I love no sparge brewing...

[NicotineRush]

I'd like to report that the Nut Brown Ale I brewed with this process is excellent. My first AG brew, and my best brew by far. I've since used my no-sparge set-up to brew an APA and an Oatmeal Stout, both of which are currently in primaries. I'll report on them when they are ready. I'm gonna continue using this system for awhile, it works for me. Higher gravity beers make take some tweaking I think.

Thanks! I'm in the process of acquiring the equipment for this setup. It just seems like it will suit my AG needs. Adding a 'RIMS for dummies' type heater should simplify the process even more.
Tom

 

[Reelale]

Thanks! I'm in the process of acquiring the equipment for this setup. It just seems like it will suit my AG needs. Adding a 'RIMS for dummies' type heater should simplify the process even more.
Tom

Yeah, I think I lost some heat via hoses on my first batch. I've since shortened them up and the system now holds heat through the recirculation remarkably well. The rims heater would certainly be a benefit. This system seems to work real well with no-chill, but I chill with an IC/Whirlpool return from the March pump and it suits me fine. Good luck with ur set-up, you'll like it.

 

[NicotineRush]

March Pump is on it's way. What size tubing do the input/outputs take? Like to get it ordered soon. I'll be chilling as well, as it's just to freakin hot here in the summertime.

 

[Reelale]

1/2" ID Silicone Tubing is what I use. I put Quick Disconnects on both input and outlet of my pump, after the valve on the outlet.

 

[The Pol]

You referring to my chart Pol? It takes all that into account. The reason efficiency declines is you can't keep adding water ad infinitum as boil-off rate is fixed and most people don't want to do 2-3 hour boils.

Higher gravity beers are going to have higher pre-boil specific gravity and therefore a larger % of sugar "lost" to absorption. The single biggest factor in no-sparge efficiency is that absorption number.

Nice chart...

All I am saying is that there is room for a brewer to #1 know thier no sparge eff. easily since it is a product of MLT losses and grain absorption. #2 you can choose to use more water, boil longer (60-120 minutes) to compensate for losses in eff. on larger grain bills.

Of course you cannot add more water to infinity, but you probably arent adding to your grain bill to infinity either. Your OG will have a window, so your grain bill will have a window, therefore if you make a boil window, you can get the same eff. across all batches, easy peasy

Not saying people should, or will, but they can.

This interests me... muahhahahahaha

 

[HarkinBanks]

Exactly Pol. Now that I know my constants such as boil off, MLT loss and grain absorption on my CB20, I can calculate my pre-boil gravity, post-boil gravity and efficiency spot on with any recipe. I hit them every time when I brew. Repeatability was my goal and that is exactly what I get with my no-sparge system.

 

[The Pol]

Exactly Pol. Now that I know my constants such as boil off, MLT loss and grain absorption on my CB20, I can calculate my pre-boil gravity, post-boil gravity and efficiency spot on with any recipe. I hit them every time when I brew. Repeatability was my goal and that is exactly what I get with my no-sparge system.

I just made up a calculator based on my target boil off, batch size and losses (MLT and absorption) for brews from 1.040 to 1.081 OG. Really interested in this!

 

[HarkinBanks]

I just made up a calculator based on my target boil off, batch size and losses (MLT and absorption) for brews from 1.040 to 1.081 OG. Really interested in this!

Excel has become my best friend. I have strike water, strike temp, pre-boil gravity and efficiency calculate automatically. All I need to enter is my pre-boil volume and lbs of grain. Wish I had that $20 back for Beersmith, excel is all I ever needed.

 

[bigjoe]

Saccharomyces this may be a stupid question but I have to ask.

Is the only place your taking the temp of your mash in the boil kettle? It looks that way from your pics as best I can tell and it looks like the same for jkarp.

I'm going to have virtually the same setup direct fired but I have a igloo cube for MLT. I have a thermometer setup on my BK with a compression fitting. I guess the BK and MLT temp should be very close if doing a continuous recirc right? I like the thermo on the BK when I chill. I plan on buying a k type with 2 inputs in near future. One for MLT one for BK. Maybe its just over kill?

 

[jkarp]

All I am saying is that there is room for a brewer to #1 know thier no sparge eff. easily since it is a product of MLT losses and grain absorption. #2 you can choose to use more water, boil longer (60-120 minutes) to compensate for losses in eff. on larger grain bills.

Absolutely! Being flexible with boil times, AND the fact that your prior beast got some really impressive boil-off rates means your efficiency window will widen dramatically.

The no-sparge numbers really are simple to crunch once you think about it for a few minutes. You're probably giving us too many clues here though.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Is the only place your taking the temp of your mash in the boil kettle? It looks that way from your pics as best I can tell and it looks like the same for jkarp.

The kettle the thermometer is mounted about 6" above the bottom so the thermometer is dry during recirc, so I use another thermometer probe in the MLT to measure the temps. Soon I will be switching over to a RIMS so the temp will be self-regulating during the recirc.

 

[jkarp]

Is the only place your taking the temp of your mash in the boil kettle? It looks that way from your pics as best I can tell and it looks like the same for jkarp.

When I first started with my system, I was poking thermometers all over the place. I soon realized that the PID did a damn fine job. If I set it at 170 for mashout, I knew for certain my MLT would never exceed 170, no matter how long I recirculated. Now, the only time I even use a thermometer is to check the strike water, and that's just because I'm obsessive about my mash temps.

 

[bigjoe]

I knew for certain my MLT would never exceed 170, no matter how long I recirculated.

That makes sense. If anything the wort will cool slightly if anything when returning to the MLT. Since I'm doing full volume mash I think I can spare the extra liquid in the BK to get a temp reading. I have a keggle with thermometer mounted fairly low. I'll find out on a test run exactly how much I need though. My guess is I'll be ok.

 

[Reelale]

I just made up a calculator based on my target boil off, batch size and losses (MLT and absorption) for brews from 1.040 to 1.081 OG. Really interested in this!

Hey Pol, would that spreadsheet be in your signature link? If not, would you mind sharing? I've got another members spreadsheet, but would like to see how they compare.

 

[Reelale]

Absolutely! Being flexible with boil times, AND the fact that your prior beast got some really impressive boil-off rates means your efficiency window will widen dramatically.

The no-sparge numbers really are simple to crunch once you think about it for a few minutes. You're probably giving us too many clues here though.

Simple for some maybe. But speaking as a noob, the more clues the better!
I've run 3 batches through my system so far, taken fairly good notes, and should be able to make some sense of it sometime, hopefully.

 

[Reelale]

Saccharomyces this may be a stupid question but I have to ask.

Is the only place your taking the temp of your mash in the boil kettle? It looks that way from your pics as best I can tell and it looks like the same for jkarp.

I'm not Saccharomyces, but I have a very similar set-up to yours. I have a 50 qt cooler MLT. I also have a thermometer in the BK. It's mounted low enough that I can monitor through recirculation. I also place a thermometer in the MLT. I just wanted to be sure of my strike water temperature. I've noticed virtually no difference in the 2, except for some minor heat loss from hoses due to cold brewing conditions and excessive hose length on the first batch. I'm with jkarp, even with a directed-fired system, my temps remain pretty constant during recirculation. Still a very "hands-on" process for me though, raising to mash-out temperatures without overshooting. That's the only real drawback to my direct-fired system. I guess one could just not do a mash-out.

 

[HarkinBanks]

I use a 10 gal SS insulated kettle as my MLT in my CB20 system. I drilled a 6" thermometer into the side to take temp readings of my mash and recirculation. I think it is very helpful and limits temp losses that occur when opening vessels to take temp readings.

 

[jkarp]

Simple for some maybe. But speaking as a noob, the more clues the better!
I've run 3 batches through my system so far, taken fairly good notes, and should be able to make some sense of it sometime, hopefully.

Reelale - just break it down into bits:

Say you had a 10lb grist. At an average of 36 points/pound, you've got 360 total gravity points to work with, assuming complete conversion.

For a 5 gal batch, and assuming you boil off 1 gal/hr and loose 0.1 gal/lb to absorption, your total water in the system should be 7 gal (5 + 1 for boil-off + 1 for absorption loss).

360 / 7 = 51 or a pre-boil gravity of 1.051

So, with no-sparge, 1 gal of 1.051 wort will be "lost" as it's locked up, absorbed in the grain. So subtract those locked up 51 points from the original 360, convert to a percentage and you've got the theoretical max efficiency.

(360 - 1 * 51) / 360 = 86%

and

(360 - 1 * 51) / 5 = 62 or a post-boil gravity of 1.062

From here you can play with the various numbers and see how the system reacts. If absorption were .2 gal/lb, max efficiency would be 75%. Do a 120 minute boil and max increases to 88%. A monster 20lb barleywine grist would be 75%.

 

[Reelale]

Ah! Thanks for the breakdown. We've discussed this before. I changed my username from Tundra05. Remember me? I appreciate all the info you've provided and I think I'm getting the hang of my system.

 

[HarkinBanks]

Jk's sample is a great way to get in the range. I found the calculation doesn't take into account malt yields and is higher than my real world experience, however. If I figure an 80% malt yield I can nail my pre-boil gravity and efficiency into the kettle numbers exactly when I brew. I won't go over all the math since it has already been done by Bakins and much better than I could here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximum-brew-bag-effeciency-137804/

The only thing you have to add to the formula in the link is your MLT deadloss since the BIAB method assumes no MLT deadloss.

 

[Reelale]

Jk's sample is a great way to get in the range. I found the calculation doesn't take into account malt yields and is higher than my real world experience, however. If I figure an 80% malt yield I can nail my pre-boil gravity and efficiency into the kettle numbers exactly when I brew. I won't go over all the math since it has already been done by Bakins and much better than I could here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximum-brew-bag-effeciency-137804/

The only thing you have to add to the formula in the link is your MLT deadloss since the BIAB method assumes no MLT deadloss.

How do you determine your malt yield? I'm sure it's variable with different malts. Do you find that 80% is a good estimate? I hadn't considered that when determining efficiency. But on the other hand, I don't really care about efficiency as long as I get good conversion. I accept the lower efficiency tradeoff for simple brewing and good beer, at least so far.

 

[HarkinBanks]

How do you determine your malt yield? I'm sure it's variable with different malts. Do you find that 80% is a good estimate? I hadn't considered that when determining efficiency. But on the other hand, I don't really care about efficiency as long as I get good conversion. I accept the lower efficiency tradeoff for simple brewing and good beer, at least so far.

In my experience if I use 80% malt yield I will hit my numbers exactly. From Palmer:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

I typically get 100% conversion efficiency with my barley crusher.

 

[Reelale]

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html

Ah. Thanks. I have that book, just overlooked that table I guess.

 

[NicotineRush]

10 gal. Boilermaker is on it's way, and the 10g Rubbermaid and March pump have arrived. (i only do 5g batches)

How is everyone doing with this 'No Sparge' method so far?

 

[Reelale]

So far, so good. Starting to get things dialed-in. I'm drinking/sharing my first batch, second batch was kegged yesterday, and third batch is still in primary. I like this system.

Boilermaker huh? Those things are sweeet! Good luck.

 

[NicotineRush]

Yea, over the years I've used all sorts of pots and pans for boiling, like everyone else has I'm sure. Finally decided to get the 'Real Deal'! I'm really looking forward to using this system.
Any major issues to be aware of?

 

[Reelale]

Any major issues to be aware of?

Nothing major that I can think of other than keeping hoses as short as possible. I think I lost some heat via hoses while recirculating initially. If you follow Saccharomyces process, it'll work fine. Jkarp is a weatlth of information as well.

 

[bigjoe]

I just got my fittings from Pro Flow Dymanics. I have everything I need at this point I just have to brew. Looking forward to brewing when it warms up a bit, but not looking forward to tweaking a new process.

 

[NicotineRush]

Too freaking cold here as well! Now, I like the building, tweaking part better than the actual doing. (almost!) Of course, then there's the, drinkin!
Freezing in Florida.

 

[muddpuppy]

I'm looking at using this no sparge method, I just bought a Little Giant 3-md-hc pump, would this pump be to big for this type of system? Is anyone using this pump for this type of application, where you try to match the flow from the pump to the draining of the MLT?

 

[jkarp]

It's a mag drive drive pump so you should be able to adjust from zero to full-flow with a ball valve. That's the beauty of mag drive.

 

[NicotineRush]

I'm looking at using this no sparge method, I just bought a Little Giant 3-md-hc pump, would this pump be to big for this type of system? Is anyone using this pump for this type of application, where you try to match the flow from the pump to the draining of the MLT?

Just got one of those myself. Haven't even opened the box yet! Looking forward to using in my no sparge setup. Got a new 10g Blichman as well! OH BOY!

 

[Saccharomyces]

No problems other than the fracking hose that leached chlorophenols into two batches I already posted about. I got my Blichmann 20 up and running, I will be building out my RIMS heater soon and will do a no sparge 10 gallon / partigyle 5 gallon batch then.

 

[jeffmeh]

I'm looking at using this no sparge method, I just bought a Little Giant 3-md-hc pump, would this pump be to big for this type of system? Is anyone using this pump for this type of application, where you try to match the flow from the pump to the draining of the MLT?

You can put a ball valve on the outlet side of the pump to adjust the flow, or to be able to more finely adjust the flow, a gate valve. Note though that you will be increasing the back pressure by cutting down the flow. I have used these pumps for aquarium applications, but never for hot wort. I do know that as the pressure increases its maximum temperature tolerance decreases, but at mash temperatures I suspect that you would be fine.

 

[bigjoe]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/march-pump-alternatives-156554/

The post above has some happy users of the little giant. I don't know they are no sparge brewing or not. A good discussion of March pumps and alternatives. I got a march pump from wifey for x-mas. I was looking at shopping around and comparing, but she got one off of Austin Homebrew they were a big help to her.

 

[TBLbrewer]

I read this thread today at work, and was so excited I ran to the hardware store to get the parts to convert to no sparge. Can't wait to put it to use this weekend.

 

[TBLbrewer]

No sparge rocks! Made for a short brew day. I hit 71 % efficiency. Worth the 4 points.

 

[Sudz]

Guys, I'm struggling trying to understand how you can flow what I perceive to be a fast rate of wort through a 10" sieve (pic page 1) without getting stuck.

What is the flow rate you are using with the recirculation?

 

[Saccharomyces]

What is the flow rate you are using with the recirculation?

As fast as I can runoff from the MLT with the valve full open, which is about 3 quarts per minute for a typical grainbill. My MLT has a copper manifold, there are pics of it in my user gallery if you poke around. The braid in the kettle is just to keep any loose hops etc. that make it beyond my hop bag from clogging the pump.

 

[Sudz]

As fast as I can runoff from the MLT with the valve full open, which is about 3 quarts per minute for a typical grainbill.

Thanks Saccharomyces. And this is without BIAB? (I will check out your copper manifold pics).