I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

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I've been buying (2) 5 gallon jugs of purified drinking water... forgot what brand. Not sure if it's RO, but it is not distilled.

Dry hop at proper fermentation temperatures. Above 50 for sure.
Temperatures range from 56 to 65 ish.
I use a chest freezer with an ink bird to hold temperatures
I just added a heating pad, for the occasions that it may get too cold.

I keep the ink bird probe taped under an insulation pad, on the primary, & I dry hop in the primary as well. That's about as close as I can get to the temperature inside the primary.

I cold crashed this one (In the keg with a carb blanket), and I am going into week 4 of cold storage...just hoping it'll improve.

It is a clear and beautiful beer, with a nice head, it just tastes like poo. (Last I checked anyway).
 
Played around w/ Bru'n Water last night.
Took about 15 minutes or so to figure out how to use it.
That's a pretty nice tool.
Wish I wouldn't have avoided water chemistry for so long...its not that difficult, once you have the tools and ingredients you need,
Was able to dial in distilled water, to just under 5.3, for an IPA (on the spreadsheet).
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Played around w/ Bru'n Water last night.
Took about 15 minutes or so to figure out how to use it.
That's a pretty nice tool.
Wish I wouldn't have avoided water chemistry for so long...its not that difficult, once you have the tools and ingredients you need,
Was able to dial in distilled water, to just under 5.3, for an IPA (on the spreadsheet).
Click to expand...
Target 5.4 for IPAs with a sulfate concentration of 200ppm and 50ppm for chloride.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I've been buying (2) 5 gallon jugs of purified drinking water... forgot what brand. Not sure if it's RO, but it is not distilled.
Click to expand...
Don't assume what it is or isn't. And how it may fluctuate over the seasons.
It would be advantageous to know the composition of that "purified drinking water." How else could you input those numbers into Bru'n Water?

Even water from an RO machine can fluctuate, due to the quality of the water source and maintenance of the machine. A (fairly cheap) TDS meter can shine some light on total mineral content. For RO water, the closer TDS is to 0 the "purer" it is. Not that anyone can taste the difference between 0 and 10.
 
IslandLizard said:
Don't assume what it is or isn't. And how it may fluctuate over the seasons.
It would be advantageous to know the composition of that "purified drinking water." How else could you input those numbers into Bru'n Water?

Even water from an RO machine can fluctuate, due to the quality of the water source and maintenance of the machine. A (fairly cheap) TDS meter can shine some light on total mineral content. For RO water, the closer TDS is to 0 the "purer" it is. Not that anyone can taste the difference between 0 and 10.
Click to expand...
I plan to use distilled, and modify to the respective style, for future brews.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I plan to use distilled, and modify to the respective style, for future brews.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the water you're using now isn't suitable, but you should find out what it contains. The company selling it to you should know.

Some "drinking water" is filtered local tap water, some is pure RO, while others may contain added "salts" (minerals) for better taste.

RO tends to be cheaper (~$.20-.39) than distilled water (~$.60), you can fill into your own containers from a machine in your supermarket, Walmart, etc.
There should be a last service report and TDS reading on it.

In many cases regular tap water works fine, no need for the extra water expense. You can call your water company for the mineral content we brewers are interested in, and find out about its source(s) and seasonal fluctuations.

And definitely treat municipal water with Campden to remove Chlorine or Chloramines, they all contain one or the other.

Not sure if this was asked and answered before: Where do you get your hops? How do you store them? Leaf or pellets?
 
Had my first grassy batch myself yesterday. Was looking for big dank and pine flavors but got unpleasant grassyness instead. Hops were apollo, Columbus and weimea, all focused on late additions. 20 min was the longest boil time the hop saw. Rest was thrown in at 5 min and flame out. No dry hop... This Sucks!
 
Hops: from online HBS or LHBS.
Store in fridge. I'll put them in the freezer, for long term storage, if necessary.
 
Miraculix said:
Had my first grassy batch myself yesterday. Was looking for big dank and pine flavors but got unpleasant grassyness instead. Hops were apollo, Columbus and weimea, all focused on late additions. 20 min was the longest boil time the hop saw. Rest was thrown in at 5 min and flame out. No dry hop... This Sucks!
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that...I know how it feels (obviously).
Makes me feel a little better, knowing I'm not the only one.
 
Miraculix said:
Had my first grassy batch myself yesterday. Was looking for big dank and pine flavors but got unpleasant grassyness instead. Hops were apollo, Columbus and weimea, all focused on late additions. 20 min was the longest boil time the hop saw. Rest was thrown in at 5 min and flame out. No dry hop... This Sucks!
Click to expand...
Just curious...so you think it's your water, or something else?
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Just curious...so you think it's your water, or something else?
Click to expand...
It is definitely not the water. I treat my water and the water worked for this type of beer many many times before.

I experimented with a new yeast, voss kveik, pitched it at really high temp with very low pitch rate, which should actually be the real deal according to larsblogg, but I got pronounced tartness and the described flavour.

There was a thin layer of yeast left on the surface which could also have been a pelicle, but it looked more like remaining kraeusen which didn't want to drop.

So my bet is either it is the yeast or an infection, or maybe the hop varieties and or the schedule.
 
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I have no advice for OP, but wanted you to know you aren't alone. I feel each new batch of IPa or APA I make just will not improve. I made a Red Rye IPA and Wookey Jack clone all the way back in my first year of brewing (over ten years ago now). But I have not made a successfully good IPA for years. They all have this grassy, floral, yeasty tart bite that is just unpleasant and all I can say is that they all just taste...homebrew-y.

I've done late additions only, hot and cold whirlpools, single and double dry hopping, all ranges of hop varieties, attempted to perfect water chemistry, etc, etc etc. And each one comes our sub-par. I'm going to just keep working on it, but it is really disheartening. So if you do find a solution be sure to post.
 
troglodytes said:
I have no advice for OP, but wanted you to know you aren't alone. I feel each new batch of IPa or APA I make just will not improve. I made a Red Rye IPA and Wookey Jack clone all the way back in my first year of brewing (over ten years ago now). But I have not made a successfully good IPA for years. They all have this grassy, floral, yeasty tart bite that is just unpleasant and all I can say is that they all just taste...homebrew-y.

I've done late additions only, hot and cold whirlpools, single and double dry hopping, all ranges of hop varieties, attempted to perfect water chemistry, etc, etc etc. And each one comes our sub-par. I'm going to just keep working on it, but it is really disheartening. So if you do find a solution be sure to post.
Click to expand...

Have you tried completely 100% exchanged equipment? Sounds like a tough infection to me.
 
Miraculix said:
Have you tried completely 100% exchanged equipment? Sounds like a tough infection to me.
Click to expand...
I'm honestly thinking about it, but don't have the money to switch out everything. My cold side equipment is all fairly new. My hot side side is definitely old but clean, and my assumption is that anything picked up in the mash tun would be killed in the boil.
 
troglodytes said:
I'm honestly thinking about it, but don't have the money to switch out everything. My cold side equipment is all fairly new. My hot side side is definitely old but clean, and my assumption is that anything picked up in the mash tun would be killed in the boil.
Click to expand...
Just buy a new bucket and dump everything out of the boil kettle directly into it. Don't use a siphon or tap or whatever, no dry hop, instead dry yeast directly from the pack without rehydration.

If this beer comes out fine, then you found it!
 
Miraculix said:
Just buy a new bucket and dump everything out of the boil kettle directly into it. Don't use a siphon or tap or whatever, no dry hop, instead dry yeast directly from the pack without rehydration.

If this beer comes out fine, then you found it!
Click to expand...
That's a good idea. I can't believe I never thought of this. Maybe a part of me doesn't want to find out I need to replace my equipment.
 
couchsending said:
Do you guys think that any large brewer can cool 30-60 bbls of beer from 212-170 in a respectable time? No.
Click to expand...

Just jumping in to say, um, yeah they can. They run the boiling wort through a ginormous plate chiller, warming the next batch's mash water.

Just sayin.
 
I used to do no-chill beers, just letting it cool by itself over night. In Australia, breweries do the same. No problems with grassy flavour because of this.
 
Miraculix said:
I used to do no-chill beers, just letting it cool by itself over night. In Australia, breweries do the same. No problems with grassy flavour because of this.
Click to expand...
I do this all the time... I never wort chill. I just let the wort cool in the kettle, transfer to bucket, then put bucket in chest freezer.
 
Miraculix said:
I used to do no-chill beers, just letting it cool by itself over night. In Australia, breweries do the same. No problems with grassy flavour because of this.
Click to expand...
To clarify once again. The suggestions made about chilling times and temps didn't have anything to do with the grassyness. It was in reference to over bitterness without that hop flavor that turns out op wasn't concerned about. Also to clarify once again im sure the breweries that are doing no chill methods also compensate for that method. They wouldn't just use the same recipe as someone not doing no chill and expect the same end result. The op said he payed no attention to how long his wort stayed at near boiling and also does not compensate for that in his software. Therefore it was suggested that he will always come out on the higher end bitterness wise then what beersmith is predicting as by default it assumes you chill in 0 mins and that he can easily correct this by entering the amount of time it takes his wort to chill into the box in his software thats there for this specific reason. Basically just a reminder that boiling 1g of hops for 60 min will extract alot more bitterness than 15 mins. In all honesty im baffled that so many people seem to disagree with that advise. Cheers
 
Last edited:
For clarification:
I typically whirlpool for 15 -30 minutes or so while it naturally cools
Times are based on whatever respective recipe I'm brewing

Then I move it into a swamp cooler filled with ice and a wort chiller to cool rapidly.

These times were based on the recipe I used, and I did pay attention to how long be steeping/Whirlpool hops were in the kettle.

All of my post boil Additions were timed, and cooled quickly, but I did not pay attention to the temperature when I dropped my hops in.

Edit:
Overly bitter hasn't been the issue so much as grassiness.

My IPA made with cryo hops was stellar, and I dry hopped it no differently then the grassy versions.
 
balrog said:
Just jumping in to say, um, yeah they can. They run the boiling wort through a ginormous plate chiller, warming the next batch's mash water.

Just sayin.
Click to expand...

Not before whirlpooling... if there are hops in the kettle then you can’t do that without risking clogging the heat X. I’m sure some do but most don’t usually try.

Every system is different but on your standard run of the mill two vessel system it’s not easy.

I believe the easiest way to do it is brew high gravity and dilute with cold aster to target gravity and temp.

Obviously if you add zero hops hot side or use Co2 extract it can be done easier without worrying about clogging the heat exchanger.
 
Last edited:
Below is a snippet of info from an all-grain IPA recipe in G.Strong's "Modern Homebrew Recipes" book. All of the recipes in this book include the water treatment (when using RO water), and it helped take my brewing to a new level.

RO Water treated with 1/4 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid per 5 gallons ; 1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) and 1/2 tsp Gypsum/Calcium Sulfate(CaSO4) in mash.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
For clarification:
I typically whirlpool for 15 -30 minutes or so while it naturally cools
Times are based on whatever respective recipe I'm brewing

Then I move it into a swamp cooler filled with ice and a wort chiller to cool rapidly.

These times were based on the recipe I used, and I did pay attention to how long be steeping/Whirlpool hops were in the kettle.

All of my post boil Additions were timed, and cooled quickly, but I did not pay attention to the temperature when I dropped my hops in.

Edit:
Overly bitter hasn't been the issue so much as grassiness.

My IPA made with cryo hops was stellar, and I dry hopped it no differently then the grassy versions.
Click to expand...


My points not getting across and thats probably becuase of the way im wording it so let me try one last time. please disregard anything i have prev posted in this thread and treat this as my first reply

i noticed when reading your posts that your getting grassy,bitter beers thats hops dont pop. i also noticed that your using beersmith software and after reading your process and post# 28 i noticed a small mistake your making that can cause your beer to be bitter with no hop pop. i have also made the same mistake and had bitter beers thats hops didnt pop similar to what your describing. not sure it will help your grassyness (one persons grassyness can be anothers bland) but its free and only takes a moment so i recommend correcting it regardless and figured id throw it out there. theres a box in your equipment profile thats called total whirlpool time and it defaults to 0 mins. becuase your total whirlpool time is 15-30 mins you should change that default accordingly (brad smith says it should be the amount of time it takes from flameout until 170f technically). leaving it set at 0 and then whirlpooling for 15-30 mins can cause some beers to come out in a extreme case as much as double the ibus expected especially ipas or hoppy pale ales with specifically alot of flamout-30 min additions. because it doesnt really affect beers with mostly whirlpool or bittering hops it sounded like it may apply to you as ipas and pale ales oftan lean on the late hops and those were what your having the issue with.cheers
 
Last edited:
IslandLizard said:
I'm not saying the water you're using now isn't suitable, but you should find out what it contains. The company selling it to you should know.

Some "drinking water" is filtered local tap water, some is pure RO, while others may contain added "salts" (minerals) for better taste.

RO tends to be cheaper (~$.20-.39) than distilled water (~$.60), you can fill into your own containers from a machine in your supermarket, Walmart, etc.
There should be a last service report and TDS reading on it.

In many cases regular tap water works fine, no need for the extra water expense. You can call your water company for the mineral content we brewers are interested in, and find out about its source(s) and seasonal fluctuations.

And definitely treat municipal water with Campden to remove Chlorine or Chloramines, they all contain one or the other.

Not sure if this was asked and answered before: Where do you get your hops? How do you store them? Leaf or pellets?
Click to expand...
Yea, I looked at the empty bottle. It has “added minerals for taste”...it’s just filtered drinking water I guess. I’m sure if it was RO, it would say RO all over it.
I’ll be switching to distilled or RO, and modifying it to suit the style.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Yea, I looked at the empty bottle. It has “added minerals for taste”...it’s just filtered drinking water I guess. I’m sure if it was RO, it would say RO all over it.
I’ll be switching to distilled or RO, and modifying it to suit the style.
Click to expand...

It's not RO water. I've begun cutting my tap water with some distilled. My grocery store has distilled water, and next to it on shelves the 'purified drinking water'. I buy the distilled because at least I know what's in it(basically nothing), but I think I'm going to start using the RO water machine there because it's cheaper.
 
Probably a water chemistry/pH issue. I'd try a batch with RO and see if the problem goes away. However for what it's worth I've only ever gotten grassy flavors when dry hopping with Cascade or Centennial (solo). I just do not like the result of those hops used as a solo dry hop.
 
My last 2 ipa brews were grassy as well.1 with a 5oz citra dry hop 1 motueka and 1 centennial. Super grassy. And recently a smash with 2 oz dry hop of mosaic. Grassy but to a lesser degree. I use RO bru'n water and a ph meter (Bru'n water is very accurate). I was dry hopping at the end thinking I only want to dry hop for 3 days and cold crash at same time. I believe that after reading many posts and the spike brewing write up on dry hopping temperature, that my problem lies there. Hope this helps.
 
ltito8080 said:
My last 2 ipa brews were grassy as well.1 with a 5oz citra dry hop 1 motueka and 1 centennial. Super grassy. And recently a smash with 2 oz dry hop of mosaic. Grassy but to a lesser degree. I use RO bru'n water and a ph meter (Bru'n water is very accurate). I was dry hopping at the end thinking I only want to dry hop for 3 days and cold crash at same time. I believe that after reading many posts and the spike brewing write up on dry hopping temperature, that my problem lies there. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
What's the recommended dry hop temp?
 
My dry hop temps got pretty low...below 60.
Hops being Centennial and the water PH was God knows what...I might as well dry hop w/ grass clippings by the sounds of it.
 
This is what I do with my ipas recently dryhop while cold crashing. I'll stop this right away. Never crossed my mind it would make that much of a difference.
 
My last grassy one wasn't dry hopped at all... :(

But it had about 3g/l, everything staggered within the last 20 minutes of the boil.
 
Yes, I've experienced the same problems w/o dry hops before (the steeping hops have produced the problem w/o DH's).
I'm guessing it's related to some combination of hop choice, hop freshness. & water PH (for my situation...all scenarios, a few, or just 1).
I'm sure my DH temp's have played a roll, when applicable.
 
I am just having the first beer of the gross and grassy apa kveik.

I am stunned.

I have no Idea how this is physically possible, but after only one week in the bottle, the beer changed completely. From "URGS DO I HAVE TO DRINK THAT!?" To "that is actually quite pleasant".

Don't ask me how.... the world of brewing is full of mysteries to me.
 

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