Hot side oxygen

[scogan]

Whats current practical advice for reducing oxygen at mashing.I know nothing about it ,always thought yeast was grateful for whatever oxygen the wort carried in .I do Neipas using biab,and use 1g/gal of ascorbic acid as my acidifier.

 

[Jag75]

Not sure I understand what your aiming for here. A lot of brewers recirc during the mash. I've never gave it any thought really. Once your wort is cool that's when you should be aware of o2. That's just my opinion though.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Check out this subforum.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forums/low-oxygen-brewing.282/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Whats current practical advice for reducing oxygen at mashing.

Check the recent recipe topics and recent posts in the long running NEIPA topics. There are a couple of brewers there who are posting recipes with the reduced oxygen techniques that they are currently using.

 

[beersk]

Well, if you're aiming for low oxygen wort, brew in a bag is not the method to use. Once you pull the bag out, all that liquid cascades back into the kettle oxygenating the wort. No bueno, amigo. But I'd say it's not something you need to worry yourself too much over. In my opinion, having been a low o2 brewer since summer of 2016, it does make a difference. But, whether it makes a difference you can appreciate? That is the question that every brewer has to answer for themselves. All the dogmatic BS that many low o2 brewers throw at you doesn't take that into account.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree, it is up to the brewer to have the desire to pursue.

To answer your question, keeping O2 away from the mash is down by deoxygenating your strike water, adding that water to the grain from below (underletting), using a mash cap with an under the liquid return and in your case, slowly lifting the bag as to eliminate splashing.

Another point to consider is that the oxygen spoken about in the mash has nothing to do with yeast. Yeast come in after the boil & chilling. Oxygen leaves water at boiling temps. So all O2 is removed during your boil. Reducing O2 during the mash is about trying to retain malt flavors that interact with oxygen and go away.

I made a video comparing some different processes with low oxygen brewing if you would like to learn some more.

I had all four of these beers on tap, so it was a good comparison to see how the different process' affected flavor. To Beersk's point, it is subjective if the outcome is worth the effort. I think it is as you can improve your system and the gap gets wider.

 

[MaxStout]

I do BIAB, and as @beersk mentioned, the process tends to add O2 on the hot side. You could look into adding the LODO "trifecta" of Brewtan B, ascorbic acid and sodium metabisulfite to the mash. This scavenges some of the dissolved O2. I've had good luck doing that and have noticed my beers having better shelf life.

 

[RM-MN]

have noticed my beers having better shelf life.

The biggest problem I have with shelf life is the brewer who just can't keep his hands off the beer. I suspect that for most beers there isn't enough difference for most of us to notice, especially after the second or third beer. It may be a factor in IPA's but even then I wonder if the bottling process isn't the way that oxygen gets into the beer.

 

[hottpeper13]

Max hit it on the head,it's all about shelf life. i put 1/4 tps of brew-tan B in the mash and call it good.
Don't be taken in by the LODO,in order to be LODO you need to start at the mill by CO2 injection or wet milling,then you are LODO.
I practice low O2 hot side by not moving too fast at any stage. I do cereal and decoction mashes and most times it splashes some. I have brews 1 year old that are still good,crisp and clean(Kolsch and lagers). I don't worry too much on IPA's because they're gone in less then 6 months.or less.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"embrace (practical reduced oxygen techniques),​

extend (to include additional techniques that reduce staling /1/, /2/),​

extinguish (never have to mention those dogmatic topics again)"​

/1/ store the beer cold,​

/2/ other ideas from beer science-y books (e.g. The New IPA)​

/3/ ...​

 

[beersk]

Great video @Bassman2003, really interesting to see the differences side-by-side. I quit doing the preboil years ago, it's such a pain. I don't have the ability to chill-in-place; I have to carry the kettle to the laundry room, chill, carry back to the kitchen. YOS is the way to go for me.

The acrid bitterness you are getting is a malt bitterness. I taste it in a lot of commercial beers and some of my own (when I don't do low o2 processes) and sometimes I don't taste it when I do high splash (my joking name for non-low o2 brewing) processes. Over the years I've gone through several existential crises with low o2 which is why I take a neutral stance towards it, ie not being dogmatic about it.

What kind of brewhouse efficiency do you get on the Anvil Foundry with the .038 mill gap? As it is, I get about 60-65% which is pretty shite. If I'm brewing a larger batch and sparging, I get a 5% boost. My mill gap is pretty narrow, like a credit card width. And always condition the grain, which I noticed you didn't mention in your video.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. Glad you liked it. I have my Beersmith profile set to about 66-67%. I do not care about the BHE. Actually, one could argue you are getting the best the malt has to offer with so much of it around. I am around 11 pounds of grain for a 12-13 plato beer.

Low oxygen has been a great journey for my brewing. I see and experience the benefits. The wort tastes brighter. The beers are better overall. But it was a long road so far. Many are not that interested in going down that rabbit hole. I enjoy it. I totally agree about leading with the idea that low oxygen brewing is not for everybody and no judgement should every be involved. The only thing the crowd hates is folks who have not studied the texts or tried it long enough to do it well saying (making a negative assumption) that is is bunk and should be avoided. That is judgement in reverse.

I have updated my system since that video. I plan on doing a full overview of my system, hot & cold as well as making full brew day videos. Making the videos seems to help folks just see what is going on. Helps demystify everything and gives confidence to try new things.

 

[NSMikeD]

Another point to consider is that the oxygen spoken about in the mash has nothing to do with yeast. Yeast come in after the boil & chilling. Oxygen leaves water at boiling temps. So all O2 is removed during your boil. Reducing O2 during the mash is about trying to retain malt flavors that interact with oxygen and go away.

Thanks for posting this. I always scratched my head at the notion of getting O2 out of the mash, since the boil does this and we add O2 into the wort for fermenting.

 

[Red over White]

It's good to work backwards into low oxygen brewing. When the cold side and packaging side are ship shape, its easier to detect the hot side advances.

 

[beersk]

It's good to work backwards into low oxygen brewing. When the cold side and packaging side are ship shape, its easier to detect the hot side advances.

Yes, absolutely. I'd argue that that is really the more important of the two sides. While, if you read Kunze, which I do from time to time, he'll stress that oxygen should be mitigated from ALL parts of the brew process. The mill? Seriously? Yeah, I don't think so. So if you want to argue that that will make an appreciable difference in my already low o2 process, I'd say go take a running jump. If you're going to make that argument, then it doesn't start at the mill, it starts at malting and storage of the malt thereafter.

 

[Red over White]

Yes, absolutely. I'd argue that that is really the more important of the two sides. While, if you read Kunze, which I do from time to time, he'll stress that oxygen should be mitigated from ALL parts of the brew process. The mill? Seriously? Yeah, I don't think so. So if you want to argue that that will make an appreciable difference in my already low o2 process, I'd say go take a running jump. If you're going to make that argument, then it doesn't start at the mill, it starts at malting and storage of the malt thereafter.

I read Kunze and I understand that there are commercial applications that make sense for them and at our scale are really just a folly. I typically setup the night before and low oxygen brewing doesn't really add any time to my brew day at all. For hoppy beers and lagers there is definitely a difference brewing low oxygen, for some other styles I go much lighter with the mash NaMeta, especially dark ales, but still always use YOS, underlettting, mash cap etc... because it makes sense as good brewing practice to me.

Closed xfers and uber purged kegs are important for any brewer to retain that brewery fresh beer flavor. I can taste a difference brewing full on low oxygen, but I don't think everyone does. Its always available as another option to bring something else to a brew.

 

[day_trippr]

The mill? Seriously? Yeah, I don't think so.

Well, who knows, oxidation takes many forms, and if one mills just before strike/dough-in, that avoids overnight (or longer) oxidation of the ground malt. Maybe it's not a profound contributor but it's gotta be non-zero.

I do that, flush all my rig tubing with boiled water, underlet the strike, use a submerged return for recirculation, keep the boil modest, and don't air-drop wort at any point. By hard-core measures it's barely "tyro" level but until I can fab a mash cap that's pretty much all I got on the hot side...

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

Day tripper, all that is missing is some sulfites!

 

[day_trippr]

I am an aged brewer but I am still somewhat malleable to new practices. Hence I have very recently (as in, my last kegged batch) dabbled with ascorbic acid as a packaging-O2 attenuator (hopefully!)

So far so good, but it may not be evident if there was any gain from my usual practices as the neipa in question seems to be drinking quickly and I have had many batches of hop-slammed hazies stay nicely bright for six months before

Baby steps. Maybe I'll get to sulfites in the mash before I'm earthworm food

Cheers!

 

[brewbama]

… You could look into adding the LODO "trifecta" of Brewtan B, ascorbic acid and sodium metabisulfite to the mash. …

+1

MoreBeer now sells OxBlox which is a trifecta formula. They recommend .2-.4 grams per gal water treated. A little goes a LONG way.

I feel the same way @Bassman2003: I do not care about the BHE., either. I use 8.5-9# grain for 10-11° Plato using No Sparge.

 

[day_trippr]

Here's the math on two 2 ounce packages of OxBlox via morebeer.com.

I'm gonna see if I can get the last big lhbs in all of New England to stock this at a more reasonable acquisition cost...

Cheers!

 

[brewbama]

Here's the math on two 2 ounce packages of OxBlox via morebeer.com.

View attachment 815332


I'm gonna see if I can get the last big lhbs in all of New England to stock this at a more reasonable acquisition cost...

Cheers!

If you order ingredients for a cpl batches you can get to the free shipping number. I always need Pale malt, maybe some Munich, throw in a cpl packs of yeast along with the OxBlox and that gets you in the free shipping neighborhood.

 

[day_trippr]

Well...order size is an issue. I get my yearly 300 pound base malt sack buy from an HBTer with a BSG connection at a heavy discount, and get specialty grains and yeast as needed from that last big New England lhbs to help keep the proprietor afloat. So there's not much left to order from the likes of Morebeer.com or any other retailer to defray/avoid shipping costs...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

Lol, out of curiosity I searched Amazon for Oxblox, thinking I'd find it there with a better shipping deal than MB. I got some listing for RV jack blocks.

The stuff sounds like an easier to manage alternative than to measure out 3 different chemicals each brew. At $7.99 for 2 oz, it's cheaper per ounce than BtB, which is going for $7.99 for ONE oz.

Based on dosage per gallon strike water, the costs (not factoring shipping):
BtB (max. dosage): 0.26g at $0.28/g --> $0.073/gal strike
Oxblox (max. dosage): 0.4g at $0.14/g --> $0.056/gal strike

(I didn't count the cost of AA and SMB for the BtB trifecta, as those 2 are so cheap it's negligible.)

The Oxblox is cheaper to use.

 

[MaxStout]

I am an aged brewer but I am still somewhat malleable to new practices. Hence I have very recently (as in, my last kegged batch) dabbled with ascorbic acid as a packaging-O2 attenuator (hopefully!)

So far so good, but it may not be evident if there was any gain from my usual practices as the neipa in question seems to be drinking quickly and I have had many batches of hop-slammed hazies stay nicely bright for six months before

Baby steps. Maybe I'll get to sulfites in the mash before I'm earthworm food

Cheers!

I've started adding AA and SMB in low doses (around 10ppm) at bottling. Basically, about 200mg of each into a typical 5 gal batch in the bottling bucket. I've only done this on the last 4 or 5 batches, but so far I have noticed some improvement in shelf stability.

 

[Bassman2003]

If cost is a concern, most are using just sulfites alone, no AA. Sodium Metabisulfite is very common and low cost. I use 1.2 grams per mash. (5 gallon batch). I use the Duda brand from Amazon. $8.99 a lb.

Brewtan B is good stuff for the mash and for the boil. It is a little more difficult to find. Common dosage would be 1/4 to 1/2 tsp for the mash and 1/2 tsp for the boil.

For YOS (yeast oxygen scavenging), I use Red Star active dry yeast. Cheap by the pound from Amazon. I use 1-2 grams per gallon of strike water + 1-2 grams of sugar per gallon of strike water.

 

[beersk]

If cost is a concern, most are using just sulfites alone, no AA. Sodium Metabisulfite is very common and low cost. I use 1.2 grams per mash. (5 gallon batch). I use the Duda brand from Amazon. $8.99 a lb.

Brewtan B is good stuff for the mash and for the boil. It is a little more difficult to find. Common dosage would be 1/4 to 1/2 tsp for the mash and 1/2 tsp for the boil.

For YOS (yeast oxygen scavenging), I use Red Star active dry yeast. Cheap by the pound from Amazon. I use 1-2 grams per gallon of strike water + 1-2 grams of sugar per gallon of strike water.

I use Kmeta. It's a bit better for lowering the risk of excess sulfur in the finished beer if you use a little too much. I do an even blend of ascorbic acid, brewtan B, and potassium metabisulfite for my pixie dust blend. I dose at 1g per 5 gallons, which doesn't seem like much but it is about .25g per gallon...similar to what MoreBeer recommends for their blend. I actually don't use any brewtan B post-mash since it's all stainless contact from there. I'm not sure it's necessary unless you're using copper.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is kind of "inside baseball" talk but why not! The sulfite amounts are completely system dependent and also subjective flavor dependent. The first thoughts were to go high on the sulfites and this yielded beers that there very technically perfect from an oxygen point of view. But the flavor was going towards the sterile/neutral side. It seems most are in the 25 to 50 PPM range now. Which 1gm per 5 gallons is in.

"Tightening up" your system plays a part in the amount of Oxygen absorbers one needs as well. I am always learning about and tweaking ways to run my setup for an easier and more effective brewday. Dough in is the most important part of the day. The initial reaction is where you make or brake retaining the mythical flavors. You know when you get to the boil and how much (actually how little) "stuff" appears in the initial foam up/hot break. Pure white and little to no teig (snot looking protein) and you did good.

The hard core folks purge and vacuum the mash tun to create an inert environment. I have done this once (no vacuum, just purge with 1 PSI of CO2 before and after I put the grain bag in). I probably with try it again as it was easy. The main thing is strip the strike water of all oxygen and deliver it slowly to the grain without adding and extra O2 along the way.

Brewtan in the boil is quite effective for wort clarity. Brewtan chelates all kinds of things. The same principle of leaving the stuff behind you don't want that works in the mash also applies to the boil. Here is my routine - at 15 minutes left I lower the pH aiming for 5.1, add the Brewtan or equivalent, add whirlfloc at about 10 or 8 minutes. Chill and then let sit/settle for 30-40 minutes. Drain to the fermenter. This yields very clear wort going into the fermenter. It also drops a lot of trub to the bottom of your boil kettle, so a clean way to drain and not pickup all of the stuff is needed. I use a rotating pickup arm.

Sulfites have a 2nd component of needing to be expended before you go to fermentation. Basically, add O2 so there are not any remaining in the wort to compete with the yeast. If they are left in the fermentation wort, sulphur aromas have been common. So I do a two stage O2 blast for most beers - 2 minutes @ .5 LPM, take a break, pitch the yeast then 3-4 minutes @ .12 LPM. I do not have a DO meter, so this is built around advice from those that do have meters to generally cover all beers. Yeast nutrient is advised since the way we brew leaves so much stuff behind that you want to get some Zinc in there for the yeast.

Some of the nitty gritty. There is a lot of past negativity related to the low oxygen crowd, but the beers I am making now are so much better than before I started this journey 4+ years ago. That speaks for itself in my mind.

 

[beersk]

This is kind of "inside baseball" talk but why not! The sulfite amounts are completely system dependent and also subjective flavor dependent. The first thoughts were to go high on the sulfites and this yielded beers that there very technically perfect from an oxygen point of view. But the flavor was going towards the sterile/neutral side. It seems most are in the 25 to 50 PPM range now. Which 1gm per 5 gallons is in.
.......

Some of the nitty gritty. There is a lot of past negativity related to the low oxygen crowd, but the beers I am making now are so much better than before I started this journey 4+ years ago. That speaks for itself in my mind.

I am dosing the blend at 1g per 5 gallons. So if what you're saying - 1g of sulfites per 5 gallons - I could probably increase my dosing in that case. My actual dosing, at 1g per 5 gallons strike water, would be about .33g of kmeta, not 1g, since my blend is equal amounts of kmeta, ascorbic, and BtB.

And, agreed, the beers I'm making are great. Better than my beers in 2017/2018? Probably yes, only because I'm now pressure fermenting as well. 2016 was the figure-it-all-out year; had a few really good beers and a few super sulfur bombs. Overall, I think I like pressure fermenting the most. It's so damn cool. Just don't pressure ferment beers that are meant to have esters, like hefes and Belgians! Learned that the hard way (ie sulfur bombs).

But like I said before, I've gone through many existential brewing crises over the years where I struggle with what matters to me. So, I'm always going back and forth with low o2/high splash brewing and much of it depends on my batch size too. My 2.5 batches are always low o2, my 5 gallon batches where I have to batch sparge are usually my "high splash" batches and are still usually great beers with care taken at different parts of the process.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am at 1.2 grams for about 8.25 gallons of strike water. That is for a full volume mash. But I have had this higher and lower over the past few years. I think my improvements in process have allowed for a fairly low sulfite addition. If you system is tighter or looser you might need a different number. The main thing is to study your pre-boil activity. Add the sulfites until you get minimal junk along with pure white foam. Then stay at that number or start lowering it until the stuff starts showing up.

 

[Red over White]

I am on the lower end of SMB with adjunct lagers, using a macro brewery adjunct mash schedule of doughing in at 113 with YOS still active and 25ppm SMB. For the most other lagers I am between 25 and 40ppm, depending on mash length. Using SMB powder, it easy to calculate the exact dose for the volume of strike water added 5 mins before Dough-in.

PPM x Liters ÷ 1000 = grams

25 x 30 ÷ 1000 = .75 grams SMB for 25 ppm and it should scavenge a total of ~5 ppm O2 during the mash.

My system is pretty tight with only 1 hose change right before the boil, but not automated, hard piped or gas purged. I'm milling into the mashtun as I underlet with gravity. With all hoses in place and YOS water run through them the night before to be completely purged, brew day is really just business as usual for me. The only real extra time added to my process is weighing out the various extra low oxygen brewing water accoutrements and running the pumps for a few minutes to mix everything the night before.

Since I was already fermenting under pressure and doing closed transfers prior to going whole hog low oxygen, it was very easy for me to taste the difference and then continue to tighten up my hot side gear and process for improved low oxygen brewing results. When everything goes according to Hoyle, I end up with some pretty amazing beers on tap that I would be proud to serve to anyone.

 

[beersk]

I am on the lower end of SMB with adjunct lagers, using a macro brewery adjunct mash schedule of doughing in at 113 with YOS still active and 25ppm SMB. For the most other lagers I am between 25 and 40ppm, depending on mash length. Using SMB powder, it easy to calculate the exact dose for the volume of strike water added 5 mins before Dough-in.

PPM x Liters ÷ 1000 = grams

25 x 30 ÷ 1000 = .75 grams SMB for 25 ppm and it should scavenge a total of ~5 ppm O2 during the mash.

My system is pretty tight with only 1 hose change right before the boil, but not automated, hard piped or gas purged. I'm milling into the mashtun as I underlet with gravity. With all hoses in place and YOS water run through them the night before to be completely purged, brew day is really just business as usual for me. The only real extra time added to my process is weighing out the various extra low oxygen brewing water accoutrements and running the pumps for a few minutes to mix everything the night before.

Since I was already fermenting under pressure and doing closed transfers prior to going whole hog low oxygen, it was very easy for me to taste the difference and then continue to tighten up my hot side gear and process for improved low oxygen brewing results. When everything goes according to Hoyle, I end up with some pretty amazing beers on tap that I would be proud to serve to anyone.

Are you doing 5 gallon batches? Sounds like you dose a tad higher than me per gallon of strike water, otherwise the process sounds pretty similar. And I'm now wondering if I should increase my dosage a little...

To @Bassman2003 point about foam in the beginning of the boil - it's tough for me to gauge because I first wort hop every single beer, so the hot break contains the hop oils in it as well. I like that process and likely won't change it. I do get some taige on top of the mash sometimes and sometimes I don't...

 

[Red over White]

Are you doing 5 gallon batches? Sounds like you dose a tad higher than me per gallon of strike water, otherwise the process sounds pretty similar. And I'm now wondering if I should increase my dosage a little...

To @Bassman2003 point about foam in the beginning of the boil - it's tough for me to gauge because I first wort hop every single beer, so the hot break contains the hop oils in it as well. I like that process and likely won't change it. I do get some taige on top of the mash sometimes and sometimes I don't...

I do 5 to 15 gallon batches, with 10 gallons the most common. You likely have a little latitude in your dosage rate. It won't hurt if you went a little higher.

 

[beersk]

I do 5 to 15 gallon batches, with 10 gallons the most common. You likely have a little latitude in your dosage rate. It won't hurt if you went a little higher.

Maybe I'll increase it a tad then. One of these days soon I want to do a side-by-side high splash vs low splash experiment. Not sure if I want to keep both as pressure fermented batches or do the low o2 as pressure fermented and the regular batch as my other process or how I want to do that. Kinda looking for an extreme rather than just testing one variable.
I did a side-by-side back in 2017 on a helles where one was done full low o2, preboil, spunded, etc. and the other was done without any low o2 processes except maybe mashing in from below since that is my process, and not spunded. The beers were very similar with the low o2 batch having a very slight bit more malt character and body as well as being a tad smoother. I had several friends who tried it and they could tell the difference for the most part, but the beers were very very similar and both were excellent. So perhaps my process wasn't/isn't as great as it could be, but meh, whatever. Y'all know where I stand...

 

[Red over White]

Maybe I'll increase it a tad then. One of these days soon I want to do a side-by-side high splash vs low splash experiment. Not sure if I want to keep both as pressure fermented batches or do the low o2 as pressure fermented and the regular batch as my other process or how I want to do that. Kinda looking for an extreme rather than just testing one variable.
I did a side-by-side back in 2017 on a helles where one was done full low o2, preboil, spunded, etc. and the other was done without any low o2 processes except maybe mashing in from below since that is my process, and not spunded. The beers were very similar with the low o2 batch having a very slight bit more malt character and body as well as being a tad smoother. I had several friends who tried it and they could tell the difference for the most part, but the beers were very very similar and both were excellent. So perhaps my process wasn't/isn't as great as it could be, but meh, whatever. Y'all know where I stand...

Definitely report back whenever you get a chance to do that. I found the lack of malt aroma while low oxygen mashing a very telling sign early on. As my process improved the beers got better and better. I need to do the same experiment, but everything is to good to change anything!

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, FWH makes it tough to see a clear picture. But I agree, FWH is cool so no need to change!

I started with pressure this summer and it is a great tool to have in the toolbox. Once you go there, it sticks and most beers will get some form of pressure outside of hefes and Belgians. But I have made a few blondes with pressure that were massively "drinkable".

 

[beersk]

Yeah, I wish I could do it with larger batch volumes but 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon keg is all I got. Jumping up to 5 gallon batches would be a massive increase in cost and space since I don't think a typical pressure capable fermenter on the market now will fit in my current fermentation fridge. Now if someone could modify a 1/4 barrel sanke keg to have a bigger opening with a tri-clamp closure, that would be my perfect fermenter. But all the brewing outlets that make them use those stupid short, fat kegs. They're too wide for my fridge.

 

[wepeeler]

I am an aged brewer but I am still somewhat malleable to new practices. Hence I have very recently (as in, my last kegged batch) dabbled with ascorbic acid as a packaging-O2 attenuator (hopefully!)

So far so good, but it may not be evident if there was any gain from my usual practices as the neipa in question seems to be drinking quickly and I have had many batches of hop-slammed hazies stay nicely bright for six months before

Baby steps. Maybe I'll get to sulfites in the mash before I'm earthworm food

Cheers!

I add a tablespoon of ascorbic acid to all my kegs now and I swear it makes a difference. But, my "I swear" statement isn't scientifically proven with testing. It's more of a, "I think it's working, and it's cheap as hell, so why not?" statement.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm totally with you so far
I did use just one teaspoon per keg based on reading something on it in this forum...

Cheers!

 

[Red over White]

I add a tablespoon of ascorbic acid to all my kegs now and I swear it makes a difference. But, my "I swear" statement isn't scientifically proven with testing. It's more of a, "I think it's working, and it's cheap as hell, so why not?" statement.

There is nothing wrong with "citizen science". I pitch liquid yeast and pressurize the headspace with oxygen vs injecting oxygen into the wort. So far I have not found a downside and everything runs tickety boo. All SOP's came from somewhere, most aren't from a laboratory environment, jus sayin.