I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

CornyKegs 728
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Had only one American Pale ale I made taste grassy and it was from Old Cascade hops

Centennial is a great hop but try mixing it with: Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, El Dorodo, or other fruity/citrussy hops. I suggest moving most the hops to late in the boil/flameout and add more dry hops

Here is an example of my fav recipe (tastes like juice):
1oz @40min columbus
1oz@10min citra/mosaic
2.5oz@5min citra/mosaic
2.5oz@0min citra/mosaic
3oz dry hop citra/mosaic

You may need to adjust that if whirlpooling (I chill fast)
You could also try a Kveik yeast as they impart tropical flavors

IPA's go grassy when they are old and the hop flavors fade
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I’m still learning about whirlpool additions. I didn’t realize temperature was that important for flameout hops.
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Blazinlow86 said:
id say if your not paying much attention to those temps and timings ( as i was not) you should start there as it can make a HUGE differance.
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Basic Brewing Radio - November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps.
The PDF associated with the BBR episode has some experimental science around estimating IBUs.

With their "0 minute boil" approach for trying 'new' hops, I get two totally different beers when I
  1. use flame-out hops: add the hops at flame-out and let sit for 15 minutes
  2. use a hop steep: cool the wort (after the boil) to 180* F and hop steep at 180* F for 15 minutes.
(trying hop steeps at lower temperatures is on my experimental brewing list)
 
I scrolled through too fast to see most of the responses, but I think your aroma/flavor hop schedule might be part of the culprit. Hops at 30 minutes will impart more bitterness than flavor/aroma. Try adding your aroma/flavor hops in the last 15 minutes at 5 minute intervals, and take your bittering hops OUT once you start the flavor/aroma additions. And +1 to the hopstand at 175 or thereabouts; supposed to get more out of them at that temperature.

Another question; when you boil, is it vigorous or just meh? If just meh, your bittering hops may be taking longer to get the most out of them. Same with the flavor/aroma hops. The rest of your process looks solid.

As to water additions, I've read that 1-2 tsp of gypsum in the mash will help the hops come out more. Haven't tried it myself yet (because every time i go to the LHBS they're out of gypsum).
 
You know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm really believe its my flameout hops.
I've been dropping them in, and whirlpooling at flame out...temps are probably well above 180.
Im embarrassed to say that, but I just didn't know.
Glad I started this thread...I've got some things to work with on my next IPA.
Brewing a Noble kolsch right now.
There's no flameout hops on this one, so it'll be a good test.
I'll start working on my water and change my flameout hop additions next go round.
Thanks ya'll, this was a big help.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
You know, I've been thinking about it, and I'm really believe its my flameout hops.
I've been dropping them in, and whirlpooling at flame out...temps are probably well above 180.
Im embarrassed to say that, but I just didn't know.
Glad I started this thread...I've got some things to work with on my next IPA.
Brewing a Noble kolsch right now.
There's no flameout hops on this one, so it'll be a good test.
I'll start working on my water and change my flameout hop additions next go round.
Thanks ya'll, this was a big help.
Click to expand...
You should work on your water chemistry for all your beers going forward.
 
Haven't read this thread but I am curious on you making great NEIPAs and not IPAs. Usually it's dead opposite. So here's my 2 cents.

1) Use RO water. Get proper chemistry and ensure pH is 5.2.
2) Very little bittering hops. Do whirlpool BELOW 150F.
3) Rack wort keeping the "trub/hop ball" at the bottom of the kettel away from fermenter.
4) Add secondary hops at day2 fermentation.
5) Ferment out yeast 10days-12days Cold crash for 2 days.
6) No oxygen transfers to keg or smoother bottles on CO2 prior to bottling.

That's about it....Good Luck
 
My boil is good.
I've not been using hop bags, but I'm going to now.
Just got some w/ my new BIAB set up, so maybe that'll help too.
I can separate my hop additions in diff bags, so I guess I can now pull out the bittering hops, when I start the aroma hop additions.
That recipe was a clone for 2 Hearted...so that's why the hop schedule has aroma and bittering hop schedule the way it is.
I usually dont use aroma hops early in the boil like that.
 
I can attest that hop strainers/bags will hinder the flavor. Have you tried only cryo hops? Say 2-3oz in boil/WP and DH 2oz.
 
Water chemistry/pH made a VERY noticeable difference. It's possible you're just ultra sensitive to grassy flavors. Everything I read about your process looks good except water chemistry. Are you leaving the "ball" in the kettel?
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I guess I could fill up a growler, and take it to the LHBS, to see what they think...that's about all I've got left.
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Yeah, having someone taste it will be the best way to go for this. I have a bud who's one of those grandmaster whatever-whatever. He's helped me dial in a few things like mash pH.
 
Mash pH is one thing, but what really improved my IPAs was using gypsum for water adjustment (as opposed to lactic acid). Sulfate may be the key ingredient to get the best from your hops in a west coast IPA (even though I'm aware of fantastic west coast IPAs that are made without added sulfate - rule, exception, yadda, yadda).

I'm about to conduct a series of experiments myself to explore the effects of post-boil hopping. I suspect that there are many variables at play (temperature, contact time, alcohol contents, pH, ...) and it isn't just a simple "x days @ y °C". Note how 0 min boil hopping and post-fermentation hop tea can both have about the same temperature and contact time, but are often reported to have different effects.
 
I brewed a IPA in November and I didn't care for it at first. After about 4 weeks in the keg, it's come around and is quite good. Same thing with the Bells Two Hearted. I think that one needs time to condition.

I have a crappy IC that can take a while to cool down wort with ground water. I have to use a pond pump and ice water to get temps to 80 or below so I know what you mean as I'm in Louisiana. I brewed a NEIPA yesterday using Omega OYL091. I cooled my wort to 83 degrees and pitched the yeast starter. This yeast started in 3 hours and is quite nice not to really have to worry about fermentation temps. Whichever yeast you are using could play a part in enhancing the vegetative flavor. Old grains could also be a culprit.

I don't like Centennial as a DH. When I use it, mostly goes into a WP at 170 degrees for 20 min.

Where are you getting your hops from? How old are they and how do you store them? If you are getting them from your LHBS then they could be somewhat aged. I buy my hops from Yakima Valley or Farmhouse and never had an issue.
I also store my hops in a vac sealed bag and in the freezer so they never see any oxygen.

I've never used Cyro hops but I've heard they do not produce the vegetative flavor so that could help your situation but those hops would dramatically increase your brew cost. If you haven't purchased hops from one of the supplies I mentioned, give them a try and see if those hops help.

Water chemistry is important but don't think it would cause vegetative issues. I would go with Distilled water on your next brew and use a water chemistry calculator to build your profile. It's pretty easy. You really only need Calcium chloride, gypsum and Lactic acid for PH adjustment. Non iodized salt and some Epsom is what I use. Since I am a BIAB brewer, I add all my additions in my strike water.

I would start with your hops. You could brew your favorite IPA recipe using only cyro hops and see if that solves the problem. I would buy a pound of Centennial from Yakima or Farmhouse and see how those work.
 
Sort has been said before, and it could be other things, but I would guess a factor is the steep part of your hop schedule. Either lower the IBUs of that step a lot, or let the wort cool below 170F before steeping.

I was having a similar problem getting a nice citrus finish in another style of beer with more subtle hop profile, and limiting the IBUs of that step eliminated the problem for me.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Good stuff there.
You and Blazin have got me thinking about those flameout hop temps.
And it's an easy thing to change/pay attention to
Appreciate that.

Edit:
I think it's time to move forward with some improvements to my routine.
Water adjustments and late hop temperatures are 2 areas I've been lacking.
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At the very least try the simplified water chem outlined by @ajdelange in @Yooper 's post here. Note that in a recent post he has recommended halving the amounts from that old post.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Cryo hops worked out though...go figure
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Not much to figure out there. CryoHops have approximately 50% of vegetable inert matter removed compared to standard (i.e. type90) hops and that's obviously where your grassy taste is coming from.
Maybe you're extremely sensitive to those compounds and/or you're overdoing it with the dry hopping in amount and/or duration. I'd start by doing an IPA with only whirlpool additions first and then doing the same recipe with increasing amounts of dry hopping and see how far that gets you.
 
Sbe2 said:
Maybe you are just sensitive to whatever hop oils are isomerized(not sure if that’s the term) during the boil. Kinda like how some ppl can’t stand cilantro.

Also, You could drop/remove your DH addition after 24 hrs so you don’t over extract.

For me, I can really pick up on that band aid taste from yeast. Whether it be from chloramine or stress.
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Isomerization only applies to resins, hop oils just evaporate during boil and that's the reason why you don't get any grassy notes from boil additions. Totally agree that duration is a very critical factor in DH.
 
Might be bad grain,hops,incorrect water or too much trub in fermenter from kettle or dry hopping.
 
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One of the batches I brewed in 2018 came out very grassy tasting. I cut corners with it and didn't filter off the trub and hops while transferring it to the fermenter, and then I let it sit in the fermenter for more than a month after fermentation was complete and before I finally got around to bottling it (during which time I was lagering it atop the hops and trub at 34 degrees). The grassiness eventually dissipated after about four months in the bottles, and it actually became quite good post that juncture.
 
Just wanted to say that I feel your pain. I love IPAs but just never seem to get an IPA with a fresh, clean hop aroma like I get from some of my favorite commercial varieties (West Coast Style IPAs). I brewed a Dogfish Head 60 minute clone once that was decent, but many of my IPAs are blah. I brew lots of really good beers, and have a Pale Ale that I really like (though it is not dry hopped or that hoppy).

Making a decent IPA will be on my 2019 Brew Year's Resolution list. Like you, I don't do any water treatment. I suspect that is part of my problem. The other parts might be hop combinations and figuring out the best flame-out/whirlpool/dry hop (in fermenter? in keg?) schedule.
 
Not to say that anybody is incorrect in their suggestions of salts/ph etc but you got to get the basics sorted first imho before those become the weakest link. As op noted he hasn't been paying attention to his chilling times or hops stand temps etc. That pretty much guarantees that in a best best case your always gonna come out at least slightly higher than your desired ibu and in the case of heavily late hopped brews extremely higher. And they won't have any fruity flavor as it's all been boiled off. You will just get a bland/bitter grassy taste. Cheers
 
Gravelscratcher said:
My temps did get lower than normal on this last one, a few times...just below 60. Like 56/57 to 60 or so, for the last week...which was when I DH’d. I DH’s the last 3 days in the primary (I keep the chest freezer in the garage). I didn’t get a heating pad yet, and I didn’t expect temps to get down early this season (I’m an hour North of Houston). What we call cold, is different than most of y’all.

I did just fill up a glass, and cleansed the pallet to take an honest taster.
It’s not as dramatic as some of the others, and I guess this one has the potential to come around. It suddenly doesn’t seem 1/2 bad.
I’m tasting some fruity backbone, and some of that veggie finish has faded. It’s not nearly as grassy as it was, when it was fresh in the keg.
Better than yesterday actually.
I’m finishing up on week 3 in the keg...hopefully I over reacted.
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North of Houston? How far are you from Humble? Go see Preston at The Grain Cellar and take a sample. He's got an excellent palate and brews good beer. Better yet, join our home brew club, Rogue Brewers.
 
I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.
 
TooManyTacos said:
I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.
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This makes good sense. Do you add something like marbles to the hop sack(s) to assure that they sink?
 
I don't know why I never thought of that, albeit I have been focusing on brewing a better lager recently. They still float with the sack, but only a small amount (maybe 1% of what used to) breaches the surface. I'll try to add some type of glass to help weigh it down and see if it makes it any better next IPA I brew.
 
TooManyTacos said:
I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.
Click to expand...
Interesting I've never heard of doing it that way. I've always just added them loose and never noticed that grassyness. Are you using a bucket? Hows the o2 getting into your fermentor? I generally purge with CO2 after opening the fermentor and generally only add the dryhops prior to the end of fermentation. Cheers
 
TxBigHops said:
North of Houston? How far are you from Humble? Go see Preston at The Grain Cellar and take a sample. He's got an excellent palate and brews good beer. Better yet, join our home brew club, Rogue Brewers.
Click to expand...
I've picked up some supplies and ingredients from him in the past. You are correct...he's a really good guy. I would probably do all my business w/ him, if it was closer/more convenient.​
I live in Montgomery...Lake Conroe area. Humble is a pretty good hike, but I stop by over there whenever I'm in the area and have time.
I mostly get my stuff online or from the LHBS in The Woodlands (Ray). He's a character.
I actually thought of Preston, and taking him a sample. I think I'm getting an idea on the potential cause now, and some steps to prevent it from happening next time.
I also think that it is starting to fade some...which is a good sign. I think I'll hold on to it for a couple of weeks, and see if it improves. It's just kind of "Meh" at the moment.

Edit:
I actually would love to join y'all too. I just think I'm too far to really be very active.
 
brew703 said:
Water chemistry is important but don't think it would cause vegetative issues. I would go with Distilled water on your next brew and use a water chemistry calculator to build your profile. It's pretty easy. You really only need Calcium chloride, gypsum and Lactic acid for PH adjustment. Non iodized salt and some Epsom is what I use. Since I am a BIAB brewer, I add all my additions in my strike water.
Click to expand...

This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.
Click to expand...
Easy you don't need to learn anything really. The software you're using probably has it built in. In beersmith you just click the choose Target profile and pick what you want. it'll tell you how much salts to add and also predict how much acid to add
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I've picked up some supplies and ingredients from him in the past. You are correct...he's a really good guy. I would probably do all my business w/ him, if it was closer/more convenient.​
I live in Montgomery...Lake Conroe area. Humble is a pretty good hike, but I stop by over there whenever I'm in the area and have time.
I mostly get my stuff online or from the LHBS in The Woodlands (Ray). He's a character.
I actually thought of Preston, and taking him a sample. I think I'm getting an idea on the potential cause now, and some steps to prevent it from happening next time.
I also think that it is starting to fade some...which is a good sign. I think I'll hold on to it for a couple of weeks, and see if it improves. It's just kind of "Meh" at the moment.

Edit:
I actually would love to join y'all too. I just think I'm too far to really be very active.
Click to expand...
We'd love to have you, even if you can't make it every month. We've got a great group of homebrewers.
 
Blazinlow86 said:
Easy you don't need to learn anything really. The software you're using probably has it built in. In beersmith you just click the choose Target profile and pick what you want. it'll tell you how much salts to add and also predict how much acid to add
Click to expand...
Ok, so here's what I get from BS3.
How does that translate to:
Gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride?
Screenshot_20181230-200834.jpeg
Screenshot_20181230-200740.jpeg
Screenshot_20181230-200628.jpeg
 
Ahh sorry I've never used the mobile version. On the desktop version it adds all the total weight of the salts on the ingredients page. Maybe a mobile user can chime in
 
I once had BS2 on my old laptop. I was on Craigslist, and clicked a link that fried that computer and lost it.
I just never got around to uploading the new version on my current PC, since my phone still has the app.
I'll be happy to buy it again, if it's real help w/ the water...otherwise the mobile app has done what I need.
Can you/someone post a screen shot example?
 
Gravelscratcher said:
This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.
Click to expand...
Bru N Water really isn't that involved. If I can do it anyone can. The download is free. Brewers Friend and BS3 also have water profiles but I've never used them. I strictly use Bru N Water.
As an example for a Bells Two Hearted using 8.6 gal water (5.75 gal into fermenter)
Yellow Bitter profile/ 100% Distilled
6 gram Gypsum
3 gram Calcium Chloride
3mL Lactic gets you to 5.3 pH
These additions will get you to:
Ca>>68.2 / SO4 103.2/ CI 44.6
 
So I know it’s rehopping (HA) what’s already been said here, but I think its either your hops source/freshness or your water profile. Now I think I read that you’re in SoCal so I highly doubt your source of hops is stale unless you’re buying from bulk container at an LHBS. We had to convince one of our local shops that they needed to stop this practice because most of their hops were giving an oxidized or even cheesy character to beer. You can’t keep hops in a wonton soup container for any amount of time and expect to have freshness.

Now setting hop freshness aside. You mention you make great stouts. Well the water profile for a great stout and a great IPA are not all that similar. Water higher in alkalinity and low in sulfates makes a good stout, but I’ve had less than stellar IPAs when I didn’t do water chemistry.

I would honestly say I didn’t have any good IPA until I started modifying my water. Primarily focusing on removing alkalinity to reduce harshness/astringency, increasing sulfates to bring out a cleaner/sharper hop flavor, and using chloride to increase the perception of body without ending up with a higher FG and a “sticky” thick beer.

One note on sulfates, several of the brewing water calculation sheets I’ve used including Bru’n Water have the sulfates for Burton Upon Trent water (traditional IPA water profile) at something on the order of 600 - 800 ppm. Unless you’re trying to make an ExLax IPA I don’t recommend sulfates above 250-300ppm. Above those levels you are making a potent laxative.
 

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