What is the best all-around salt additions for Distilled water

[Christoff]

I just got my water report back from Ward's lab and I'm a bit surprised it has changed as much as it has. I'm on a well and I knew it would, but it was still a bit surprising. We even have an iron filter. I am a bit disappointed as I really didn't want to have to buy water for beer. Adjusting salts, sure, but I brew too often to want to buy water. None the less, I think I am going to start using distilled water and just eliminate any possibly the water is causing my issues. I'm relatively new so I want to tackle independent things slowly, one issue at a time, so I am looking at the best water additions. A happy middle ground for all beer styles that I can just get used to adding and expand upon for specific beer styles after getting familiar with it. I also do not like super hoppy beers, I like my beer to taste like malt, but don't want to be drinking syrup either (I really dislike Imperial stouts for instance).


Do I understand distilled water correctly in that it is a clean slate and has been stripped of its mineral content? Distilled water essentially starts at zero's across the board and 7 pH?

What are your suggestions for salt additions? Is there a mix that I can purchase that just has a bit of everything so I just add the one?

Is adding the middle of the recommended amounts for all salt additions (in Palmer's book) a good starting point?

I have attached my profile if anyone is curious.

Side note: If you've read my other post(s), this may answer some of the issues re: sweetness and the weird after taste I can't shake?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think I am going to start using distilled water and just eliminate any possibly the water is causing my issues. I'm relatively new so I want to tackle independent things slowly, one issue at a time, so I am looking at the best water additions. A happy middle ground for all beer styles that I can just get used to adding and expand upon for specific beer styles after getting familiar with it.

As a starting point, take look at Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For each 5 gallons of your Ward Labs tested water (both for mash and sparge) I would add:

1.80 grams of Gypsum
1.50 grams of fresh/anhydrous Calcium Chloride (or 2 grams of the dihydride form)
4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, or 43 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid

 

[Christoff]

For each 5 gallons of your water (both for mash and sparge) I would add:

1.80 grams of Gypsum
1.50 grams of fresh/anhydrous Calcium Chloride
4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid

Thanks! Does acidulated malt work instead of lactic acid? I think I have read 1%? Does calcium chloride add to the hardness ppm or am I getting that confused with calcium sulfate?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks! Does acidulated malt work instead of lactic acid? I think I have read 1%? Does calcium chloride add to the hardness ppm or am I getting that confused with calcium sulfate?

1) 1.25 ounces of Acid Malt ~= 1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, but Acidulated is only usable within the mash. You will still need to acidify your sparge water whereby to reduce its alkalinity.
2) Both CaCl and CaSO4 add to the waters hardness.

 

[Christoff]

1) 1.25 ounces of Acid Malt ~= 1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, but Acidulated is only usable within the mash. You will still need to acidify your sparge water whereby to reduce its alkalinity.
2) Both CaCl and CaSO4 add to the waters hardness.

Will the inclusion of Gypsum and CaCl / CaSO4 bring it above recommended? I only ask because Palmer's book how to brew suggests no higher than 100 ppm alkilinity, no more than 120 in darker beers but the salts I picked up, gypsum and epsom, would bring it to over 250 if I added 1g/gal each. This is part of the reason for this post so I appreciate the input. Figuring out what works for most people will help with my tinkering.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is no such thing as "recommended" mineralization in my book. But then I don't sell books. I think about mineral profiles rather a lot like I think of voodoo or magic or snake oil.

After the acid addition your water will have about 16 mg/L (nominal ppm) of remaining Alkalinity.

 

[Christoff]

There is no such thing as "recommended" mineralization in my book. But then I don't sell books. I think about mineral profiles rather a lot like I think of voodoo or magic or snake oil.

After the acid addition your water will have about 16 mg/L (nominal ppm) of remaining Alkalinity.

Hah best piece of advice I’ve had all day lol

 

[CascadesBrewer]

For each 5 gallons of your water (both for mash and sparge) I would add:

1.80 grams of Gypsum
1.50 grams of fresh/anhydrous Calcium Chloride (or 2 grams of the dihydride form)
4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, or 43 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid

I might have asked this before, but what is the opinion on adding Magnesium or Sodium when brewing with RO or distilled water?

I generally brew with my tap water which has a baseline amount of both. If I wanted to brew a batch with RO, should I add some? If somebody is brewing with RO, should I recommend they add a little Epsom Salt and/or Table Salt? If I want to publish a recipe, should I include some adjustments for Magnesium or Sodium levels?

 

[BAF]

Beer style plays a role in deciding water profile adjustments, namely your chloride to sulfate ratio. But if you think that's snake oil, then might as well just buy spring water and use that rather than adjusting distilled water.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Will the inclusion of Gypsum and CaCl / CaSO4 bring it above recommended? I only ask because Palmer's book how to brew suggests no higher than 100 ppm alkilinity, no more than 120 in darker beers but the salts I picked up, gypsum and epsom, would bring it to over 250 if I added 1g/gal each. This is part of the reason for this post so I appreciate the input. Figuring out what works for most people will help with my tinkering.

I am trying to parse your response. What is the "it" in "bring it above recommended"? Hardness? Calcium? You then mention "100 ppm alkalinity", and I am not sure where that fits in. As far as "if I added 1g/gal each"...the values from @Silver_Is_Money are amounts to add to 5 gallons of water, not to each gallon. So divide those by 5 to get a per gallon amount. From what I see, that would get you right around 50 ppm each of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride. That seems like a decent starting place for a generic water profile.

 

[Christoff]

I am trying to parse your response. What is the "it" in "bring it above recommended"? Hardness? Calcium? You then mention "100 ppm alkalinity", and I am not sure where that fits in. As far as "if I added 1g/gal each"...the values from @Silver_Is_Money are amounts to add to 5 gallons of water, not to each gallon. So divide those by 5 to get a per gallon amount. From what I see, that would get you right around 50 ppm each of Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride. That seems like a decent starting place for a generic water profile.

“It” would be the recommended amounts of alkalinity . I’m guessing I either missed the 5 gal / was stuck on everything I was reading using g/gal calculations or something I read about calcium chloride suggests alkalinity would be brought up too high.thanks for pointing out the 5 gal part I missed.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

“It” would be the recommended amounts of alkalinity

Alkalinity can be a confusing topic and not one I will claim to be an expert on. Page 337 of the 4th edition of "How to Brew" has a brief overview. Note that he talks about Carbonates and notes that Bicarbonate is the predominate form in potable water.

Adding Gypsum or Calcium Chloride does not add Carbonates/Bicarbonate.

Palmer puts a lot of emphasis on "Residual Alkalinity." The level of Calcium does have a minor impact on mash pH and it does factor in the Residual Alkalinity calculation. I don't personally give any direct attention to Residual Alkalinity.

My personal approach to adjusting my tap water (which has a low-medium level of minerals) is:

• Enter my recipe into brewing software.
• Add amounts of Gypsum and/or Calcium Chloride to get my Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride values into a target range.
• Use the software to predict how much Acid I need to lower my mash pH (or for dark beers, I might need to add some Bicarbonate to raise the mash pH).

Are you using brewing software or water chemistry software? Bru'nWater and Mash Made Easy are two spreadsheet based tools that I have used with good results. Most of the popular brewing software packages also have water chemistry modules with decent pH prediction models. I just use BeerSmith these days.

Is there a good generic model that can be used to target mash pH without using software? I am not sure. There are a couple recipe and process related factors that impact mash pH. A recipe with high percentages of Crystal and Roasted Grains will have a much lower pH than one with just light colored based malts.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Adding to the above...

We can generalize that there are two 'main' brewing categories (or methodologies).
Category 1) Mash and Sparge (wherein ~60% of total brewing water typically goes into the mash, and ~40% is used to sparge)
Category 2) No sparge. (wherein the mash takes place within 100% of the calculated overall brewing water)

Brewing books that suggest silly guidelines such as to use 100 ppm Alkalinity water for beers such as Porters and Stouts (and their ilk) almost invariably fail to mention that this (generally poor, but perhaps efficacious by pure luck) advice is only suited to category 1 style brewing.

1st and foremost I must express my opinion that ppm (mg/L) as the standard for the quantification of mineralization is the saddest hold over from brewing days of yore to still exist within this modern era of brewing. Minerals should factually be quantified as to their mEq's/L and (more critically) their outright mEq's.

And here is why:
Let's presume we are brewing a recipe that requires 34 Liters of water for combined mash and sparge.
Let's further presume (per water analysis) that our water has 100 ppm (mg/L) of Alkalinity (as CaCO3).
Let's presume that book advice says that we should use 100 ppm Alkalinity water for Stouts and Porters.
Let's presume we are brewing a Stout or a Porter.

Because CaCO3 has a MW (when ignoring isotopes) of 100 grams/mol, and Ca++ is plus 2 in charge, CaCO3 has an EQ_Wt. (equivalent weight) of 50 grams/EQ, or 50 mg/mEq.

For category 1 brewing we will be using 60% of 34 Liters within the mash, or 20.4 Liters.
For category 2 brewing we will be using all 34 liters within the mash.

100 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity ÷ 50 mg/mEq = 2 mEq/L of Alkalinity (as CaCO3)

For category 1 brewing we therefore have: 20.4L water x 2 mEq/L Alkalinity = 40.8 mEq's of Alkalinity
For category 2 brewing we therefore have 34L water x 2 mEq/L Alkalinity = 68 mEq's of Alkalinity

The consequence of this huge difference in Alkalinity mEq's is that if for the case of category 1 brewing our 100 ppm Alkalinity water wildly lucks out and brings our Porter or Stout (like) mash to a room temperature measured pH of 5.40, when we switch to brewing via the no-sparge category 2 method our mash pH will be on the order of 5.55. But if however we failed to totally luck out and achieve 5.40 mash pH for the case of category 1 brewing, and instead hit pH 5.60 (which is just marginally acceptable), then if we switch to category 2 style brewing our mash pH will be on the order of 5.75 (which is high and not acceptable).

 

[Red over White]

For each 5 gallons of your Ward Labs tested water (both for mash and sparge) I would add:

1.80 grams of Gypsum
1.50 grams of fresh/anhydrous Calcium Chloride (or 2 grams of the dihydride form)
4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, or 43 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid

This is some solid advice for a balanced profile that you can make a variety of styles with. Filter it a slow as you can handle and get brewing. Here's what that profile looks like with a mash pH of 5.53. I brew many classic style lagers and ales with a very similar profile.

 

[BeerAndTele]

My 2 cents, FWIW:

I used distilled water as a starting point because my tap water is "moderately hard" and changes throughout the year. I often brew lighter beers so I wanted a softer starting point.

A calculator is a must. I prefer Brewer's Friend because it's integrated with their recipe builder, but there are a bunch of good ones.

I add CaCl and Gypsum to reach a balanced profile. I've experimented with higher mineralization but found less is more for my palate and the type of beers I enjoy. YMMV. CaCl and Gypsum also serve to lower your mash pH (I add them to the strike water), and I then use acidulated malt to bring the pH down into the 5.3-5.4 range. I don't brew dark beers so I've not had the need to raise pH.

I don't acidify my sparge water (I do a BIAB dunk sparge) because my sparge water is also distilled and therefore has no alkalinity; as a result, changes to the overall pH are not significant.

I do add table salt because Na is a flavor enhancer, so I'm a believer that some Na is beneficial. Just know that you're also adding Cl at the same time; your calculator will tell you how much you're adding per gram (or tsp) of NaCl.

I don't add Epsom salt because John Palmer (and others who know more than I do) say that your malt brings all the needed Mg to the party so you're fine without it. I also don't have a need to add additional sulfate because my gypsum additions get me where I want to be (balanced profile, see above).

Hope this helps. Cheers.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

a balanced profile that you can make a variety of styles with

What styles is it good for? what would one do for those other styles?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Brulosophy has shown several times now that blind testers can't generally tell one mineral profile from another, until extremes occur (at least). And (say what you will) I believe their findings to reflect reality. This said, please do not turn this into another of the hundreds of Brulosophy bashing threads.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I won't bash them in this thread - even while words and phrases like silly (, snake oil, ...) are used to disparage other processes and techniques.

 

[Red over White]

What styles is it good for? what would one do for those other styles?

I use it for classic North American and Continental lagers and ales under 20 SRM. For a new brewer I would suggest keeping a balanced baseline water profile and learn the ingredients first. To many moving parts every batch is very tough to gain working knowledge of what just happened.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I use it for classic North American and Continental lagers and ales under 20 SRM.

Thanks!

For a new brewer I would suggest keeping a balanced baseline water profile and learn the ingredients first. To many moving parts every batch is very tough to gain working knowledge of what just happened.

Agreed - Having a single adjustment (or a small number of adjustments based on SRM) can simplify (and perhaps error proof) the brew day.

 

[Christoff]

Alkalinity can be a confusing topic and not one I will claim to be an expert on. Page 337 of the 4th edition of "How to Brew" has a brief overview. Note that he talks about Carbonates and notes that Bicarbonate is the predominate form in potable water.

Adding Gypsum or Calcium Chloride does not add Carbonates/Bicarbonate.

Palmer puts a lot of emphasis on "Residual Alkalinity." The level of Calcium does have a minor impact on mash pH and it does factor in the Residual Alkalinity calculation. I don't personally give any direct attention to Residual Alkalinity.

My personal approach to adjusting my tap water (which has a low-medium level of minerals) is:

• Enter my recipe into brewing software.
• Add amounts of Gypsum and/or Calcium Chloride to get my Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride values into a target range.
• Use the software to predict how much Acid I need to lower my mash pH (or for dark beers, I might need to add some Bicarbonate to raise the mash pH).

Are you using brewing software or water chemistry software? Bru'nWater and Mash Made Easy are two spreadsheet based tools that I have used with good results. Most of the popular brewing software packages also have water chemistry modules with decent pH prediction models. I just use BeerSmith these days.

Is there a good generic model that can be used to target mash pH without using software? I am not sure. There are a couple recipe and process related factors that impact mash pH. A recipe with high percentages of Crystal and Roasted Grains will have a much lower pH than one with just light colored based malts.

Thanks a lot. I find Palmer's book a little confusing when he gets into the more in depth explanations so I have concentrated on the table on pg 134. Some google searches suggested that hardness was impacted with some salt additions. I'm glad to hear I can stop thinking hard about that.

I have only just begun using software as I try to get my own processes going. Up until my water report came back I wasn't too worried about my tap water because my previous report from a few years ago suggested most things were in the average range. So now I am tackling this issue. I haven't used the water software yet. I did buy a bag of gypsum and epsum at the recommendation of my LHBS, but maybe should get Calcium chloride too. I have a few of my recipes in brewfather, but I am still figuring that site out too.

 

[jdauria]

I use distilled water for all my beers (tap his kind of hard with high sodium and chloride), what to add really depends on what you are brewing Making a porter, you want a malty water profile, so more Calcium Chloride, making a hoppy Pils, more gypsum. I use Bru'n Water spreadsheet to calculate my additions, usually using his "color" water profiles instead of his "city" ones. For example, amber balanced, yellow full = maltier), black dry (=hoppier).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I won't bash them in this thread - even while words and phrases like silly (, snake oil, ...) are used to disparage other processes and techniques.

Brulosophy has (time and time again) verified by undertaking actual triangle taste tests that much of what we are being taught by what are effectively home brewers who have gone upscale is indeed snake oil. I prefer to read many decades old papers written by real brewing scientists of yore who worked for actual breweries which predate home brewing and modern era microbreweries, and who functioned within the confines of actual laboratories.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thanks a lot. I find Palmer's book a little confusing when he gets into the more in depth explanations so I have concentrated on the table on pg 134. Some google searches suggested that hardness was impacted with some salt additions. I'm glad to hear I can stop thinking hard about that.

There are a lot of terms related to water chemistry that can be confusing. It took me several batches of adjusting my water and often reading through the same article many times for the basics to start to seep in. On a technical level, hardness is the amount of Calcium and Magnesium in your water. We often think of water with a high level of other minerals as "hard", and if your water has a lot of other minerals/ions, it may also have a lot of Calcium. You will often see ground water that has a high level of Calcium Carbonate (Chalk). That water will be both hard (from the Calcium) and have a lot of alkalinity (from the Carbonate).

So adding salts with Calcium in them like Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) and Calcium Chloride does impact the hardness of your water, but not as much the Alkalinity.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

As far as Brulosophy goes, I would point out that about half of their experiments on Water Chemistry came back as significant. Marshal has said many times that water mineral adjustments are one of the biggest impacts areas that he has found across the experiments. I believe he is less concerned about pH adjustments.

Just search for Water Chemistry and sort by p-value. exBEERiments

 

[Christoff]

There are a lot of terms related to water chemistry that can be confusing. It took me several batches of adjusting my water and often reading through the same article many times for the basics to start to seep in. On a technical level, hardness is the amount of Calcium and Magnesium in your water. We often think of water with a high level of other minerals as "hard", and if your water has a lot of other minerals/ions, it may also have a lot of Calcium. You will often see ground water that has a high level of Calcium Carbonate (Chalk). That water will be both hard (from the Calcium) and have a lot of alkalinity (from the Carbonate).

So adding salts with Calcium in them like Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) and Calcium Chloride does impact the hardness of your water, but not as much the Alkalinity.

That's the point I am at. Doing something several times and referring back to the writing on a regular basis. Slowly the stuff is sinking in, but there is also a lot of subjective or contradictory information that either confuses me or makes me doubt what I thought to be accurate for my brewing. I am currently trying to narrow down a particular after taste, and this hardness idea sounds like it may be contributing. But then I start crunching numbers and it throws a wrench in what I thought to be true. This idea of residual mineral content or salt additions to wort is making what I thought was simpler, more complicated lol

 

[VikeMan]

I might have asked this before, but what is the opinion on adding Magnesium or Sodium when brewing with RO or distilled water?

I never add magnesium to distilled water. I did for a couple of batches many years ago. But it's not necessary or even desirable IMO. I do pay attention to calcium levels however.

I often add sodium when I'm brewing a style that I think would benefit, usually porters/stouts. It can enhance chocolatey flavors.

 

[Yooper]

I never add magnesium to distilled water. I did for a couple of batches many years ago. But it's not necessary or even desirable IMO. I do pay attention to calcium levels however.

I often add sodium when I'm brewing a style that I think would benefit, usually porters/stouts. It can enhance chocolatey flavors.

I never use magnesium either. Well “never” is pretty strong I guess, as I believe I added some MgSO4 to a hoppy double IPA water that was already high in calcium, and I wanted a tiny bit more sulfate. This was probably in about 2010 or so, though. Even with the addition, I’m certain the Mg was under 20 ppm. My memory is not great, but I do remember using some epsom salts once, and believe that was the time. In any case, it’s never necessary but can be a tool in our shed I guess. Some IPA brewers do use it to increase sulfate. I do know of one guy who uses magnesium chloride to increase chloride in some beers, but I”ve used calcium chloride or sodium chloride for that.

Speaking of sodium, I rarely use it but as @VikeMan said, it can provide some benefits in some beers. I add CaCl2, calcium chloride for a fullness, or ‘roundness’ of flavors, but sodium chloride is great for that as well as enhancing the roast/chocolate too.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Wonder Bread has salt in it. A food product need not be dark and roasty for a little sodium to bring out its flavors, however subtle they are.

 

[Red over White]

Once you get a handle on your base malt and what it contributes, you can play with Mg & Na. With my water and Barke pils I can't detect Na until the strike water has 80ppm. In concert with what the malt natively brings it has to be well over 100ppm and it's not unpleasant. I can detect it, but my freeloading customers don't until I point it out. Then with heightened awareness syndrome they are suddenly BJCP judges lol

I have no idea how perceptible 80ppm Na in the strike water with Rahr, Mecca Grade or any other pils malt would be though. Some findings seem to think that the water used during malting contributes to minerals carried through to the glass, seems plausible. Small incremental adjustments with your regular water & grist may help you find out how far you can push Mg & Na, it did for me.

 

[mabrungard]

Distilled or RO water can be helpful in brewing, if your tap water is a train wreck. But including some ionic content to those waters is helpful in improving beer flavor. As mentioned, some combination of gypsum and calcium chloride is the easiest approach to mineralizing the water. Adding enough to bring the calcium content to around 50 ppm to maybe 100 ppm is a good target range. Adding some measure of both tends to produce a better result than all of one and none of the other.

That is a simple approach to mineralization, but even the low alkalinity in RO or distilled water can be too much for brewing pale beers. Some additional acid can be required. Same thing can be said if you're brewing a dark beer. Then more alkalinity is needed or a dark beer can be too acrid and acidic.

 

[mac_1103]

That is a simple approach to mineralization, but even the low alkalinity in RO or distilled water can be too much for brewing pale beers. Some additional acid can be required. Same thing can be said if you're brewing a dark beer. Then more alkalinity is needed or a dark beer can be too acrid and acidic.

Wouldn't that be saying the opposite thing.

 

[bwible]

Brulosophy has shown several times now that blind testers can't generally tell one mineral profile from another, until extremes occur (at least). And (say what you will) I believe their findings to reflect reality. This said, please do not turn this into another of the hundreds of Brulosophy bashing threads.

So the big problem I see with this water is it has basically nothing for either Sulfate or Chloride. It also has low calcium and much lower sodium than my 2 reports from Ward show.

As far as the minerals, it looks like it is just a matter of bumping up the sulfate and chloride to desired levels. Alkalinity in the thing I don’t have a clue about.

I’ve taken advice from Martin in another thread about keeping sulfate and chloride both low, around 30-40 each for lagers and gotten very good results doing that. For pale ales you want higher sulfate, right? Some threads are saying 150-200 sulfate for British ales.

So would there really not be a noticeable difference between batches brewed with 40 each sulfate and chloride and something like 175 sulfate and 80 chloride?

I’m new ish to this water adjustment stuff myself - I know Silver Is Money and Martin have alot more knowlege on this topic.