hosehead electronic brewery controller

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That's what I want to do bring it up to temp fast then use one to maintain temps
You could do this if your using 5500w, you just can't use two, maybe have 5500w and then like a 3000w to maintain?-you'd have to do the math to stay below 32a. I suppose you could use both 5500w if you calculated what the max duty cycle you could keep the maintaining one at to stay below 32a.
 
Here's his reply:

So the question is will a Powercon 32 handle the 42+ amp load of 2 elements, The answer is yes. I am not arguing the fact that the connector is rated at 32A RMS. The question is what is the real power handling capability of the PC32. Neutrik is not going to publish that to cover there own but we can take an educated guess based on some real world examples.

So lets look at a couple of devices that use the PC32 for an input connector and what they are drawing for power.

The first device is a 20,000 watt amplifier from Lake Audio

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/plm-plus-series/plm-20k44

This device Is capable of a 67A power draw. It uses a single PC32 for power input.
This Amp costs about $10K.

Here is a 12,000 watt amplifier from Behringer

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...nu12000dsp_ultra_lightweight_high_density.htm

Power draw 50A, It also uses a single PC32 for power input.


Both of these devices show that the PC32 is capable of more than 32A and I highly doubt the engineers mad a bad choice when they designed these things.

So instead of jumping to conclusions that it would or would not work, I spent a long time stress testing to make sure it would handle it and do it safely. I did that by boiling 12 gallons in both the HLT and the Boil kettle with both Camco 5500's running at the same time for 8 hours continuously multiple times over the course of a year, along with actual brewing with both elements at the same time every time I have brewed since.

You asked me if it would do it, and I could have lied and said no, but I gave you an honest answer based on real world testing and actual use.
If using it that way is beyond your comfort level than do what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. And yes the PC32 will accept 8 gauge wire.

Cheers!
 
Really you can do what you want, it's probably fine. It is only validated at 32a by the underwriters laboratory.
 
Here's his reply:

So the question is will a Powercon 32 handle the 42+ amp load of 2 elements, The answer is yes. I am not arguing the fact that the connector is rated at 32A RMS. The question is what is the real power handling capability of the PC32. Neutrik is not going to publish that to cover there own but we can take an educated guess based on some real world examples.

So lets look at a couple of devices that use the PC32 for an input connector and what they are drawing for power.

The first device is a 20,000 watt amplifier from Lake Audio

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/plm-plus-series/plm-20k44

This device Is capable of a 67A power draw. It uses a single PC32 for power input.
This Amp costs about $10K.

Here is a 12,000 watt amplifier from Behringer

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...nu12000dsp_ultra_lightweight_high_density.htm

Power draw 50A, It also uses a single PC32 for power input.


Both of these devices show that the PC32 is capable of more than 32A and I highly doubt the engineers mad a bad choice when they designed these things.

So instead of jumping to conclusions that it would or would not work, I spent a long time stress testing to make sure it would handle it and do it safely. I did that by boiling 12 gallons in both the HLT and the Boil kettle with both Camco 5500's running at the same time for 8 hours continuously multiple times over the course of a year, along with actual brewing with both elements at the same time every time I have brewed since.

You asked me if it would do it, and I could have lied and said no, but I gave you an honest answer based on real world testing and actual use.
If using it that way is beyond your comfort level than do what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. And yes the PC32 will accept 8 gauge wire.

Cheers!

If you look at the specs for the first amplifier you will see that the 20KW quoted above is for peak burst power. The continuous RMS power is only 4400W. Also if you look at the input power cable options they are all rated for less than 32A.

This guy is comparing apples to oranges.
 
Him running both 5500 w elements for 8hrs a day for a year to test it is proof enough for me.

He has no reason to lie. If it were to fail he knows I would post about here on HBT and that would hurt his business. If he had any doubts at all I'm sure he'd say not to do it just to play it safe.

But as he said a year of testing and he still does it when he brews makes him confident that the Hosehead will perform as he says. That's good enough for me.
 
My concern is that if I use something that is rated at 32A for an application that is rated higher and there is a fire... What will my insurance company say?
 
Yeah I have learned never to leave brewing unattended seems every time I do I have a boil over. So no worries there. Plus like I said just both will be run only to get to temp then I'd just use one to maintain temps.
 
Yeah I have learned never to leave brewing unattended seems every time I do I have a boil over. So no worries there. Plus like I said just both will be run only to get to temp then I'd just use one to maintain temps.

How come boilovers always go straight to the least convenient location to clean. I hate that.
 
Him running both 5500 w elements for 8hrs a day for a year to test it is proof enough for me.

He has no reason to lie. If it were to fail he knows I would post about here on HBT and that would hurt his business. If he had any doubts at all I'm sure he'd say not to do it just to play it safe.

But as he said a year of testing and he still does it when he brews makes him confident that the Hosehead will perform as he says. That's good enough for me.

Tell that to the insurance guy when they deny your claim when your house burns down.

Realistically your probably perfectly fine, but things are rated for a reason and i will follow them...if you wanted you could always gut the hosehead and build a proper 50A panel.
 
After talking with an insurance agent I was told the insurance company will deny your claim regardless unless you had the brew panel or device and all the wiring ULListed.....and professionally installed to meet all codes. The bottom line is it gives them an easy legal way out.when its all a charred melted mess you have no proof your homemade device was wired correctly or to code...

And a 25a SSR is designed to handle 25a RMS... this is just as safe and reliable as using a 30a outlet for up to 30a... I have been using a 25a SSR for 3 years with my 4500w elements that draw 17.4 and 18.1 amps respectively at max power...
 
After talking with an insurance agent I was told the insurance company will deny your claim regardless unless you had the brew panel or device and all the wiring ULListed.....and professionally installed to meet all codes. The bottom line is it gives them an easy legal way out.when its all a charred melted mess you have no proof your homemade device was wired correctly or to code...

And a 25a SSR is designed to handle 25a RMS... this is just as safe and reliable as using a 30a outlet for up to 30a... I have been using a 25a SSR for 3 years with my 4500w elements that draw 17.4 and 18.1 amps respectively at max power...

True enough, although im still skeptical about pulling 45A through a 32A rated connector...will it work? Probably, but i'd never ever do it or recommend it to anyone. Its just asking for premature failure.
 
True enough, although im still skeptical about pulling 45A through a 32A rated connector...will it work? Probably, but i'd never ever do it or recommend it to anyone. Its just asking for premature failure.

yeah Im kinda surprised at that one too...It apparently does work but I but it heats up a bit..
 
True enough, although im still skeptical about pulling 45A through a 32A rated connector...will it work? Probably, but i'd never ever do it or recommend it to anyone. Its just asking for premature failure.

Exactly. And that is where the whole liability thing comes into play. Something bad happens and your house burns to the ground. Your insurance will deny the claim, so now what. You sue hose head because of their faulty product. In court, your lawyer hires a licensed professional electrical engineer as an expert witness (these guys tend to be professors at local universities). All the expert witness has to point out is that the connector is not rated for the current that the product was drawing and game over for hose head. All of his testing goes out the door in the court room.
 
Exactly. And that is where the whole liability thing comes into play. Something bad happens and your house burns to the ground. Your insurance will deny the claim, so now what. You sue hose head because of their faulty product. In court, your lawyer hires a licensed professional electrical engineer as an expert witness (these guys tend to be professors at local universities). All the expert witness has to point out is that the connector is not rated for the current that the product was drawing and game over for hose head. All of his testing goes out the door in the court room.

Lets all hope it never gets to that point ;):tank:
 
Proper products are designed with safety margin in place. Only a moron purposely erodes that margin.

I don't understand why you would risk using a product well past its intended/designed use. It may work but in this case you are facing big implications if it doesn't. Trust the engineers and follow the damn specifications!

-BD
 
Lol you all border on the silly.

Like I'm going to be brewing and not be standing right there to unplug everything if there's a problem. Kinda similar to brewing with propane. That can start a fire too you know. And I am sure if you burn your house down with your propane brewstand insurance isn't paying out either.

The guy who builds the hosehead has torture tested them far beyond what I will put mine thru. Only running 2 elements to get to mash temp and to get to boil.

Not quite sure why you all care so much. Doesn't sound like any of you are interested in the product so why are you in this thread??? Just to troll and look for arguments?
 
Lol you all border on the silly.

Like I'm going to be brewing and not be standing right there to unplug everything if there's a problem. Kinda similar to brewing with propane. That can start a fire too you know. And I am sure if you burn your house down with your propane brewstand insurance isn't paying out either.

The guy who builds the hosehead has torture tested them far beyond what I will put mine thru. Only running 2 elements to get to mash temp and to get to boil.

Not quite sure why you all care so much. Doesn't sound like any of you are interested in the product so why are you in this thread??? Just to troll and look for arguments?

Regardless of the whole insurance argument, it just plain isn't safe.

And i don't want people who come to this thread and or buy this thing thinking they are OK using two elements at once with it in a 50A setup. If you want to take the risk, that's your prerogative, but the fact of the matter is that the device is not designed with parts to properly handle 43+ amps.

Many of the people who buy a hosehead will be doing so because they dont feel comfortable or have understanding with the electrical side of wiring up your own panel. I just think its bad to be telling these people that dont know any better "I use my setup way beyond its capacity and it works, so its fine". Yes propane can kill too, but its not a "hidden" killer like electricity.
 
Here's his reply:

So the question is will a Powercon 32 handle the 42+ amp load of 2 elements, The answer is yes. I am not arguing the fact that the connector is rated at 32A RMS. The question is what is the real power handling capability of the PC32. Neutrik is not going to publish that to cover there own but we can take an educated guess based on some real world examples.

So lets look at a couple of devices that use the PC32 for an input connector and what they are drawing for power.

The first device is a 20,000 watt amplifier from Lake Audio

http://labgruppen.com/view-model/plm-plus-series/plm-20k44

This device Is capable of a 67A power draw. It uses a single PC32 for power input.
This Amp costs about $10K.

Here is a 12,000 watt amplifier from Behringer

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...nu12000dsp_ultra_lightweight_high_density.htm

Power draw 50A, It also uses a single PC32 for power input.


Both of these devices show that the PC32 is capable of more than 32A and I highly doubt the engineers mad a bad choice when they designed these things.

So instead of jumping to conclusions that it would or would not work, I spent a long time stress testing to make sure it would handle it and do it safely. I did that by boiling 12 gallons in both the HLT and the Boil kettle with both Camco 5500's running at the same time for 8 hours continuously multiple times over the course of a year, along with actual brewing with both elements at the same time every time I have brewed since.

You asked me if it would do it, and I could have lied and said no, but I gave you an honest answer based on real world testing and actual use.
If using it that way is beyond your comfort level than do what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. And yes the PC32 will accept 8 gauge wire.

Cheers!

Wow, this is scary. :eek:

These amplifier ratings are often inflated by the marketing staff of these audio companies (particularly the latter). Importantly, as mentioned, the ratings are for instantaneous bursts driving loudspeakers, not for continuous duty driving heating elements. It is quite clear that the fellow selling the hosehead controller does not understand this. That is a lot of power in a very small enclosure, and for the vendor to make the claim that the 32A rated PowerCon connector is sufficient to handle two 5500W elements simultaneously is worrisome. Also, what is the rating of the mains cable? Is that 8 gauge 4 conductor to enable it to carry 50A safely? Is there a provision of 30A breakers to prevent overloads on the element cables and circuitry? If not, every wire, connector, terminal, etc, is subject to a potential 50A load (or whatever the breaker value is rated at in the panel feeding this), and will likely overload at some point with potentially tragic results.

I must say that it looks quite slick, but this really should be limited to single element systems (e.g. eBIAB), or it should designed to switch on only one element at a time to prevent overloading the system. Until this, I would strongly urge having it protected upstream with a 30A breaker to prevent a possible circuit overload.
 
http://brewtronix.com/Hosehead

You'll be glad to know he's listened and upgraded the connectors

Very glad! Its not quite as sleek looking, but its much more functional and safe now...and at that price is a steal.

The output connectors are safer now, but the input wire being 10/3 is still only good for 30 amps so it's still only safe for one 5500 watt element at a time. If the input wire was 6/3 and whatever is inside for switching is rated at least 50amps then it would be much safer for using 2 elements at once.
 
The output connectors are safer now, but the input wire being 10/3 is still only good for 30 amps so it's still only safe for one 5500 watt element at a time. If the input wire was 6/3 and whatever is inside for switching is rated at least 50amps then it would be much safer for using 2 elements at once.

Very true, i think he should just market it as a single controller for the price it cant be beat if you dont want to DIY.
Ive never tried, but i assume SBE will allow you by default to turn both PID's on at once? So without a manual switch on the box itself its possible to turn on both without realizing it?
 
Very true, i think he should just market it as a single controller for the price it cant be beat if you dont want to DIY.
Ive never tried, but i assume SBE will allow you by default to turn both PID's on at once? So without a manual switch on the box itself its possible to turn on both without realizing it?

It does look like a great plug a play controller. There sure doesn't seem to be anything that would limit someone from turning on both elements, it's just not very safe with current wiring.
 
Wow, this is scary. :eek:



These amplifier ratings are often inflated by the marketing staff of these audio companies (particularly the latter). Importantly, as mentioned, the ratings are for instantaneous bursts driving loudspeakers, not for continuous duty driving heating elements. It is quite clear that the fellow selling the hosehead controller does not understand this. That is a lot of power in a very small enclosure, and for the vendor to make the claim that the 32A rated PowerCon connector is sufficient to handle two 5500W elements simultaneously is worrisome. Also, what is the rating of the mains cable? Is that 8 gauge 4 conductor to enable it to carry 50A safely? Is there a provision of 30A breakers to prevent overloads on the element cables and circuitry? If not, every wire, connector, terminal, etc, is subject to a potential 50A load (or whatever the breaker value is rated at in the panel feeding this), and will likely overload at some point with potentially tragic results.



I must say that it looks quite slick, but this really should be limited to single element systems (e.g. eBIAB), or it should designed to switch on only one element at a time to prevent overloading the system. Until this, I would strongly urge having it protected upstream with a 30A breaker to prevent a possible circuit overload.


Very agree with this!

-BD
 
Wow, this is scary. :eek:

These amplifier ratings are often inflated by the marketing staff of these audio companies (particularly the latter). Importantly, as mentioned, the ratings are for instantaneous bursts driving loudspeakers, not for continuous duty driving heating elements. It is quite clear that the fellow selling the hosehead controller does not understand this. That is a lot of power in a very small enclosure, and for the vendor to make the claim that the 32A rated PowerCon connector is sufficient to handle two 5500W elements simultaneously is worrisome. Also, what is the rating of the mains cable? Is that 8 gauge 4 conductor to enable it to carry 50A safely? Is there a provision of 30A breakers to prevent overloads on the element cables and circuitry? If not, every wire, connector, terminal, etc, is subject to a potential 50A load (or whatever the breaker value is rated at in the panel feeding this), and will likely overload at some point with potentially tragic results.

I must say that it looks quite slick, but this really should be limited to single element systems (e.g. eBIAB), or it should designed to switch on only one element at a time to prevent overloading the system. Until this, I would strongly urge having it protected upstream with a 30A breaker to prevent a possible circuit overload.
rms is continuous so they are rated at 32a continuous... But I thought they were actually rated at 32a rms at something ridiculous like 1000v which in reality make them rated for a higher amperage at 240v.... 2 4500w elements only draw about 34-36 amps... I would say thisd is a good solution for having one element on at a time but with 30 rated power cords its not really wise to use them for 44-46 amp loads... Thats really pushing it. it seems to work ok and thats likely because of the length of the cord and the real capacities being higher in this application Since ratings are simplified to keep things simple (and cheaper) on a broader spectrum of applications and scenerios they often dont represent what true testing would always show.... in any case I wouldnt recommend drawing 44 amps rms through a 30a cord. too many unknowns.
 
... at something ridiculous like 1000v which in reality make them rated for a higher amperage at 240v....


That's not exactly accurate... Connector ratings are max for that parameter. Amperage rating dictates how much current it can handle through the materials and across the mating interface reliably (amps are amps - independent of the voltage driving). Voltage rating dictates the dialectric or insulative ability. If it were rated in power or VA, then you would have a voltage/current trade off.

-BD
 
rms is continuous so they are rated at 32a continuous... But I thought they were actually rated at 32a rms at something ridiculous like 1000v which in reality make them rated for a higher amperage at 240v.... 2 4500w elements only draw about 34-36 amps... I would say thisd is a good solution for having one element on at a time but with 30 rated power cords its not really wise to use them for 44-46 amp loads... Thats really pushing it. it seems to work ok and thats likely because of the length of the cord and the real capacities being higher in this application Since ratings are simplified to keep things simple (and cheaper) on a broader spectrum of applications and scenerios they often dont represent what true testing would always show.... in any case I wouldnt recommend drawing 44 amps rms through a 30a cord. too many unknowns.

Realistically, panel breakers are designed to prevent wiring within walls from getting too hot and causing fires in places that cannot be seen. Wiring in appliances connected to breakered circuits should be designed to perform with appropriate consideration of the circuits feeding them and importantly, the capacity of the loads they will encounter. Trying to run two 4500 or 5500 watt elements on a 50A breaker feeding the circuit is doable. Doing so over a 10/3 SOOJ cable through a connector rated at 32A is not smart. I'm not sure if the folks at Hosehead intended this, but clearly, they need to account for this. I think for their liability's sake, they should consider adding a 30A breaker to ensure that their input cabling and other circuitry is not overloaded.
 
Very true, i think he should just market it as a single controller for the price it cant be beat if you dont want to DIY.
Ive never tried, but i assume SBE will allow you by default to turn both PID's on at once? So without a manual switch on the box itself its possible to turn on both without realizing it?

It's quite simple. Put a toggle switch on the panel that controls the output to one SSR or the other. This way, only one element is firing at a time. Better yet, an input 30A breaker would ensure that no overcurrent condition could exist, regardless of user error.

I must say that I'm very impressed by this controller. I would never run two high wattage elements at the same time on this, just based on common sense. But, I do think that this vendor needs to protect himself from both user error and unknowns, particularly given that the majority of users will have this plugged into a 50A GFCI spa panel (which is the most cost effective way of providing GFCI protection). Given the voltage and current potential, it seems prudent to build in some protection.

Not negating the need for circuit protection in the hardware, it would be pretty cool if the Elsinore software running on this could provide some means of sharing power for more than one element (e.g. duty cycle control). For example, in a 3v system with a heated HLT and boil kettle, the software may call for the BK to be at 100% output while bringing to a boil while the HLT may need a fraction of input to maintain sparge temps. By time-slicing the output between the two PIDs, it would be possible to have the BK get most of the output, but turn the element off to feed the HLT element when needed. This could also be implemented in hardware using a DPDT relay switched by the higher priority vessel (in this case, the HLT where the temp needs to be maintained, but has a lower duty cycle). Using this approach, it may take a bit longer to achieve a boil, but there would never be an overcurrent condition.
 
rms is continuous so they are rated at 32a continuous... But I thought they were actually rated at 32a rms at something ridiculous like 1000v which in reality make them rated for a higher amperage at 240v.... 2 4500w elements only draw about 34-36 amps... I would say thisd is a good solution for having one element on at a time but with 30 rated power cords its not really wise to use them for 44-46 amp loads... Thats really pushing it. it seems to work ok and thats likely because of the length of the cord and the real capacities being higher in this application Since ratings are simplified to keep things simple (and cheaper) on a broader spectrum of applications and scenerios they often dont represent what true testing would always show.... in any case I wouldnt recommend drawing 44 amps rms through a 30a cord. too many unknowns.

It's quite simple. Put a toggle switch on the panel that controls the output to one SSR or the other. This way, only one element is firing at a time. Better yet, an input 30A breaker would ensure that no overcurrent condition could exist, regardless of user error.

I must say that I'm very impressed by this controller. I would never run two high wattage elements at the same time on this, just based on common sense. But, I do think that this vendor needs to protect himself from both user error and unknowns, particularly given that the majority of users will have this plugged into a 50A GFCI spa panel (which is the most cost effective way of providing GFCI protection). Given the voltage and current potential, it seems prudent to build in some protection.

Not negating the need for circuit protection in the hardware, it would be pretty cool if the Elsinore software running on this could provide some means of sharing power for more than one element (e.g. duty cycle control). For example, in a 3v system with a heated HLT and boil kettle, the software may call for the BK to be at 100% output while bringing to a boil while the HLT may need a fraction of input to maintain sparge temps. By time-slicing the output between the two PIDs, it would be possible to have the BK get most of the output, but turn the element off to feed the HLT element when needed. This could also be implemented in hardware using a DPDT relay switched by the higher priority vessel (in this case, the HLT where the temp needs to be maintained, but has a lower duty cycle). Using this approach, it may take a bit longer to achieve a boil, but there would never be an overcurrent condition.

Yes this is what I was getting at too... in most home brew setups theres no need to fire the HLT and BK at the same time nor a rims and BK in a rims powered BIAB setup. for someone brewing with 2 5500w elements at the same time (nano operation) the box could and should be reconfiguered to power at least one element with an external contactor on their own power line by using the relay out power from the hosehead.
 
That's not exactly accurate... Connector ratings are max for that parameter. Amperage rating dictates how much current it can handle through the materials and across the mating interface reliably (amps are amps - independent of the voltage driving). Voltage rating dictates the dialectric or insulative ability. If it were rated in power or VA, then you would have a voltage/current trade off.

-BD
Good to know thanks in used to seeing stuff with larger amp ratings at lower voltages like relays for example.
and although most is rated for 30 amps, I do believe there is some SO or SJ 10/3 cord rated at higher than 30 amps... The 12/3 stuff I'm using for my elements is clearly rated for 25amps at 300v its odd that the incresed wire diameter is only good for 5 amps... it was my understanding the insulation made a difference.
 
Not negating the need for circuit protection in the hardware, it would be pretty cool if the Elsinore software running on this could provide some means of sharing power for more than one element (e.g. duty cycle control). For example, in a 3v system with a heated HLT and boil kettle, the software may call for the BK to be at 100% output while bringing to a boil while the HLT may need a fraction of input to maintain sparge temps. By time-slicing the output between the two PIDs, it would be possible to have the BK get most of the output, but turn the element off to feed the HLT element when needed. This could also be implemented in hardware using a DPDT relay switched by the higher priority vessel (in this case, the HLT where the temp needs to be maintained, but has a lower duty cycle). Using this approach, it may take a bit longer to achieve a boil, but there would never be an overcurrent condition.

This is what I am doing in my 30A BCS panel. I use a series of P-FET transistors and a switch to select what element has priority and then the other element is only able to turn on if the first one is not firing.

No need for a large relay, plus transistors are much cheaper than a relay too.
 
The Hosehead does not come configured to run 2 elements at the same time. I asked the owner if one could. That was when he told that it what he does and that if I asked when I ordered he would configure mine to do it.

I am building a one vessel 1 bbl EBIAB so I want to run 2 elements at the same time to get up to temps then just use one to maintain temp.
 
So if I were to ask the owner to modify the controller to make it safer as you guys are saying, what should I ask him to change or upgrade? I'm considering going electric and had looked at the hosehead a while back but wrote it off after reading some concerns and limitations.
 
So if I were to ask the owner to modify the controller to make it safer as you guys are saying, what should I ask him to change or upgrade? I'm considering going electric and had looked at the hosehead a while back but wrote it off after reading some concerns and limitations.

The hosehead controller is perfectly safe if run within the specs it was designed for (e.g. max of 30A load, e.g. one 5500W element and a pump on at max). The only addition would be for protection in case someone decides to run this beyond its ratings. This could be achieved either by using a DPDT relay or a two way switch to ensure that two elements are not fired simultaneously. To run two 5500W elements at the same time, it would require appropriate mains cable and receptacle capable of handling 50A, and proper wiring inside.
 
To run two 5500W elements at the same time, it would require appropriate mains cable and receptacle capable of handling 50A, and proper wiring inside.

Don't forget you need breakers/fuses to drop from 6 gauge wire to 10/14 for the elements and pumps. Which raises the question are there currently any breakers/fuses to limit the pump outputs to 15amps?
 
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