How should a Berliner Weisse Taste?

[Morkin]

Berliner Weisse is the ONLY beer I've ever made that I have never tried. I have searched and searched and cannot find an example.

I had originally thought that my Berliner Weisse should taste like a sour wheat beer. The sourness according to BJCP is not like a Lambic or Flander Red, which are the only sours I've had.

So how is the sour supposed to taste? My Berliner Weisse tastes amazing to me, but I want it to be true to the style, and may want to enter it into competition.

I associate sour flavor in beers to fruit tartness, a lip puckering flavor. But that is not what I am supposed to get right?

Anyone have any thoughts on what it's supposed to taste like? Thanks.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I have yet to try a BerlW but it is something I am have considered brewing to be able to.

That is, until I started getting a concensus that it is more of a fruit flavoreed beer than a sour (vinous) character.

I'd prolly love it but, 5 gallons of beer you hate is a LOT of beer.

 

[arturo7]

crisp, light, and tart

 

[Gfei]

I have yet to try a BerlW but it is something I am have considered brewing to be able to.

That is, until I started getting a concensus that it is more of a fruit flavoreed beer than a sour (vinous) character.

I'd prolly love it but, 5 gallons of beer you hate is a LOT of beer.

I wouldn't call it fruit flavored, definitely very light and tart. Although the 1809 Berliner Weisse I've had does have a light sour apple flavor that I thought was really good. Still not what I would call "fruity" though...

 

[Morkin]

Thats what I have now. It's sour, but almost a grainy/wheat sour.

It almost tastes like a highly carbonated Boulevard Wheat with Sour added, very light and refreshing. Bottled in Belgian Bottles and can easily drink the whole thing in an hour.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I wouldn't call it fruit flavored, definitely very light and tart. Although the 1809 Berliner Weisse I've had does have a light sour apple flavor that I thought was really good. Still not what I would call "fruity" though...

1809 was recently described to me as a "girly lemonade beer" = fruit.

A highly carbonated shandy does tend to be how BW is described.

 

[remilard]

Where are you in MO? Most places in kc carry kindle. 1809 is much higher gravity than what berlin breweries are doing.

 

[arturo7]

BW should be 3-4% ABV. Never had the 1809, but if it's heavier and sweet it is not to style.

If a BW tastes like a shandy, it is most definitely not to style.

 

[Edcculus]

I like to refer to it as the lemonade of the beer world. Essentially what Arturo said. crisp, light and tart.

 

[RugenBrau]

I''ve only tasted the wort, as it is carbonating right now. We described it as crisp, with a light bite. Sort of like a watered down lemonade. That makes it sound terrible but it really was quite tasty. Can't wait to try it.

 

[arturo7]

I understand the lemonade comparison, but it's a bit misleading. Maybe if the lemonade was made without sugar and didn't taste like lemons.

 

[Morkin]

I'm in Hermann Missouri, hour outside of Jefferson City. I'll have to look it up when I'm in KC Next.

 

[patto1ro]

Berliner Weisse should be extremely sour, more than even many lambics. It should also have a little brett flavour.

The 1809 is unlike a genuine Berliner Weisse in almost every respect - colour, strength, mouthfeel, carbonation, level of sourness. It will give you no idea of how the real thing tastes.

 

[remilard]

I'm in Hermann Missouri, hour outside of Jefferson City. I'll have to look it up when I'm in KC Next.

St Louis shops will carry it as well.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Berliner Weisse should be extremely sour, more than even many lambics. It should also have a little brett flavour.

The 1809 is unlike a genuine Berliner Weisse in almost every respect - colour, strength, mouthfeel, carbonation, level of sourness. It will give you no idea of how the real thing tastes.

No.

A berliner should have a lactic sourness, but not as acidic or sour as many lambics. It also CAN have brett, but it isn't a necessity. Both of your defining guidelines are optional for the style.

 

[patto1ro]

No.

A berliner should have a lactic sourness, but not as acidic or sour as many lambics. It also CAN have brett, but it isn't a necessity. Both of your defining guidelines are optional for the style.

What are you basing that on? I've had at least 6 different Berliner Weisses that were brewed in Berlin. All were very, very sour. As sour as the very sourest lambics I've had.

As for the brett that comes form the book "Die Berliner Weisse" published by the VLB (the brewing school in Berlin) page 87. It says that a certain concentration of brett is necessary to attain the correct aroma for a Berliner Weisse.

 

[funkbier]

What are you basing that on? I've had at least 6 different Berliner Weisses that were brewed in Berlin. All were very, very sour. As sour as the very sourest lambics I've had.

As for the brett that comes form the book "Die Berliner Weisse" published by the VLB (the brewing school in Berlin) page 87. It says that a certain concentration of brett is necessary to attain the correct aroma for a Berliner Weisse.

:rockin: Refutation with references. I love it

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

In VooDoo's defense, not that he needs it from me;

From the BJCP:

Flavor: Clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong, although not so acidic as a lambic. Some complementary bready or grainy wheat flavor is generally noticeable. Hop bitterness is very low. A mild Brettanomyces character may be detected, as may a restrained fruitiness (both are optional). No hop flavor. No diacetyl or DMS.

So, both are correct depending on what aspect of timeline you accept. The twop being traditional and ameri-cepted.

 

[remilard]

If patto1ro is who I think he is, you've just opened a can of worms.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

No cans. No worms. Depending on perspective it appears they are both correct in what a Berliner Wess should be. Not much different than that of style regarding decoction. Decoction is the tradition but infusion is accepted practice and wins comps and medals even in commercial circuits. Right is perspective.


The BJCP and the text reference descriptions seem heavenly. Word of mouth doesn't measure up.

 

[patto1ro]

In VooDoo's defense, not that he needs it from me;

From the BJCP:

Flavor: Clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong, although not so acidic as a lambic. Some complementary bready or grainy wheat flavor is generally noticeable. Hop bitterness is very low. A mild Brettanomyces character may be detected, as may a restrained fruitiness (both are optional). No hop flavor. No diacetyl or DMS.

So, both are correct depending on what aspect of timeline you accept. The twop being traditional and ameri-cepted.

Are you trying to say that the BJCP is an equal authority to the VLB when it comes to Berliner Weisse? The VLB* is an organisation that has more than 100 years of experience researching and documenting Berliner Weisse.

I don't understand what you mean about a timeline. The study that determined the role of brett in the flavour of Berliner Weisse was made in the 1980's.

Call me crazy, but I think a Berlin brewing school trumps the BJCP in expertise when it comes to a Berlin beer style.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Read this and make your own mind up:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Berliner Weisse


* Versuchs- und Lehranstalt für Brauerei in Berlin
http://www.vlb-berlin.org

They've published some great books in their time, including the seminal "Die Herstellung Obergährige Biere".

 

[ArcaneXor]

I want that Berliner Weisse book. Too bad Amazon.de doesn't seem to carry it! I'll have to do some digging...

 

[patto1ro]

I want that Berliner Weisse book. Too bad Amazon.de doesn't seem to carry it! I'll have to do some digging...

These people seem to have it:

http://www.buchhandel.de/WebApi1/TitelSuche.asp?Caller=vlbPublic&uid=&Func=Search&Autor=Manger, Hans

I was lucky. Stan Hieronymous very generously gave me his copy.

 

[arturo7]

So, both are correct depending on what aspect of timeline you accept. The twop being traditional and ameri-cepted.

Are you trying to say that the BJCP is an equal authority to the VLB when it comes to Berliner Weisse?

I think the point is that there are two distinct styles of Berliner Weisse. Are you are saying, patto, that the BJCP style is invalid? Perhaps we should stop brewing west coast IPAs as well in favor of the British style?

 

[patto1ro]

I think the point is that there are two distinct styles of Berliner Weisse. Are you are saying, patto, that the BJCP style is invalid? Perhaps we should stop brewing west coast IPAs as well in favor of the British style?

Right . . . So there's an American style of Berliner Weisse. Exactly who brews that and what are its origins?

The original question was "What does Berliner Weisse taste like?" Naively, I thought that meant beer brewed in Berlin.

 

[arturo7]

The Bruery has an excellent example of the American style, Hottenroth.

For my palate, the American style is preferred. Even the Berliners, more often than not, drink original style with sweeteners.

 

[ChrisKennedy]

From most commercial examples I have had in the US, they are either not nearly sour enough or have some garbagey aromas that are probably a result of an improperly conducted sour mash.

For me, a berliner should be firmly sour, but not so sour that it is unpleasant to drink without syrup. This still allows for quite a bit of leeway, as I have made berliners at home that ended up around 3.15pH and still very enjoyable to drink, just not by the liter. It should have some dough-like aroma and flavor, it should be very dry, perhaps a light funk to add a slight bit of complexity. I like my berliners low in alcohol, around 3-3.5 ABV.

I have yet to find a commercial example of berliner weisse that I really love. Easily the most common problem is just not sour enough.

 

[remilard]

The Bruery has an excellent example of the American style, Hottenroth.

For my palate, the American style is preferred. Even the Berliners, more often than not, drink original style with sweeteners.

But "Berliner" means "from Berlin" (or jelly donut in a common urban myth).

The Bruery has made a nice beer with quite a bit of brett character and relatively little lactic character. You like it and I like it but it isn't like Berlin wheat beers.

I like Consecration (or whatever) but it would probably annoy Europeans if I started claiming it was the standard for Flander's Red. I can appreciate Consecration while recognizing that it differs from the archetype (Rodenbach).

What if people started saying American IPA has to taste like Hardcore IPA (or that Hardcore is the archetype for a second equally valid version of American IPA). I think you and I would laugh.

 

[arturo7]

I agree with you rems, but unless another name emerges for the American style, what else can we call it?

 

[olllllo]

Since this is a homebrewing forum in the US, the OP is probably interested in both the bjcp and vlb, but will doubtless be judged according to the bjcp shoud he/she enter it in any competition.

Since we have style mavens in each of these schools of thought, we should take advantage of discussing the differences and similarities.

 

[olllllo]

Ron, bear in mind, you did just post in a forum full of twats.*

 

[carnevoodoo]

Do I know what I'm talking about? Read this and make your own mind up:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Berliner Weisse

So you post a link where two posts down from the top Berliner post goes through a few Berliners...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/09/berliner-weisse-and-brettanomyces.html

"The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour."

"Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. "

There are discussions all over that blog about how brett is NOT in every example of a berliner weisse. And how they're not all intensely sour. Styles vary, and there's a big variance on this style, even traditionally.

 

[arturo7]

What does being a twat have to do with style differences and similarities?

 

[ChrisKennedy]

What are the examples of this supposedly distinct American style? Hottenroth and?

Hottenroth was a fine beer, but the nearly complete lack of lactic sourness (at least in the examples I have tried) means that, to me, it is not a Berliner at all. To call a beer without a fairly assertive lactic sourness a berliner is like calling a beer without a fairly assertive hoppy aroma/flavor an American IPA. It may share other similarities, but it is missing what is essentially the hallmark of the style.

 

[patto1ro]

So you post a link where two posts down from the top Berliner post goes through a few Berliners...

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/09/berliner-weisse-and-brettanomyces.html

"The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour."

"Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. "

There are discussions all over that blog about how brett is NOT in every example of a berliner weisse. And how they're not all intensely sour. Styles vary, and there's a big variance on this style, even traditionally.

You cut out all the best bits:

"What did they taste like?" That was the point of all this. Telling you that. Sort of. I didn't take notes. I never do in Wildeman. These are just my impressions, recorded a day or two later. Ohne Gewähr, as they say on German TV.

The Landré was nicely, but not crazily, sour. Pretty clean tasting. A touch of rotting hay. Bone dry. In incredibly good nick for its age.

Groterjan had a whole barnyard in its aroma. A touch less sour, and with a a spike of infection. Think bière de garde. About double the mouldy wood accent that has. Drinkable despite that. Despite that. What am I saying, despite that. Beers several decades its junior I've spat into the canal. I'm being picky.




I'm being picky again.

 

[arturo7]

Guess I had the wrong idea. The BJCP indicates "clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong." Hottenroth is probably not a good example of the style. (still, however, a tasty quaff)

I had assumed that the "American" style meant that it was less sour than the traditional style. Most of the American versions I had were rather tame, and in Berlin, the style is usually served with a sweetener.

Damn, now I want one.

 

[remilard]

Guess I had the wrong idea. The BJCP indicates "clean lactic sourness dominates and can be quite strong." Hottenroth is probably not a good example of the style. (still, however, a tasty quaff)

I had assumed that the "American" style meant that it was less sour than the traditional style. Most of the American versions I had were rather tame, and in Berlin, the style is usually served with a sweetener.

Damn, now I want one.

That's an interesting point in that, the person who likes Berliner Weiss in Berlin is rare to the point that they treat you like a moron if you try to order one without a shot (including doing so in proficient german). Of course, we like to glamorous lambic and people are mixing sugar into that in the Senne Valley.

So one distinction in american craft and home brewed versions is that, in most cases, we are brewing a beer to be drunk as is. I'm sure I've read that Berliner Weiss was not as sour at some points in history as it is now.

IME you need to put something pretty sour in front of most BJCP judges.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Look, all I am saying is that both descriptions are valid.

It appears that, if you want to make a traditional, geographically correct, "ethnically" correct Berliner then you brew it to the descriptions if the VLB.

But, if you want to compete with one in the US then you make it according to the BJCP.

Capice? Faham? Begreifen? Wakari masu ka?


Personally, I don't care which way it's brewed. I still don'y have any personal experience with the style as I can't eem to find it anywhere when I travel. I'd love to try it tho.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I think the "ethnically correct" comment is way out of line.

A BW is a BW. Just like a Koelsch is a Koelsch, and an Altbier and Altbier. They are historic styles with a strong "place" aspect reflecting the cities of Berlin, Cologne and Duesseldorf in which they evolved over time. As homebrewers, we can use these styles as inspirations and tweak them to please our palates in whichever way we want. But what we or the BJCP thinks (based on what they see in the domestic market and at competitions) doesn't change what the authentic styles are.

Having to stray from the original flavor profile to match the BJCP guidelines to have a chance of winning something is another of many examples how detrimental the de-facto judging monopoly of the BJCP and their obsession with sometimes-arbitrary styles is detrimental to the competition side of our beloved hobby.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think the "ethnically correct" comment is way out of line.

You have GOT to be joking.

Ethnic

a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

It's even in the title, Berliner aka of Berlin. How is that not ethnic?

Not everything is a slur against humanity.