How to keep Hazy/NE IPAs tasting fresh?

[dogjam]

Hello all,

I've been brewing some very tasty hazy/New England IPAs for a few months now, but they always seem to diminish in tastiness very quickly, within just a few weeks.

Any recommendations for keeping these bad boys fresh-tasting for longer? I ferment in a Grainfather conical and transfer into a keg using gravity, so I know CO2 pressure transfers would help minimize oxygen exposure.

Any other tips or tricks? Thanks in advance for any advice!
DJ

 

[blizz81]

Pretty much anything you can do to minimize O2 exposure from the end of fermentation on. Cold crash under CO2, CO2 transfer, CO2 purge of sanitizer from keg are probably the big ones.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Smaller batches!

 

[day_trippr]

Pretty much anything you can do to minimize O2 exposure from the end of fermentation on.[...]

Exactly. O2 murders uber hoppy brews and the greater the exposure the quicker the mortality...

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

Drink faster

 

[Iseneye]

Oxygen reduction at all levels. The amount of brown tinged crappy commercial craft NEIPAs out there is testament to the requirement for low oxygen.

 

[hottpeper13]

I keg condition all my beers for just this, (reduction of O2). I use 100g of pure cane juice sugar and 300ml of water in the wave for ~2 min. Put 20 psi CO2 on it then disconnect and sit in ambient for 2 wks, chill and serve, or lager for non hoppy ones.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Wondering what flavors you define as "fresh". Are your beers staying hazy? I have had some issues with my hazy beers dropping clear and some of that intense hoppy flavors dropping along in the process. I feel like I do many of the things that should cause "permanent haze".

With my latest batch, I noticed that my beer fridge was still down at 35F from reducing the temps when I had some lagers on tap recently. I read another story of somebody saying that when they reduced the temp in their kegerator down to 34F their NEIPA dropped clear. I moved the temp back up, but I think my beer fridge is always below 40F.

My goal is not haze, but there does seem to be some synergy between proteins and hop oils in suspension that drives hoppy flavors and the flavors/mouthfeel of the style.

 

[BigBlueBrad]

Closed transfers and drink them fast.

 

[sicktght311]

Wondering what flavors you define as "fresh". Are your beers staying hazy? I have had some issues with my hazy beers dropping clear and some of that intense hoppy flavors dropping along in the process. I feel like I do many of the things that should cause "permanent haze".

With my latest batch, I noticed that my beer fridge was still down at 35F from reducing the temps when I had some lagers on tap recently. I read another story of somebody saying that when they reduced the temp in their kegerator down to 34F their NEIPA dropped clear. I moved the temp back up, but I think my beer fridge is always below 40F.

My goal is not haze, but there does seem to be some synergy between proteins and hop oils in suspension that drives hoppy flavors and the flavors/mouthfeel of the style.

recipe? I’ve never had a problem with consistent haze and my keezer is set at 36

 

[CascadesBrewer]

recipe? I’ve never had a problem with consistent haze and my keezer is set at 36

These were probably not the best NEIPA example recipes. I was playing around with some 2.5 gal batches of extract based NEIPA to brew small batches and try out hop combos or maybe different yeasts. What I recall for each 2.5 gal batch was: 3 lbs Pilsner DME, 1 lb Wheat DME, 4 oz Golden Naked Oats steeped, (10 min boil with no boil hops), 3 oz hops at flameout, 3 oz hops dry hop, S-04 yeast. I felt there was enough stuff in there to keep the haze better. The beers started out quite tasty, but the intense hop flavors faded as they settled over a month.

 

[Dgallo]

Hello all,

I've been brewing some very tasty hazy/New England IPAs for a few months now, but they always seem to diminish in tastiness very quickly, within just a few weeks.

Any recommendations for keeping these bad boys fresh-tasting for longer? I ferment in a Grainfather conical and transfer into a keg using gravity, so I know CO2 pressure transfers would help minimize oxygen exposure.

Any other tips or tricks? Thanks in advance for any advice!
DJ

What do you do to eliminate the o2 in the keg before racking to it?

 

[yowzers]

Ferment in the keg and serve from the same keg. Best thing I've done for my IPA's. After a month or two they still taste great and look amazing. I only dry hop one time and I suspend the hops in a hop canister a few inches into the liquid. You can purge the keg with CO2 when you open it to dry hop and it only takes a few seconds. I never open my keg again because I use a floating dip tube to serve the beer. I guess you could also close transfer to another keg if you wanted to, but I've even stopped doing that.

 

[Dgallo]

Ferment in the keg and serve from the same keg. Best thing I've done for my IPA's. After a month or two they still taste great and look amazing. I only dry hop one time and I suspend the hops in a hop canister a few inches into the liquid. You can purge the keg with CO2 when you open it to dry hop and it only takes a few seconds. I never open my keg again because I use a floating dip tube to serve the beer. I guess you could also close transfer to another keg if you wanted to, but I've even stopped doing that.

I’m sure that works form minimizing o2 but I personally would never keep a beer on trub or hops that long ever.

 

[Dgallo]

Hello all,

I've been brewing some very tasty hazy/New England IPAs for a few months now, but they always seem to diminish in tastiness very quickly, within just a few weeks.

Any recommendations for keeping these bad boys fresh-tasting for longer? I ferment in a Grainfather conical and transfer into a keg using gravity, so I know CO2 pressure transfers would help minimize oxygen exposure.

Any other tips or tricks? Thanks in advance for any advice!
DJ

If you have time to read through the last 50 or so pages you will be more that happy you did. This is probably the most comprehensive and experience driven advice and techniques on the style https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-253#post-8704063

 

[yowzers]

I’m sure that works form minimizing o2 but I personally would never keep a beer on trub or hops that long ever.

It doesn't stay on hops as I suspend the canister in the keg. You drink it off the hops in a few glasses. I've closed transferred to a purged keg many times, but found it not necessary lately. I can taste no ill effects from staying on the yeast a couple months. To each his own of course.

 

[BeerFst]

My last two beers were done this way, one of which was probably my best ever, though it was with San Diego super. The New England I did in this manner used imperial voyager and it was pretty meh, though I believe that to be the esters totally overpowering everything. Required an unplanned second dry hop a week or two in, no issues with that either

 

[artichoke]

I keg condition all my beers for just this, (reduction of O2). I use 100g of pure cane juice sugar and 300ml of water in the wave for ~2 min. Put 20 psi CO2 on it then disconnect and sit in ambient for 2 wks, chill and serve, or lager for non hoppy ones.

That is an excellent idea. The yeast will scavenge the oxygen and you save on CO2 for carbonation.

 

[youngdh]

I’m sure that works form minimizing o2 but I personally would never keep a beer on trub or hops that long ever.

My IPAs I do a near zero O2 transfer from fermentor to a CO2 purged keg putting my dry hops in a fine mesh nylon bag floating right in the keg. I don't hang it and let it ride until the keg kicks. My IPAs reach their juiciest about 2-3 month post kegging. I just kicked my last NEIPA keg after 6 months and it was still nice and juicy. No grassy or vegetal flavors at all. O2 is what turns IPAs dank and bitter quickly.

 

[Dgallo]

My IPAs I do a near zero O2 transfer from fermentor to a CO2 purged keg putting my dry hops in a fine mesh nylon bag floating right in the keg. I don't hang it and let it ride until the keg kicks. My IPAs reach their juiciest about 2-3 month post kegging. I just kicked my last NEIPA keg after 6 months and it was still nice and juicy. No grassy or vegetal flavors at all. O2 is what turns IPAs dank and bitter quickly.

O2 pick up or ingest will have nothing to do with dankness or bitterness in your overall flavor. Dankness is a natural hop profile for some varieties such columbus, summit, Apollo(there are plenty others, even citra and Mosiac can be dank depending on the lot) and bitterness comes from alpha acid isomerization.

Oxidation affects would be stale hop flavors and aromas, sweetness/cider/caramel notes, and cardboard and even paint thinner notes.

I’m very surprised you think your beers hit their juiciest after 2/3 months. I’d agree if you said 2/3 weeks but my beers never get better after a month, they do change quite a bit depending on the hop combo

 

[brew703]

I'm going to agree w/Dgallo. I try an consume NEIPA's fairly quickly, like within 1 month but sometimes it last longer.
For instance i brewed one on 10/19 and it still taste fresh and the color hasnt changed. It's just about gone but for me the key is kegging. I started out brewing this style 4 yrs ago (before i started kegging) and every batch became oxidized. After about 4 weeks of bottling the color changed as did the taste. It wasnt so bad that i needed to dump the batch but the beer wasnt as good as fresh.
So i stopped brewing the style until i started kegging and it all changed. The only time my beer sees oxygen is when i dry hop. Other than that no oxygen. Of course it sees O2 during the brewing process but so far that hasnt effected the outcome.

 

[youngdh]

O2 pick up or ingest will have nothing to do with dankness or bitterness in your overall flavor. Dankness is a natural hop profile for some varieties such columbus, summit, Apollo(there are plenty others, even citra and Mosiac can be dank depending on the lot) and bitterness comes from alpha acid isomerization.

Oxidation affects would be stale hop flavors and aromas, sweetness/cider/caramel notes, and cardboard and even paint thinner notes.

I’m very surprised you think your beers hit their juiciest after 2/3 months. I’d agree if you said 2/3 weeks but my beers never get better after a month, they do change quite a bit depending on the hop combo

You are correct that O2 doesn’t change absolute dankness but I could envision oxidation of the hops changing to less than desirable flavors is affecting overall flavor profile. My previous post is based on mine and others observations over several several kegs of IPAs and dry hopping this way. The flavors continue to improve well past the day I keg. I could also envision the hops staying in contact with the beer for the life of the kegged batch sans O2 is allowing longer time for hop flavors and aromas to further interact with the beer and even the yeast still in suspension. I did not have this same experience before minimizing O2 exposure during packaging.

 

[moreb33rplz]

I have fermented and served in the same keg, fermented in keg and closed transfer to a serving keg, and fermented in a better bottle and transferred open air to a serving keg.

...and I couldn't tell a difference between any of them. My 2 cents. I've only brewed 6-7 NEIPA though.

 

[day_trippr]

What is the atmosphere comprised of on your planet?

That New England IPAs are highly susceptible to post-fermentation oxygen exposure is not subject to debate...

Cheers!

 

[moreb33rplz]

What is the atmosphere comprised of on your planet?

That New England IPAs are highly susceptible to post-fermentation oxygen exposure is not subject to debate...

Cheers!

Not subject to debate? Bold statement my friend.

I don't know where truth is, but I disagree with the notion that seems generally accepted around here, that somehow NEIPA reacts to oxygen vastly different than every other beer.

I'm open to hearing your case - but let's not read too much into Brulosophy or Janish. I think they are interesting data points, but they're not going to prove the subject is solved and closed.

 

[davidabcd]

In all seriousness, how long should a hazy IPA remain in perfect drinking condition if all precautions (within reason) are taken?
Edit: Coming from a point of trying to learn: wouldn't spunding solve a whole lot of issues?

 

[Dgallo]

Not subject to debate? Bold statement my friend.

I don't know where truth is, but I disagree with the notion that seems generally accepted around here, that somehow NEIPA reacts to oxygen vastly different than every other beer.

I'm open to hearing your case - but let's not read too much into Brulosophy or Janish. I think they are interesting data points, but they're not going to prove the subject is solved and closed.

It’s not a bold statement by any means, he is correct. There is no debate at all with heavily hopped beers, especially NEIPA, are EXTREMELY susceptible to oxidation. Shellhammer, Janish, have done plenty of scientific studies on this topic and are vast anecdotal evidence from home brewers and well known breweries alike. It’s a real issue and you need to prevent post fermentation oxidation at all cost to have a solid NEIPA

 

[moreb33rplz]

Ok, well I disagree. There is a 'consensus' of vocal people on brewing websites saying it is so. These are the same people, more or less, who have insisted on the critical importance of secondary fermentation, liquid yeast's superiority to dry, or any of the other dozens of things that homebrewers decide than undecide over time.

There is no science that shows this. I'd be interested to read the Shellhammer and Janish bits that suggest it, but let's be real - it isn't science.

My personal experience is that my NEIPAs that I've open transferred vs closed transferred vs fermented/served in the same keg, all taste basically the same. I'm only one guy, and I haven't brewed a zillion NEIPAS, but I've been brewing for 15 years and am not a total beer troglodyte.

Maybe NEIPA behaves the exact same as every other beer? Maybe oxidation isn't perceptible unless certain factors are involved? Maybe I'm full of crap? Maybe the online consensus of NEIPAs being super susceptible to oxidation is full of crap?

 

[Loud Brewing]

Pour a light lager into a glass, then pour a hazy ipa into a glass.
Wait 48 hours then do the eye, nose and taste test. I assure you the heavily hopped hazy will have deviated far more than the lager.

Another thing for the op to consider when keeping hoppy beer in a keg for an extended period of time is ingress through your lines. Regardless of purging processes, you will definitely be introducing O2 through your serving line as well as gas line. Thankfully there are O2 reducing lines that can help

 

[Dgallo]

Ok, well I disagree. There is a 'consensus' of vocal people on brewing websites saying it is so. These are the same people, more or less, who have insisted on the critical importance of secondary fermentation, liquid yeast's superiority to dry, or any of the other dozens of things that homebrewers decide than undecide over time.

There is no science that shows this. I'd be interested to read the Shellhammer and Janish bits that suggest it, but let's be real - it isn't science.

My personal experience is that my NEIPAs that I've open transferred vs closed transferred vs fermented/served in the same keg, all taste basically the same. I'm only one guy, and I haven't brewed a zillion NEIPAS, but I've been brewing for 15 years and am not a total beer troglodyte.

Maybe NEIPA behaves the exact same as every other beer? Maybe oxidation isn't perceptible unless certain factors are involved? Maybe I'm full of crap? Maybe the online consensus of NEIPAs being super susceptible to oxidation is full of crap?

I’m not doubting your experience but You are incorrect here.

So you don’t think your just taking advice from a hber..... ready away.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

http://scottjanish.com/headspace-hazy-ipa-oxidation/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/09/11/the-impact-of-cold-side-oxidation-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/avoiding-oxidation

https://companyweek.com/articles/the-tricky-task-of-canning-hazy-ipas

 

[Dgallo]

Pour a light lager into a glass, then pour a hazy ipa into a glass.
Wait 48 hours then do the eye, nose and taste test. I assure you the heavily hopped hazy will have deviated far more than the lager.

Another thing for the op to consider when keeping hoppy beer in a keg for a couple months is ingress through your lines. Regardlessl of purging processes, you will definitely be introducing O2 through your serving line as well as gas line. Thankfully there are O2 reducing lines that can help

Great idea. That will prove it for you @moreb33rplz You’ll see the color change and stale flavor/aroma right in front of your eyes

 

[Bobby_M]

My personal experience is that my NEIPAs that I've open transferred vs closed transferred vs fermented/served in the same keg, all taste basically the same. I'm only one guy, and I haven't brewed a zillion NEIPAS, but I've been brewing for 15 years and am not a total beer troglodyte.

Maybe NEIPA behaves the exact same as every other beer? Maybe oxidation isn't perceptible unless certain factors are involved? Maybe I'm full of crap? Maybe the online consensus of NEIPAs being super susceptible to oxidation is full of crap?

If you can't tell a difference, I'd lean towards the fact that your threshold for oxidation traits is higher than normal. Oxidition is the biggest flaw in homebrewed NEIPA. I was at a BJCP comp where all the bottles that didn't make BOS where popped and poured and almost all the NEIPAs were brown, muddy and had no hop character left.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I’m not doubting your experience but You are incorrect here.

So you don’t think your just taking advice from a hber..... ready away.
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/impact-cold-side-oxidation-new-england-ipa/

http://scottjanish.com/headspace-hazy-ipa-oxidation/

http://brulosophy.com/2017/09/11/the-impact-of-cold-side-oxidation-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/avoiding-oxidation

https://companyweek.com/articles/the-tricky-task-of-canning-hazy-ipas

Just so you know I agree with you on o2 and oxidation. However, all these sources you cite are from homebrewers who have ZERO scientific credentials. So in a sense you are asking him to just ask another hber, so I would take those references with a grain of salt.
All the papers you seek are behind paywalls. Brewingscience.de and MBAA, have what you seek for real scientific data. I may have some posted on my site in the references section as well (I know I have them all, but not sure if they are up yet or not), these are infact TRUE scientific papers. http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

 

[Dgallo]

Just so you know I agree with you on o2 and oxidation. However, all these sources you cite are from homebrewers who have ZERO scientific credentials. So in a sense you are asking him to just ask another hber, so I would take those references with a grain of salt.
All the papers you seek are behind paywalls. Brewingscience.de and MBAA, have what you seek for real scientific data. I may have some posted on my site in the references section as well (I know I have them all, but not sure if they are up yet or not), these are infact TRUE scientific papers. http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

I guess it could be seen that way but 3 of the articles come from successful professional brewers and reference their sources

 

[Die_Beerery]

I guess it could be seen that way but 3 of the articles come from successful professional brewers and reference their sources

Who I know some that are just glorified homebrewers turned commercial. Thats not to say they are not good brewers, but they are not scientists.

 

[moreb33rplz]

I guess I'm just a contrarian, but my point is that the issue is not 'closed'. An example: One of the Janish blog posts he shows side by side images of the same batch of beer, one normal, one a seemingly oxidized glass of brown sludge. He theorizes the reason is the lid on his fermenting keg was leaky, thus oxidizing the beer.

I think that's ridiculous. There are a lot of reasons why those beers could be different. Expanding this to the larger question, I am inclined to agree that evidence suggests NEIPA may be more susceptible to oxidation, but to what degree, and due to what factors?

My personal experience suggests that doing open transfers of NEIPA imparts no noticeable oxidation. Maybe oxidation occurs but to an imperceptible degree? Maybe I drink my beers quickly enough that the threshold of perception isn't met? Maybe it's the type of hops I use? Maybe it's my water chemistry? Maybe it's one of a million other things?

There is a lot of nuance left to be figured out. And I like reading HBT and Janish and Brulosophy and all the other cool things us homebrewers put on the internet, but we also tend to be 'jump on the bandwagon' group of people, and none of us are proving anything, we're just sharing our personal experience.

 

[blizz81]

There is a lot of nuance left to be figured out. And I like reading HBT and Janish and Brulosophy and all the other cool things us homebrewers put on the internet, but we also tend to be 'jump on the bandwagon' group of people, and none of us are proving anything, we're just sharing our personal experience.

For me, the results of years of brewing highly-hopped beers (NEIPA or not) and seeing them muddle up into the same somewhat-sweet generic hop profile and grow darker in color (there, I'd say more noticeable in NEIPA vs. a clear IPA/DIPA) and then seeing that not happen and have crisp hop definition that lasts for a while when I've taken care to reduce oxygen exposure is enough anecdotal evidence for me on a homebrewing level. I'll say that people have had the muddied hopped beer and thought it was good / sometimes preferred it in cases where I was trying to clone a commercial brew, so everyone's subjective tastes are different.

Both malt-focused beers as well as some beers that were hop-focused but still had a relatively small amount of hops (small and large is obviously subjective, but for comparison I don't bat an eye using 10+oz of hops in 5gal batches esp for NEIPA) have not had a similar large swing in flavor, and until very recently I've been penny-pinching and not using CO2 to sanitizer purge kegs / closed transfer on said batches.

After recently doing CO2 sanitizer keg purges and closed transfers on hopped beer and having success, on my last NEIPA batch my cold crash balloon popped and I had it exposed for a few minutes in my ferm chamber with the freezer lid open at times while I rigged up another balloon (I'm sure I tried to minimize the time the lid was open, and I had hoped that the latent CO2 in the freezer would minimize O2 damage). It was awesome when originally kegged / for the first week or so. After that in a matter of days it turned into a vomit-colored mess with the same sweet, cloying, "this tastes like it has a lot of hops in it but they're muted and now taste like no one hop on earth" flavor I'm all too familiar with.

You may not get the research-level scientific white papers proof you seek currently, especially specific to effects on hopped beers vs. not (and I think it'd be cool if scientists smarter than me would get together in such an effort). You're obviously fine to have whatever viewpoint you have on the subject from your own anecdotal experience vs. other brewers and enjoy your beers however you want to brew them. Don't be surprised if there's something to all of the hubbub in the end as more people continue to support specific viewpoints, be it homebrewers or professional brewers. Usually there are good reasons the brewing community sways these ways and I don't think by and large we contradict ourselves much in ways that aren't in the end progressive thanks to new knowledge / new equipment affording new technique/practices, etc.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I'll say that people have had the muddied hopped beer and thought it was good / sometimes preferred it

On thing that I learned this year is that not all the sweet/caramel flavors and gold colors in my beers were from Crystal malt. I bottle some small hop sampler batches. Now that I understand better how oxidation shows in a beer, I notice it often with those beers, where in the past I likely would not have attributed the flavors to oxidation.

I made a couple process improvements this year, so sometimes it is hard to pinpoint the actual cause of improvement, but water chemistry and closed keg transfers both appear to have dramatic improvements in the quality of my beers...especially IPAs.

I did a minor experiment this year where I had 3 hopped beers on tap. One was a moderately hopped NEIPA; one was a IPA with the exact same hops; one was a Pale Ale that minimally hopped (maybe 4 oz total, 1 oz dry hops). I sat the 3 out in small glasses. The NEIPA and IPA turned a deep brown very quickly. The Pale Ale darked a little, but not nearly like the heavily hopped beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

My personal experience suggests that doing open transfers of NEIPA imparts no noticeable oxidation. Maybe oxidation occurs but to an imperceptible degree? Maybe I drink my beers quickly enough that the threshold of perception isn't met? Maybe it's the type of hops I use? Maybe it's my water chemistry? Maybe it's one of a million other things?

I'm glad you use the word "suggests". Without outside blind evaluation of your beers, all you have is your own personal experience. If you are happy with the beer and you brew it for yourself, you don't have anything to worry about and there really isn't a conversation to be had is there? For all I know, your NEIPA style beers are so badly brewed across the board that a little oxidation is the least of your problems. I wouldn't assume that, but that is one plausible explanation.

As a homebrew shop proprietor, I'm asked to taste a LOT of beer. I'm often pleasantly impressed by good beer quality from many people. Unfortunately I also have to hold back a spit-take of some horrible beer that the brewer was really proud of making.

If you're really curious about the state of your beer, enter some competitions. If you get a few sheets back without the oxidized box checked, you're golden.

I'll give you my own anectodal view on it. I've been brewing for 14 years and occasionally entered beer into comps. In general, only beers where oxidation and other small flaws would otherwise be well covered up did well (English Barleywine for example). Early last year, I switched to 100% oxygen free transfers and began to destroy in comps. There was one comp where I entered 3 beers and got 3 golds and a 2nd best in show. One of the golds was a NEIPA. I can tell you with high confidence that it would have been impossible only a year earlier.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Good points by all. To repeat it too, my standard practice is to ferment and serve from the same keg.