Dissolving chalk?

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No science required. Empirical observation is more than enough to satisfy. Challenge it with a scientific design, by all means. It won't alter the fact it works. A prescribed amount of CaCO3 tossed into the mash, that is.
Right, I'm an empirical kinda fella. But given the fact I wouldn't know whether or not it "worked" if I toss the chalk in the mash water - other than the pH reading - and by the time I take the reading it's too late - and the fact I can *see* in my little jar of carbonated water whether or not the chalk has dissolved - that's what I think I want to do. Sorry for the excessive hyphenations....
 
Right, I'm an empirical kinda fella. But given the fact I wouldn't know whether or not it "worked" if I toss the chalk in the mash water - other than the pH reading - and by the time I take the reading it's too late - and the fact I can *see* in my little jar of carbonated water whether or not the chalk has dissolved - that's what I think I want to do. Sorry for the excessive hyphenations....
It's added to manage pH. I wanted you to know that. I think you need to understand that bit and take it onboard 🤫
 
It's added to manage pH. I wanted you to know that. I think you need to understand that bit and take it onboard 🤫
Right, thanks. But minerals are added to mashes to influence pH AND provide desirable substances, like calcium, no? I mean controlling pH is the easy part b/c you can adjust salts accordingly and in the end just squirt in the acid of your choice if you're still too high. My main concern, to re-state, is to add calcium and carbonate without including sulfate or chloride. In other words, If I dump in enough gypsum and/or CaCl2 get to my target levels of chloride vs. sulfate for the desired maltiness/hoppiness profile but I'm still short on the Ca or CO3 that I want, that's where the chalk comes in handy. Especially if I can be sure it dissolves ;)
 
There are lots of detailed discussions on this that get very technical but dissolving Chalk first requires the creation of carbonic acid by saturating the water with CO2. This is the natural process that allows rainwater drops to erode limestone. By bubbling large quantities of CO2 gas into water, or using carbonated water as others suggested, you can recreate this process and force dissolved Calcium carbonate. The problem is you have now created lots of Carbonate alkalinity which can make it harder to drop the pH of the mash if its too high. Great for very low alkalinity water and a dark beer, not so good if your water already has high alkalinity and you are making a lighter beer.

Adding slaked lime creates some dissolved calcium but only to a point. As the pH of the solution rises towards the 9-10 range, you will start precipitating out Calcium Carbonate. Now you have lost both the Calcium you need and the Carbonate you may want to keep your mash pH from dropping too much. This is the lime softening process used for water with too muck alkalinity, but it (almost) completely strips the water of Calcium so you end having to add it back with CaCl or Gypsum.

A comment was made earlier about a difference between tap and RO/DI in this process, which is true as the RO/DI should have little carbonate alkalinity but tap water can very substantially based on source. Adding slaked lime to RO/DI will add calcium but needs to countered with more acid in the mash for pH control.

I prefer to stick with additions of CaCl and Gypsum to get the Calcium up to target which is not typically more than 50-70ppm. I have not seen a need for much more than that and you can easily bump calcium and keep chloride and sulfate levels appropriate for style.

Happy Brewing!!
 
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Let me just throw in a wild guess......... if the chalk is used to get mash ph to a certain number, than it would not work if it would not be dissolved.

So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?

... must be the beer talking which I will have in one or two hours.
 
So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?
Don't get me wrong, I like the do what works approach. I brewed extract with 1 tablespoon of gypsum in the boil for years and it made good beer. Didn't know why, just kept doing what worked. In hindsight, I used local advice from someone that used local tap water to make IPAs, like me. That worked great for extract IPAs. When I tried to make non bitter beers, they sucked until I understood why I added gypsum and made some changes for those styles.

I could watch someone brew in red socks and produce an award winning beer, but I'd have a hard time convincing you all to buy red socks to make better beer. Not all observations are actually driving the outcome. It would be interesting to repeat the mash twice one with/one without, or take a pH before and after the chalk. Simply heating the water and the lowering the pH as you mash in the grains will increase the chalk solubility, but to a smaller extent.

If it makes good beer, it works. If you want to different or even better beer it does help to understand why it works.
 
It doesn't make any sense to me. It's not like malted grain binds calcium selectively. The only reason I can think for adding more than the calculated amount is if you're not acidic enough to dissolve it all, and in that case you're going to be pulling tannins out anyway so you have a different problem. Calcium is important for yeast health and growth. It helps to prevent the yeast from dehydrating, but too much will precipitate phosphate so you want to keep it under 100 ppm.
But one of you (Kai) actually did the science bull work. That which makes intuitive sense is of zero value here. Need I mention that one of my favorite sayings is that intuition makes for seriously bad science. People tried the religo/philosophical approach to science for millennia and it got them essentially nowhere.
 
Don't get me wrong, I like the do what works approach. I brewed extract with 1 tablespoon of gypsum in the boil for years and it made good beer. Didn't know why, just kept doing what worked. In hindsight, I used local advice from someone that used local tap water to make IPAs, like me. That worked great for extract IPAs. When I tried to make non bitter beers, they sucked until I understood why I added gypsum and made some changes for those styles.

I could watch someone brew in red socks and produce an award winning beer, but I'd have a hard time convincing you all to buy red socks to make better beer. Not all observations are actually driving the outcome. It would be interesting to repeat the mash twice one with/one without, or take a pH before and after the chalk. Simply heating the water and the lowering the pH as you mash in the grains will increase the chalk solubility, but to a smaller extent.

If it makes good beer, it works. If you want to different or even better beer it does help to understand why it works.
I assumed that the person doing this was measuring a ph that is way off without any additions of chalk. Otherwise the chalk wouldn't make any sense, so a with chalk and a without chalk measurement would be there.
 
Right, thanks. But minerals are added to mashes to influence pH AND provide desirable substances, like calcium, no? I mean controlling pH is the easy part b/c you can adjust salts accordingly and in the end just squirt in the acid of your choice if you're still too high. My main concern, to re-state, is to add calcium and carbonate without including sulfate or chloride. In other words, If I dump in enough gypsum and/or CaCl2 get to my target levels of chloride vs. sulfate for the desired maltiness/hoppiness profile but I'm still short on the Ca or CO3 that I want, that's where the chalk comes in handy. Especially if I can be sure it dissolves ;)
For carbonate, you can add baking soda. The small amount of sodium this adds will be below the taste threshold (and if it isn’t, I personally like a little more sodium in my dark beers, anyway.)

For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?
 
For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?
Following, would like to hear more. From a quick Google search it looks like calcium lactate is a product of the reaction between lactic acid and calcium carbonate. Could you add a measured amount of both to get both calcium and a pH drop in the mash?

Would lactate add any perceived flavors different from the lactic acid additions often used for pH control?
 
For carbonate, you can add baking soda. The small amount of sodium this adds will be below the taste threshold (and if it isn’t, I personally like a little more sodium in my dark beers, anyway.)

For calcium, I haven’t heard a good argument against calcium lactate. Can anyone weigh in?

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15041.0
The issue is accounting for the resulting lactate taste threshold.
 
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That seems to indicate that 400 ppm lactate is hard for most people to taste. Calcium lactate is about 18% calcium by mass, so you could add ~100 ppm calcium ... which is more than you should need, right?

British beers are often brewed with 150ppm+ of Calcium. The percentage of calcium added via specific salts would certainly be a matter of reason. The Jim's Beer kit forum has very fierce proponents of high calcium water.

Most is not all when it comes to taste.

I don't know of any water calculators that account for calcium lactate but perhaps some of the authors @Silver_Is_Money or @Martin Brungard would consider adding it.

There is no hard and fast validation for your goal. Why not try it for yourself and report back?
 
Just ordered 400 g for $15.

I’ve got a Bo Pils brew day planned in a week or so. I’d normally be low on calcium in order to keep chloride and sulfate low; I’ll try it with ~50 ppm of calcium from calcium lactate. Not as rigorous as a split batch with different water, I know, but if it comes out tasting good I’ll feel I’ve accomplished something.
 
Let me just throw in a wild guess......... if the chalk is used to get mash ph to a certain number, than it would not work if it would not be dissolved.

So call me crazy, but if you use it and happen to meassure the correct ph in your mash, wouldn't it simply mean that it worked? Compeltely without any CO2 and whatnot solving or not theory talk?

... must be the beer talking which I will have in one or two hours.
I'll get back now with my real-world experience. I dissolved the chalk in a small jar of carbonated water, which I made with my Sodastream. It immediately foamed up a bit, which I took as a good sign (chemical reaction?). I swirled it up a couple times, ending up with this white .... chalky .... liquid. It looked a lot more dissolved than the gypsum and CaCl sitting in the bottom of the mash pot, and we don't hear much at all about those not dissolving in a mash.
Here's the interesting part: the pH ended up a little high, at 5.5 .... I was aiming for 5.3-5.4. Not sure how it might have evaded the brewing software (I use brewer's friend), or maybe my pH meter needs to be recalibrated. At any rate, rampant potential inaccuracies notwithstanding, imma say "it worked."
 
In the latest Brulosophy Exbeeriment Gypsum was added to one American Pale Ale, doubling it's SO4 ppm, and not added to another otherwise identical American Pale Ale. Calcium of course went way up also for the beer that received the huge dose of Gypsum. Of 21 testers, only 4 claimed to be able to notice any difference. That's about as statistically definitive as it gets as to the irrelevance of adding a bunch of excess Gypsum.

The moral of the story is: Why torture yourself attempting to boost Calcium via Chalk addition(s), when you are not going to notice if it was done via the application of such torture, or via simply adding CaSO4 (or likely also CaCl2).

PS: I've been on record saying much the same thing for some time now. I.E., that the most likely event will be that you won't notice a difference.
 
AFAICT, Kai Troester designed and maintains the Brewers Friend mash pH adjustment software. Did he design it to reflect the poor solubility of Calcium Carbonate as per his research and compensate for it internally thereby. That would seem logical.
 
Just ordered 400 g for $15.

I’ve got a Bo Pils brew day planned in a week or so. I’d normally be low on calcium in order to keep chloride and sulfate low; I’ll try it with ~50 ppm of calcium from calcium lactate. Not as rigorous as a split batch with different water, I know, but if it comes out tasting good I’ll feel I’ve accomplished something.
What is you normal target for Ca for a Bohemian Pilsner? I have only made one and it came out really good at 12 ppm Ca. Was concerned about this very issue and opted to brew with low Ca. No problems.
 
In the latest Brulosophy Exbeeriment Gypsum was added to one American Pale Ale, doubling it's SO4 ppm, and not added to another otherwise identical American Pale Ale. Calcium of course went way up also for the beer that received the huge dose of Gypsum. Of 21 testers, only 4 claimed to be able to notice any difference. That's about as statistically definitive as it gets as to the irrelevance of adding a bunch of excess Gypsum.

The moral of the story is: Why torture yourself attempting to boost Calcium via Chalk addition(s), when you are not going to notice if it was done via the application of such torture, or via simply adding CaSO4 (or likely also CaCl2).

PS: I've been on record saying much the same thing for some time now. I.E., that the most likely event will be that you won't notice a difference.
Nice try brulosophy. I like the guys, seriously, but sometimes I wonder why it seems that they don't really think so many of their experiments through completely.

Here again, high sulphate checked against higher sulphate.... What's the purpose? Would have been much better to check low against high.

And then why post-fermentation? Who adds water salts post fermentation? Where's the value of checking it this way instead of pre-mash which would be how people are brewing?


Honestly, this tells me nothing.
 
AFAICT, Kai Troester designed and maintains the Brewers Friend mash pH adjustment software. Did he design it to reflect the poor solubility of Calcium Carbonate as per his research and compensate for it internally thereby. That would seem logical.
Aha! That would perhaps explain the higher-than-predicted mash pH, if in fact I was able to coax the Ca to dissolve? Usually the BF water predictions are very accurate.
 
On a geologic time scale, chalk is completely soluble. Unfortunately, none of us mash for millennia. So functionally, chalk is a useless addition in mashing chemistry since there is little acidity available to dissolve it in a reasonable time in ANY mash. To confirm that point, I can point to a major Indiana brewery with a very low alkalinity water supply that couldn't effectively reduce the pH drop on their Porter. They had been trying chalk in the mash for years, but their result was not satisfactory. They hired me to help them correct that beer and the answer was obvious after I found out that they were using chalk. I had them switch to pickling lime and the rest is history. After GABF and WBC medals, I'd say it was a success.

For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.

Regarding calcium lactate supplements, that could be an alternative for adding calcium to your wort. But I have to ask why would a brewer want to use it??? For those commercial supplements, they have a variety of fillers that you might not want in your beer. I can't recommend their use. Fortunately for Bru'n Water users, its easy to formulate your own calcium lactate addition by plugging in a dose of chalk into the program along with a lactic acid dose. Bru'n Water reports the alkalinity dose of the chalk as a positive HCO3 concentration. You then figure out the proper amount of lactic acid by adding a dose that results in a negative HCO3 concentration equal to the chalk's concentration. Mix those two components together and let them react before adding to the mashing water. There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

For those of you that want to create a natural chalk solution, add chalk and a low alkalinity water to a pressurizable container and add CO2 pressure. After shaking and letting it come to equilibrium for a few days, you'll have a dissolved chalk solution. It's a pain in the a$$, but its possible. Personally, I recommend other ways to add the alkalinity that you're needing. They're easier!
 
There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

What effect are you referring to that is mimicked?
 
On a geologic time scale, chalk is completely soluble. Unfortunately, none of us mash for millennia. So functionally, chalk is a useless addition in mashing chemistry since there is little acidity available to dissolve it in a reasonable time in ANY mash. To confirm that point, I can point to a major Indiana brewery with a very low alkalinity water supply that couldn't effectively reduce the pH drop on their Porter. They had been trying chalk in the mash for years, but their result was not satisfactory. They hired me to help them correct that beer and the answer was obvious after I found out that they were using chalk. I had them switch to pickling lime and the rest is history. After GABF and WBC medals, I'd say it was a success.

For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.

Regarding calcium lactate supplements, that could be an alternative for adding calcium to your wort. But I have to ask why would a brewer want to use it??? For those commercial supplements, they have a variety of fillers that you might not want in your beer. I can't recommend their use. Fortunately for Bru'n Water users, its easy to formulate your own calcium lactate addition by plugging in a dose of chalk into the program along with a lactic acid dose. Bru'n Water reports the alkalinity dose of the chalk as a positive HCO3 concentration. You then figure out the proper amount of lactic acid by adding a dose that results in a negative HCO3 concentration equal to the chalk's concentration. Mix those two components together and let them react before adding to the mashing water. There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

For those of you that want to create a natural chalk solution, add chalk and a low alkalinity water to a pressurizable container and add CO2 pressure. After shaking and letting it come to equilibrium for a few days, you'll have a dissolved chalk solution. It's a pain in the a$$, but its possible. Personally, I recommend other ways to add the alkalinity that you're needing. They're easier!
I ordered pure calcium lactate, food grade, sold to people who want to try spherification at home. (Amazon has everything, doesn't it?)

As to why a brewer would want to use it, Palmer (in Water) says, "Calcium is the friend of all brewers who brew with alkaline water. The reaction with malt phosphates is one of the primary mechanisms for the mash pH drop. It is remarkably flavorless. It protects, stabilizes, and promotes enzyme activity in the mash. It aids in protein coagulation, trub formation, oxalate precipitation, yeast metabolism, and yeast flocculation. The calcium levels in the water need to be high enough to carry sufficient levels through the boil and fermentation. A range of 50-200 ppm in the water for the mash is recommended."

Generally, getting 50 ppm is no problem, except for the times I'm targeting low concentrations of both chloride and sulfate. It's these cases where I (and I think the OP) am wondering whether calcium lactate might be useful. Hence the Bo Pils plan, though now I'm wondering: Is the "soft" taste of the style due to low chloride and sulfate, or is it actually low calcium levels directly? (Googling gives me numbers of 40-1000+ ppm for the calcium taste threshold.)
 
For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.
I'll answer the second part first. I have an MW-102 which I calibrate periodically and also on the rare occasion that the measurement is far off from the hypothesized value, though I cannot recall recalibration ever dramatically changing the measurement (>0.05).

I have a supporting anecdote for chalk affecting the mash pH. I'm not sure I'd call it "proof", but an observation that I have been able to explain only by chalk having an impact.

I have water with high temporary alkalinity (~80mg/L Ca, 320mg/L HCO3), so I pre-boil it for light beers. At some point I read that adding chalk when boiling adds nucleation sites, and causes more CaCO3 to drop out, so I did that, and indeed the post-boil TDS reading was something like 10% lower. Without added chalk the water clears in maybe 1h, while with added chalk it takes something like 12h (and if someone can explain what the difference is due to, please). Since I often boil the same day, the first time I did it I proceeded anyway without waiting for the water to clear, and decanted the cloudy water when there was the usual layer at the bottom of the kettle. The resulting pH was as expected (yes, yes, keep reading ;-). However, in the next brews doing the same with cloudy water my mash pH was through the roof. After significant head-scratching I pinpointed the differences as a) the first beer was higher gravity than usual b) I switched from acidulated malt to lactic acid after the first. Playing around in Bru'n Water, I recall discovering that acidulated malt is not accounted for as 3% lactic acid, but uses some other formula, which led the high-gravity beer to being acidified proportionally more, and therefore cancelling the chalk still in suspension. In subsequent brews, when I waited for the water to completely clear before decanting, the Bru'n Water predictions started nearing the measured values with lactic acid. So, I concluded that the chalk in suspension does have an impact on pH.

To double-check if my conclusion was correct, I prepared water samples mimicking the cloudy/clear boiled waters as described above, and titrated. Indeed it takes more acid to drop the cloudy one (my notes from a few years ago are probably in some stratum on my desk, and if putting a number on "more" is important, I can try to dig them out).

Now, granted, that's an anecdote about chalk I wanted to remove affecting the mash pH, not added chalk affecting it. I am *not* implying that other observations from adding chalk are inaccurate. The only difference I can imagine is the boiling. Maybe the boiling physically "unclumps" the chalk so that it's extremely fine-grained in suspension? (completely thinking out loud there)

In any case, everyone [with a pH meter] can try titration to see if chalk has an effect. If it doesn't, try boiling the water with the chalk to see if it makes a difference -- I did not test adding chalk to water without boiling the water, as I was working in the confines of what was relevant to me. If even that doesn't make an observable difference, and there is no water with high temporary alkalinity available, one could dissolve chalk into carbonated water as you suggested, and boil that, and repeat the titration, to minimize the different variables in the experiments.

Also, in the riddle-me-this department, if undissolved chalk doesn't affect the pH, why decant at all after boiling? Every text I've come across for removing temporary alkalinity by boiling is boil-wait-decant.

Finally, on a mildly related tangent, I also tried gypsum for nucleation sites to drop CaCO3 out, since gypsum is supposed to have poor solubility at high temperatures, but it did not drop the TDS reading -- accounting for the extra TDS from gypsum -- so I guess it's "soluble enough".
 
Bo Pils brewday was yesterday. I treated 4 gallons of RO with 0.5 g CaSO4, 0.5 g NaCl, 0.35 g CaCl2, 3.5 g calcium lactate, and 10 mL 10% phosphoric. I didn't do a taste comparison on the water with and without the lactate, but the taste of the water was neutral and pleasant.

Grist was 4.5 lbs. of Pilsner malt, mashed with all the water (BIAB). pH after ~30 minutes was 5.0. This is substantially lower than my last light beer (a Helles) which used a pretty similar water profile and the same acid addition, without the calcium lactate, and came in at 5.4. Maybe the higher calcium levels are to blame (credit) for this?
 
I didn't mean chalk at all though. I goofed. I'll fix it - meant to type "Calcium Chloride is Ca and Cl2".

My intent was to give other, more commonly used, dissolvable options, in case they've been overlooked.
No it it is Ca++ and 2 Cl- (imagine the pluses and minuses are superscripted)
 
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