How do you slow down a new brewer?

[nasty_rabbit]

I have recently returned to homebrewing after an 18 year hiatus. I started when the kids were small and then life got in the way, now they are grown and I’m back. Many techniques have evolved in that period of time and I am trying to catch up. Two that stand out for me were to now use my 5 gallon carboy only for 3 gallon batches and not as a secondary and yeast are packaged in something other than foil. I have started back slow and simple to re-learn what has faded from memory so I consider myself a somewhat experienced noob. Now to my dilemma. A very good friend and neighbor is my brew partner and he has never brewed before. Together we have recently brewed about seven 5 gallon extract batches. Our methods are about the same but he feels the need to brew either beer that could be purchased cheaper (Blue Moon clones) or add fruits and spices (Lemon/Coriander) to recreate another style or raise the alcohol as high as possible. I have tried to ease into it with a simple Blond an American Pale Ale and an old recipe for a Crystal Honey Ale. I know that his desires are what most new brewers think is the right way to jump in head first but the problem is none of his beers have turned out well. Right now he has one batch that is just un-drinkable (I don’t think we could even cook with it), two batches that have been bottle conditioning for more than 6 weeks with the hopes that next week they will be better, one in a primary that should be ready to bottle soon and he wants to try that batch again this week-end with out even tasting it. I have suggested to try a basic wheat and master that, then move on to more interesting endeavors but it doesn’t seem to sink in. Please don’t get me wrong I’m not beating him up, my concern is that he will get discouraged and throw in the towel and all I want is for him to slow down and get the process under control. Any suggestions on how to accomplish this?

 

[brewser7]

When I started brewing 6 months ago I pretty much jumped in head first. I tried some pretty detailed recipes and they all turned out pretty good. I didnt hit all my numbers but the beer was tasty. These recipes included a blue moon clone and two batches of strawberry blonde in which I added strawberries to the secondary fermenter. To me, the problem doesn't sound like it is the recipes but the brewer. Are the beers infected? How are his sanitization processes? The biggest challenge for me is keeping everything clean and sanitized. It takes more effort on that side for me than the actual brewing process.

Is he doing full boils or adding tap water at the end? If he is topping off with tap water, that could be an issue.

I would recommend searching for a proven recipe on HBT with step by step instructions and trying it. That is how I started and my beers have been good so far. I'm not very experienced with this so take my advise with a grain of salt. I hope your brew buddy sticks with the hobby and finds a way to make some good beer!

 

[KevinW]

I agree with brewser. If you understand what you are planning to do then it is a lot easier to generate a decent product.

If he wants to add more ABV or "tweak" a recipe what about sitting down with him and helping him plan it out by researching some proven techiniques to help prevent a "bad" batch of beer. In other words, there usually many "wrong" ways to do something but only one or two "correct" ways to do it! Maybe, as the "experienced" brewer, he will let you guide him to the path of good brew?

Other than that, keep brewing good beers and when he sees you are making better beers that he is maybe he will come around and ask how you do it?

Good luck and keep on brewing

 

[nasty_rabbit]

It's not sanitation or technique as we are working side by side on brew day. He does use a different LHBS and some of the recommendation from there encourage the experimentation. He does have the "Bigger Is Better" way of thinking. A recipe calls for 1 tsp crushed coriander, typically the next statement is "3 tsp should be better".

Maybe my concern is somewhat selfish as that we have 4 cornies and about 200 bottles and I'm afraid that they may end up full of something that cannot be consumed. My next thread may be how do you convince a friend to pour out a batch of bad beer?

 

[KevinW]

Does he like the beers he has brewed?

If he does then more power to him!

If he does not then maybe he needs to listen more to your wisdom and keep it simple!

As much as I don't like to admit, there are some people that just don't get it! It is like cooking, there are people who cannot make scrambled eggs! Humans have been eating scramble eggs about as long as they have been drinking beer! (maybe a little longer)

 

[SGFBeerBuzz]

Your friend will just need to figure out that beer is about balance. Coriander is strong, so 3 tsp instead of one is a pretty big deal, but more importantly he need to also learn that brewing is a process.

To make consistent beer and avoid undrinkable batches, you have to be able to tell what you did. Are you guys keeping beer journals? It might help to slow him down if he stops to keep records. It will also help him to find why his bathes are undrinkable. For instance, if he followed a recipe except for one bit, next time try following that bit and maybe trying something else. I'm not sure you'll be able to tame his experimentation, as he probably feels a bit like the mad chemist and is enjoying that aspect.

Anyway, if he has beer in bottles that is not carbonating properly, maybe you should keg and force carb them. If they're just awful, make him take them home. if you need more bottles, start hitting up local bars or your craft beer drinking buddies. Offer your buddies a sixer of homebrew for every case of clean bottles with the labels removed. You might be surprised how your problem can become having too many bottles (trust me).

At any rate, I wish I could come and give your friend a shake for you. let us know how it goes.

 

[Uziyahu]

My guess is that you should wait until he tries a batch of your far superior beer and asks, "How did you get these to taste so good?" Then you have an opening to help him. If he's happy with the product he's putting out, it'll be hard to convince him to do anything else. You may just have to wait until he asks for your help. Unsolicited advice is very often received poorly.

 

[duboman]

Unfortunately some people just need to learn things the hard way and then they waste time going backwards so they can begin to move forward in a more educated way. If he winds up making crappy beer then there is the opportunity to teach and educate as to why the beer didn't turn out the way it was supposed to.

Sometimes learning by example is the best way for some folks, when they see what happened because of the way they went about something they can then begin to understand that there is a learning curve and refine their process. If he likes beer he will not give up trying to make it, he'll just have a larger learning curve to battle.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

Does he like the beers he has brewed?

If he does then more power to him!

If he does not then maybe he needs to listen more to your wisdom and keep it simple!

As much as I don't like to admit, there are some people that just don't get it! It is like cooking, there are people who cannot make scrambled eggs! Humans have been eating scramble eggs about as long as they have been drinking beer! (maybe a little longer)

He does not, and it is apparent that no one esle does either. And my wisdon, I will admit, is woefully limited.

 

[kh54s10]

As already mentioned, brew yours to a good recipe without willy-nilly additions. When his don't measure up to yours explain that just adding ingredients or increasing amounts without understanding what that will do can easily make a great recipe bad.

After he makes a few bad beers maybe you can get him to plan out his recipes with balance and final taste not ABV in mind BEFORE he gets discouraged and quits.

If he won't listen, he gets what is coming to him.

Maybe you can get him to read this thread.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

My guess is that you should wait until he tries a batch of your far superior beer and asks, "How did you get these to taste so good?" Then you have an opening to help him. If he's happy with the product he's putting out, it'll be hard to convince him to do anything else. You may just have to wait until he asks for your help. Unsolicited advice is very often received poorly.

My batches are admitedly only adaquate. I know that it may be years if ever that I would consider a competition. But they are palatable and outside opiion has been positive.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

Your friend will just need to figure out that beer is about balance. Coriander is strong, so 3 tsp instead of one is a pretty big deal, but more importantly he need to also learn that brewing is a process.

To make consistent beer and avoid undrinkable batches, you have to be able to tell what you did. Are you guys keeping beer journals? It might help to slow him down if he stops to keep records. It will also help him to find why his bathes are undrinkable. For instance, if he followed a recipe except for one bit, next time try following that bit and maybe trying something else. I'm not sure you'll be able to tame his experimentation, as he probably feels a bit like the mad chemist and is enjoying that aspect.

Anyway, if he has beer in bottles that is not carbonating properly, maybe you should keg and force carb them. If they're just awful, make him take them home. if you need more bottles, start hitting up local bars or your craft beer drinking buddies. Offer your buddies a sixer of homebrew for every case of clean bottles with the labels removed. You might be surprised how your problem can become having too many bottles (trust me).

At any rate, I wish I could come and give your friend a shake for you. let us know how it goes.

I am a firm believer that if a task is made simple it will be done. I have moved a spare computer into the garage (our brew house) to make the record keeping as convienient as possible, installed a chalk board to list steps on brew day and almost require a discussion of what we will be doing before we start to insure consistancy. The chalk board and discussion work well but once the records are compiled he will not review to see what has happened but will only add steps to an already failed attempt.

 

[SGFBeerBuzz]

I am a firm believer that if a task is made simple it will be done. I have moved a spare computer into the garage (our brew house) to make the record keeping as convienient as possible, installed a chalk board to list steps on brew day and almost require a discussion of what we will be doing before we start to insure consistancy. The chalk board and discussion work well but once the records are compiled he will not review to see what has happened but will only add steps to an already failed attempt.

You have inspired me, sir. I'm just about to rework my brewhouse (read: garage), and now I need a dry erase or chalk board and a computer.

I even have a couple of PC's which could serve just laying around.

 

[OldWorld]

I have made great beer without a hydrometer or recipe. I have made beers with a dozen ingredients...and some with only two. Both types turned out very well.

Get him to make a low gravity pale ale that is drinkable in weeks and maybe he'll slow down.

 

[nasty_rabbit]

Anyway, if he has beer in bottles that is not carbonating properly, maybe you should keg and force carb them. QUOTE]

This is the case for one of the batches. How do we move from bottles to keg with out adding a metric ton of O2 in the transfer?

 

[SGFBeerBuzz]

Ridiculous consumption of CO2 shouldn't be a problem. It's really oxidation you should worry about, in my opinion. If you prefer, you can add some priming sugar to the keg instead, but I'd also add some fresh yeast to make sure that that is not the reason it is not carbonated. (if the beer is high ABV, he may be begone his yeast's ability to continue fermenting, for instance).

I've moved beer to a keg before. It went this way:

Flood the keg with CO2. This shouldn't take much.

Open to top of the keg, and be careful not to jostle it too much. CO2 is heavier than air so it should stay settled in the keg unless you're in the wind or something.

Gently open and pour the beers into the keg. Make sure and try to keep the lip of the bottle just inside the top of the keg while pouring. This will help limit the exposure to oxygen.

As the beer fills the keg, it will displace most of the CO2 in the keg, but more will remain inside. This will leave a layer of CO2 in the keg when you're done. That will help reduce oxidation, as well.

Once you're done, seal her up and force carbonate her or let her carb naturally if you added priming sugar.

The batch I was forced to do this with was an 8% ABV monster and it aged really well in the keg. Oxidation wasn't bad at all.

 

[bighorn_brew]

Personally, I would just keep your game plan, and only offer suggestion after being asked for it. Maybe start entering competitions and when you get score sheets back your neighbor will see them and also start entering competitions and subsequent comments will be unfavorable at which point he'll ask you for help. Concentrate on fundamentals, brew your beer and don't worry too much about his game plan.

In regards to his bottles not carbin, I would open and empty into a keg, if you Know he put priming sugar in the bucket, try adding some grains of yeast to each bottle, warming them and waiting.

Good luck!

 

[nasty_rabbit]

Well, it’s been four plus months since I posed this question to the forum and I am now realizing that it may have been me who was wrong. As in everything with brewing, patience is the key to success. His technique has mellowed with time. We went through some rough beers over this period as that we brew and bottle or keg every other weekend some times two at a time. No more shooting from the hip on recipes, no more extremely big beers. The experimentation slowed to a crawl and the last beer that he brewed was a simple wheat that turned out excellent. Last weekend we tapped the keg and I would bet that between the two of us, our spouses and another two friends that 3 of the 5 gallons were consumed. The one before that was a stout that he will only bring over two bottles chilled so that we don’t run out too soon. There is still the one keg tapped that no one will drink but I think that we figured out a solution to this. He was committed to dumping it but I think that we will practice bottle filling from this spigot to perfect the process. I believe that there is at least 3 gallons left so we should get good at it with disposable beer?

After reading the original post I read between my own lines and saw “Is my beer infected?”, “Bubbles in the air lock stopped can I drink it now?”, “Should I attach a blow off?”, “My LHBS tells me to secondary, when should I do this and for how long?”

So I am admittedly repeating to my self RELAX RELAX RELAX.

Thanks to all who posted responsible solutions, I am glad none were to shoot the SOB and move on. My next thread may be “I am envious, how can I get better than the guy that I am brewing with?”

Again thanks to all.

 

[broadbill]

nevermind....good to hear it worked out.

 

[david_42]

All too common a problem. The guy I originally brewed with was willing to drink just about anything labeled beer that had alcohol in it. It was a real battle getting him to slow down and make proven recipes without changes. A double chocolate imperial stout that went ropey did the trick. Almost $60 down the slope.

 

[cknittle]

Challenge him. Start with the same basic proven recipe. You brew it your way (with minimal changes) let him brew it his way( all the changes he wants). Do both of these at the same time, bottle or keg them the same way. And have some outsiders judge the two against each other.

That said, I'm a new brewer with only about 6 batches under my belt. My philosophy on it is, why brew something I can buy. I didn't start brewing for saving money, I started to so I can experiment and make whatever I wanted. I have done some classic styles too though.

 

[kombat]

My philosophy on it is, why brew something I can buy.

• Pride - Doing the blind taste test with friends, "Guess which is Brewery X's and which is mine?"
• Familiarity with ingredients - Knowing the grain wasn't swept up off the floor, nobody sneezed in the yeast, the equipment was properly sanitized, etc.
• Cost - One cannot ignore that it should be cheaper to brew it yourself rather than buy it mass-produced.
• Insurance - What if your favorite brewery goes under? Wouldn't it be nice to know you can competently brew a replica of your favorite beer from that brewery?

That's just off the top of my head. My main goal right now is to produce an accurate reproduction of my favorite beer from my favorite brewery.