How and when do water additions affect flavour

[Ski]

Hi,

So I am messing around with some ideas and water calculations but need a bit more info about why the different components of the water effect the flavour.

If I start with distilled water say, I can choose to add sulfate, calcium, chloride etc at any point right up to bottling!

For example do sulfates effect the hop bitterness in the same way if add them when fermenting, is it an interaction of sulfates with the physical hops ? My reasoning is that you can dry and toughen a steak by marinading it in salt, so for best results you add salt just before cooking, are there similar concepts in brewing ?

Does anyone have any info of 'how' the flavours are developed from these minerals ?

Thanks!

 

[mchrispen]

I just did a blog post at Accidentalis.com on a brown ale doctored post fermentation (but before bottle conditioning) with various mineral salts. Always - take the results as an anecdote - it should not replace your experimentation. The three adjustments created three very unique beers post fermentation - none were good beers however.

I have done this test several times. I find that getting the salt additions correct in the mash yields the best results. That is - if your mash pH is correct, and the flavor ions are where you expect, processing through the mash and boil ensures thorough hydration and dissolution of the minerals - and the natural reactions that may precipitate some ions like calcium in oxilates. Some of the more extreme (Burtonized) profiles may drive your boil pH lower than you might want. When added to fermented wort, the mineral additions seem more coarse and rough. That said - they give you a great idea of where you may wish to move the ion concentrations for the next brew. Nothing can replace repeated brewing of a given recipe with varied and controlled salt additions - you will learn a lot.

Vectors are sulfate for increased perceived hop character and dryness, and some mineral character; chloride for more rounded malts and perceived body. Magnesium and sodium play a secondary role - adding sour and mineral notes that may enhance your recipe goals. Primary goal should always be mash pH which is necessary to produce full malt character and extraction from your mash. Some folks (like myself) target varied mash pH against beer characteristics... such as 5.2/5.3 for tart/dry beers and 5.5/5.6 for very full malty beers.

I am a proponent of using software like Bru'n Water or Brewer's Friend to manage your salt additions and adjusting with acid to achieve your target mash pH, as well as the use of a quality, calibrated and stable pH meter to measure your mash pH (at roughly 30 minutes at room temps) to ensure you are on target. There are lots of tools - choose the ones that work for you and your brewing style.

Quite frankly - water management helps to push your recipe in one direction or another but doesn't solve poor recipe design. Solid and repeatable recipes, mash technique and proper hop utilization are required before water management provides the nuances you might be looking for. Malty beers require expressive and malty malt products, and hoppiness requires the right blend and application of hops.

 

[Ski]

Hi thanks for the informative reply, and the blog was very interesting, did you consider making solutions of the minerals in water and then adding them to the beer to avoid oxidation? One thing that seems apparent though is that small additions post boil can have a big effect, and that could potentially be a powerful tool to sculpt a beer into a specific direction.

I had a feeling that might be the case, that leaves almost an infinite amount of experiments for me!

The added complexity is that I brew GF, so no malt and generally alkaline mash ingredients which without adjustment strongly buffer to PH 6 or so with my tap water. I don't get the typical calcium / phytin reactions either.

However this seems like good news, although there is a lot of experimentation, any additional tools to control the flavour is a positive when you are trying to get something that isn't beer to taste like beer, now I just need to work out how to effectively use them all!

 

[mchrispen]

I didn't use saturated water solutions because I didn't want to dilute the beer any further. I would also say that the gypsum addition in particular was far rougher than much larger additions going through the boil. Given you are doing gluten free - I don't have much idea on the effects in such a mash... but believe somewhere there should be mash pH information and conversion data for alternative grains... or even make boil adjustments if using syrups/extracts. Frankly my suspicion is that the calcium may cause some stability issues over time...

 

[Ski]

Sorry I should have been more specific, I am using all GF non-malted grains and relying on artificial enzymes! In general the GF home brewing scene uses malted GF grains or syrups, I am in somewhat uncharted territory. Its only recently after all that they have made the first few steps towards brewing normal beer with un-malted barley using only enzymes.

I think I need to create a load of little 1l mash tuns and do a lot of experiments with different minerals to see the reactions with different grains. It will be nice when I start pinning down some of these variables!

In regards to gypsum, I think it dissolves best at low temperatures ? cant remember where I read that though...

 

[BryBrew]

I just did a blog post at Accidentalis.com on a brown ale doctored post fermentation (but before bottle conditioning) with various mineral salts. Always - take the results as an anecdote - it should not replace your experimentation. The three adjustments created three very unique beers post fermentation - none were good beers however.

I have done this test several times. I find that getting the salt additions correct in the mash yields the best results. That is - if your mash pH is correct, and the flavor ions are where you expect, processing through the mash and boil ensures thorough hydration and dissolution of the minerals - and the natural reactions that may precipitate some ions like calcium in oxilates. Some of the more extreme (Burtonized) profiles may drive your boil pH lower than you might want. When added to fermented wort, the mineral additions seem more coarse and rough. That said - they give you a great idea of where you may wish to move the ion concentrations for the next brew. Nothing can replace repeated brewing of a given recipe with varied and controlled salt additions - you will learn a lot.

Vectors are sulfate for increased perceived hop character and dryness, and some mineral character; chloride for more rounded malts and perceived body. Magnesium and sodium play a secondary role - adding sour and mineral notes that may enhance your recipe goals. Primary goal should always be mash pH which is necessary to produce full malt character and extraction from your mash. Some folks (like myself) target varied mash pH against beer characteristics... such as 5.2/5.3 for tart/dry beers and 5.5/5.6 for very full malty beers.

I am a proponent of using software like Bru'n Water or Brewer's Friend to manage your salt additions and adjusting with acid to achieve your target mash pH, as well as the use of a quality, calibrated and stable pH meter to measure your mash pH (at roughly 30 minutes at room temps) to ensure you are on target. There are lots of tools - choose the ones that work for you and your brewing style.

Quite frankly - water management helps to push your recipe in one direction or another but doesn't solve poor recipe design. Solid and repeatable recipes, mash technique and proper hop utilization are required before water management provides the nuances you might be looking for. Malty beers require expressive and malty malt products, and hoppiness requires the right blend and application of hops.

Hello there,

You mentioned that sometimes you target the 5.2/5.3 range for some styles. I also noted where you made reference to measuring at room temperature (thank you for that, some people forget that detail). I'm just curious how those beers turn out for you. Rough calculations would suggest that a 5.2/5.3 at room temp would be mashing pHs of 4.85/4.95 and alpha and beta amy struggle at that level. I know dextrinase and some other enzymes work well at lower pHs but I haven't targeted them before.

Thanks!

 

[mchrispen]

Anecdotally - mashing lower should be better for pale beers, especially those with a tart finish. While I do Pale Ales or IPAs higher, that is to ensure hop utilization in the kettle and a slightly 'rougher' more aggressive hop character. Paired with some sulfate - the hops seem to pop more... For tart styles, specifically saisons, I feel I get that nice bite, and it seems to smooth out hop character. Of course, then the water is featuring chloride over sulfate. I also tend to mash much lower for saisons - in temperature, around 148F for 90 minutes to ensure a very fermentable wort.

Here's the thing - I do this based on trials I ran after hearing bits and pieces from other sources - not sure taking a single process out of this will give the right result. However, give it a try and see if you like it!

 

[ajdelange]

Anecdotally - mashing lower should be better for pale beers, especially those with a tart finish.

Anecdotal means 'un published' but, in fact, Kunze has some remarks on this. IIRC he says lagers should be mashed at slightly higher pH than ales.

 

[mchrispen]

Sorry, was using the Webster's "based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers". Making no claim of scientific basis. I have collected notes from various sources, including forums like this (which must be true because it is on the internet), which often disagree on this point. My biggest issue is that the qualification of 'good' in the glass is so subjective and preferential. I like my saisons better when mashed very low (5.2/5.3) and quite tangy in the glass, still working through my preference with various lager recipes. Really like my porters and stouts at 5.5/5.6 in the mash tun, but less experience brewing those.

For the record, never seen poor extraction issues mashing at 5.2, but again - the mash tends to be extended as they are also in the alpha ranges. In those instances, pH stabilized around 30-40 minutes, not early, so perhaps conversion was nearly complete early on in the higher pH ranges. With my mill setup for my RIMS system (coarse grist), I seem to get a high level of buffering early that drops slowly, despite the acid in the strike liquor with Pils heavy grists. I usually don't note gravity/brix when taking mash pH, but maybe I should.

AJ - does your grain-in start high and slowly drop or start low and rise to target? Without charting my notes - I seem to see the inverse with darker grist bills, even with the higher mash pH target. I guess time for me to do a few dozen congress mashes...

 

[ajdelange]

Sorry, was using the Webster's "based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers".

I knew exactly what you meant and was really just playing with words. The etymology is, from the OED, "Late 17th century: from French, or via modern Latin from Greek anekdota 'things unpublished', from an- 'not' + ekdotos, from ekdidōnai 'publish'." and I thought I'd bounce that off the fact that indeed, IIRC, Kunze had some published remarks on mash pH and beer type, presumbly based on the observations of usually scientific observers.

My biggest issue is that the qualification of 'good' in the glass is so subjective and preferential.

Aye, there's the rub.

AJ - does your grain-in start high and slowly drop or start low and rise to target? Without charting my notes - I seem to see the inverse with darker grist bills, even with the higher mash pH target. I guess time for me to do a few dozen congress mashes...

That depends. In doing a titration to get data for the malt proton deficit model one adds acid or base (diluted in mash water) to ground malt. In this case the added acid or base is already free in the water and so the pH electrode picks up its presence immediately and the pH plummets (acid) or soars (base). As the components of the grain get solvated and react whatever was in the water gets neutralized. For an acid addition, the pH climbs and for a basic one it drops over time.

The same happens in an actual mash to which acid or base is added in the mash liquor. If all the acid comes from sauermalz it has been my experience that this acts as if liquid acid has been added i.e. the initial pH is low and then climbs. I assume that this is because the lactic acid is on the surface of the malt and the protons are therefore released as soon as the stuff gets wet whereas the proton absorbers are buried in the matrix of the base malts. OTOH when I relied on the phosphate/calcium reaction for acidification (years ago) the converse was the case. The pH dropped over time and after each decoction. This is presumably because it takes some time for the reactions with phytin to take place.