I did not see any references to run off rate.
How fast are folks running off your "no-sparge" sparge? Do you run off fast (batch style) or slow (fly style). I would think that a slowish run off would benefit efficiency. I'll be utilizing a two-keggle system (MLT and HLT/BK) with 15" false bottom. Just curious as I did not see any references to run off rate.
I'm not sure I understand your question. No-sparge relies on a constant recirculation of the wort throughout the mash. There really is no sparge! Once the mash is done, the process is done. I can tell you that my recirculation is totally dependent on the mash-tun draining back into the BK. In other words, I can only pump at the rate that the MLT drains. You have to have a pump unless you are doing BIAB. If I've misunderstood your question, my apologies.
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
I don't understand it either unless he's talking about draining the MLT into the BK. When I used a cooler with this method I let it drain as fast as it could go. It shouldn't matter how fast you drain it.
I actually do BIAB 95% of the time. I'm still doing BIAB with no sparge and reciculating the whole time in a single vessel. So I never actually have to drain the MLT. I just pulled the grain out of the BK and start to ramp up for the boil.
I actually do BIAB 95% of the time. I'm still doing BIAB with no sparge and reciculating the whole time in a single vessel. So I never actually have to drain the MLT. I just pulled the grain out of the BK and start to ramp up for the boil.
ReverseMonk
Well-Known Member
Ok...Maybe I should have use the Lautering term. I understand no-sparge, I guess I just used the wrong term. After sparging, you have to run-off to the BK. How fast does everyone lauter from the MLT to the BK?
After recirculating ( I guess that can be thought of as a continuous sparge), I drain the MLT into the BK with the valve wide-open as I'm heating to boil. I don't think that after a 60-minute mash w/recirculation you are going to extract any more sugars with a slow run-off than you would with a fast run-off
No sparge would not benefit from a slow lautering unless fast lautering results in a stuck runoff. Run it off as fast as you can without getting things gummed up.
Nice system! So, can this be done safely with a single vessel- a stainless MLT with a false bottom? I have a 15 gallon stainless MLT, and this thread made me think- why not heat the water on the stove top, add grain, then keep the burner running on low? I could hook up the March pump to the MLT outlet and just continually recirc to the top of the tun (although I don't have a sparge arm, it would just be a tube running in there)? Wouldn't this prevent scorching and at the same time give better conversion?
My questions are:
1) is using a march pump on a no sparge large volume mash going to cause it to compact on the false bottom, thus making this not work?
2) is recirculating enough to get decent conversion efficiency (especially with no sparge arm to distribute the heated water evenly) as compared with just stirring?
Sounds like a great way to brew!
Klaus
My questions are:
1) is using a march pump on a no sparge large volume mash going to cause it to compact on the false bottom, thus making this not work?
2) is recirculating enough to get decent conversion efficiency (especially with no sparge arm to distribute the heated water evenly) as compared with just stirring?
Sounds like a great way to brew!
Klaus
I don't know about pumping out of the MLT, whatever vessel that happens to be. My MLT is gravity feed to BK, and I have experienced stuck mashes, depending on grain bill. It might work with a false bottom, but I would think that you would have to pump mighty slow.
A 60-min recirculating mash has always resulted in complete conversion for me. I've tested with iodine a couple of times, now I just take it for granted. I think the efficiency issues arise from not rinsing and equipment more than conversion issues.
jason.mundy
BIAB Purist
I like the no-sparge methoud because my mash temperatures have been more consistent. I haven't been using the pump to re-circ through the boil pot like the original poster. Instead, I've just been putting the entire volume of grain and strike water into my mash tun.
I believe my increased consistency in mash temperature is due to my strike water temperature is much closer to my mash temperature. When adding larger volumes of stike water, I can be a little sloppy on measuring my strike water volume.
For example, I added 6.87 gallons of 157F strike water to 12.4 lbs of grain for a mash temperature of 152F. That is only 5F temperature difference between strike and mash temp.
If I were to do a normal mash, I would have added 4.25 gallons at 166F. Being off by a quart or so is much more pronounced on the smaller volume/hotter strike water.
Another benefit of the no-sparge method is the the increased mass in the cooler helps the cooler maintain temperature over time. This benefit may be lost if you constantly recirculating through your boil pot.
I believe my increased consistency in mash temperature is due to my strike water temperature is much closer to my mash temperature. When adding larger volumes of stike water, I can be a little sloppy on measuring my strike water volume.
For example, I added 6.87 gallons of 157F strike water to 12.4 lbs of grain for a mash temperature of 152F. That is only 5F temperature difference between strike and mash temp.
If I were to do a normal mash, I would have added 4.25 gallons at 166F. Being off by a quart or so is much more pronounced on the smaller volume/hotter strike water.
Another benefit of the no-sparge method is the the increased mass in the cooler helps the cooler maintain temperature over time. This benefit may be lost if you constantly recirculating through your boil pot.
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
kshuler, I'm not sure I understand your question exactly, but I've tried a single vessel MLT / BK with a false bottom. I wasn't very happy with the results. I only tried it once and didn't really give it chance though. My flase bottom was higned and one side pulled up allowing grain to get below the FB. This scorched some grain pretty bad. It didn't ruin the beer though. It resulted in more work that I wanted to deal with regardless of the scorching.
The biggest problem I see with a single vessel and a false bottom is after lauter you have to remove the grain and clean the kettle before the boil. Not a big deal, but its work as far as far as I'm concerned.
I recently posted the link below. It is a single vessel I no-sparge mash in, and use the same vessel as boil kettle when the mash has finished. I don't have to transfer anything at the end of the mash. I'm not using a false bottom. I started by just putting a tube into the mash, and now I use a piece of CPVC with holes in it to distribute the water better during recirc.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/low-rent-aka-ghetto-single-vessel-brew-rig-187464/
I'm very much PRO-BIAB and my post probably gets that across. I don't like to deal with a lot of equipment and in my case I get a much more predictable brew using BIAB in a single vessel.
EDIT:
jason.mundy makes greats points about strike water volumes. I usually have my strike water 3 C (~5F) Higher and hit my mash temps everytime if doing single infusion. A small amount of strike water when using less will be much more noticable.
The biggest problem I see with a single vessel and a false bottom is after lauter you have to remove the grain and clean the kettle before the boil. Not a big deal, but its work as far as far as I'm concerned.
I recently posted the link below. It is a single vessel I no-sparge mash in, and use the same vessel as boil kettle when the mash has finished. I don't have to transfer anything at the end of the mash. I'm not using a false bottom. I started by just putting a tube into the mash, and now I use a piece of CPVC with holes in it to distribute the water better during recirc.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/low-rent-aka-ghetto-single-vessel-brew-rig-187464/
I'm very much PRO-BIAB and my post probably gets that across. I don't like to deal with a lot of equipment and in my case I get a much more predictable brew using BIAB in a single vessel.
EDIT:
jason.mundy makes greats points about strike water volumes. I usually have my strike water 3 C (~5F) Higher and hit my mash temps everytime if doing single infusion. A small amount of strike water when using less will be much more noticable.
Yup- right you are. I tried it just to see what would happen. Sure enough, after a short time the pump started to make a funny sound and nothing was coming out of it. I had to stir the grain on top of the false bottom to make a channel for wort to get through before it would pump again. Then I had to keep the pump outflow tube aimed right at the false bottom so the water pressure would stir up the grain and make sure it didn't get compacted. Even with this I had to periodically stir the entire mash to stop the compacted grain bed from blocking flow to the pump. Temperatures in different parts of the mash tun differed by up to 4 degrees until I stirred. Conversion seemed fine though. All that stirring pushed plenty of grain down beneath the false bottom, but even with the burner on at all times it didn't scorch, and the temperature was pretty easy to control. The wort was by no means clear.
Does unclear wort coming out of the mash tun and into the boil kettle portend badness? Will that lack of clarity affect the final product? To bigjoe- is there a way to clarify the wort if you use BIAB- doesn't seem like you could adequately vorlauf, so I would expect some very cloudy wort.
I will be brewing again friday. The above batch was my 1st attempt at all grain. Fortunately it is a belgian wit and will not be significantly hurt by a little extra cloudiness. Friday will be a Pale Ale- much more concerned about clarity. I will see how big my grain bags are, but if they will hold 14 lbs, then I will attempt BIAB. Still think I might want to sparge, though- not sure on no sparge yet. Big question- do you squeeze the bag for more efficiency in no sparge BIAB or not?
Klaus
I have recirculated my mash for the entire 60 minutes the last three brews. I haven't had any clogs or slow downs. I am using a 10 gallon Blichmann with their false bottom.
The last two batches I batch sparged doing the following:
Batch 1 - after the 60 minute mash recirculation, I add enough water to my mash to give myself 2 equal runnings. My grain bill was 12#'s and I mashed with 4.5 gallons of water or 1.5 quarts per pound of grain. I lost 1.5 gallons to grain absorption (0.125 x 12 pounds of grain). I wanted to end up with 8 gallons of runnings so I added one gallon of 185* water, stirred in well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to varlauf for 5 minutes, then transferred 4 gallons of wort to the BK. I then added 4 gallons 185* water to the MT, stirred well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to vorlauf for 5 minutes, then transferred the 4 gallons to the BK. According to BeerTools Pro my efficiency ended up at 91%.
Batch #2 - 11 pounds of grain recirculated the entire 60 minute mash. When mash complete, transferred 3 gallons of wort to BK. Added the remaining 5 gallons of 185* sparge water to MT, stirred well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to vorlauf for 5 minutes and then transferred to BK. Efficiency ended up at 83% according to BeerTools Pro.
I direct fired the burner for 1-2 minutes about every 10-13 minutes to keep the mash temp at 151-152.
I would like to try the no sparge method in my MT the same way. I will try it next brew and report back.
The last two batches I batch sparged doing the following:
Batch 1 - after the 60 minute mash recirculation, I add enough water to my mash to give myself 2 equal runnings. My grain bill was 12#'s and I mashed with 4.5 gallons of water or 1.5 quarts per pound of grain. I lost 1.5 gallons to grain absorption (0.125 x 12 pounds of grain). I wanted to end up with 8 gallons of runnings so I added one gallon of 185* water, stirred in well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to varlauf for 5 minutes, then transferred 4 gallons of wort to the BK. I then added 4 gallons 185* water to the MT, stirred well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to vorlauf for 5 minutes, then transferred the 4 gallons to the BK. According to BeerTools Pro my efficiency ended up at 91%.
Batch #2 - 11 pounds of grain recirculated the entire 60 minute mash. When mash complete, transferred 3 gallons of wort to BK. Added the remaining 5 gallons of 185* sparge water to MT, stirred well, let sit for 5 minutes, recirculated to vorlauf for 5 minutes and then transferred to BK. Efficiency ended up at 83% according to BeerTools Pro.
I direct fired the burner for 1-2 minutes about every 10-13 minutes to keep the mash temp at 151-152.
I would like to try the no sparge method in my MT the same way. I will try it next brew and report back.
I don't think it necessarily means bad, but IMO one should alway strive for the clearest wort you can get. That's the beauty of recirculating back to the mashtun and letting the wort filter back through the grainbed for 60 mins. Just have to match the pump flow in with the gravity flow out. Good luck. I'm interested to see how your sparging process works.
Hmmm.... maybe I should try it again. Perhaps my problem with the large load of wheat malt and flaked wheat in the mash? My next brew doesn't use any wheat at all-- perhaps I can try the same thing with the constant recirc via pump and not BIAB this time. The potential of a very clear wort is quite appealing to me. How do you distribute the wort that is recirculated back. I have no sparge arm, and the return to the MLT just shoots out like a hose. Won't that screw up the circulation so some areas are constantly recirculating and others are just sitting stagnant?
And do I understand correctly that your setup is MLT on a burner, direct firing occasionally, with the wort going through a pump straight back into the top without gravity draining or using a second vessel of any kind?
Reelale said:
My problem is that I don't have another vessel with ports in it that I can use as a grant for gravity collection and heating like in a simplified HERMS or RIMS system. I like the idea of gravity feeding as this is much more gentle on the grain bed, I guess, and there should be no issues with "channeling" and strange flow patterns that may occur with a pump sucking the water down. I suppose I could try to figure this out- just use a standard pot and hold the end of the pump to the bottom, so I never lose suction, and maybe put a plate on top of the grain bed so I can aim the water shooting out at it (so it doesn't disturb the grain bed).
My experiment DID work, sort of, though. I consider it a success that I got something that vaguely smelled beer like, didn't scorch, and got 78% efficiency, albeit with quite a bit more water than I should have used. But it was a cloudy mess and a half, and I had to boil the bejezus out of it to get it back to the post boil volume wanted (due to massive mash tun dead space).
Klaus
A large wheat proportion would certainly do it. It might work fine with a standard grist. 78% is really good for no-sparge. My return into the MLT is simply a silicone hose laid on top of the grain bed and directed into the corner of the cooler. I use a braid, and there is always enough water in there to ensure a good circulation.
bigjoe
Well-Known Member
I don't think cloudy wort is a bad thing either, but anecdotally my beers finish quicker, and are cleaner tasting overall.
If you have a ball valve on your kettle you can recirc without a pump. Its a little bit of work but it does help clarity IMO. I would capture a liter at a time and pur back into the top of the mash. I might do this for 5 minutes a few times throughout the mash.
I don't really have a sprage arm. I mention I just used a tube (silicone) that I stuck into the mash. But now I use a piece of CPVC that has hole like a sparge am would, but I don't sparge just recirc. I might need to take a pic of the arm and put it in my other post.
I throttle back the pump and had the tube under the surface of the wort coming in at an angle. If yours is shooting out like a hose I'd throttle back the pump and recirc slower.
I use a homer bucket lid turned upside down in my MT. Its big enough that it covers most f my pot/grain area.
I have a Loc-Line in my lid. I run the wort out the bottom, thru the pump, back to the top and it splashes down on top of the Homer lid. Works great.
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