Hop Stand/Whirlpool - Getting great hop aroma/flavor

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m00ps said:
Ok so I brought a glass of it to my local brewery. Omg, they straight up offered me a job. If anyone wants the recipe I will be glad to give it. My head is swelling but I am absolutely floored by this beer. Let me know if anyone wants one or the recipe. I want to get rid of this before it declines, I would feel so bad if half of it doesn't get experienced before its too late...
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You tell them how much hops you use yet? :p My IPAs are pungent too but a bit too grassy. I've been actually scaling back due to this. Something like 10-12oz works. I am chasing after how to get the fruit to "pop" so to speak. The fruit seems to get lost in a mix of bitterness/grass/pungency and I just get a hint of fruit. English yeast has helped, but I am not after a HT type of thing. To me, draft Founder's Cent IPA is the best. Aroma and taste is almost fruit perfume.
 
yeah ive had some turn out grassy too. Well, more resinous than grassy, but enough to turn off those who dont like hops. Not sure if it was the hop varieties used or where I concentrated the additions. But this doesnt have any trace of resin or vegetal flavor on the back. Its super clean finishing despite the 9%abv and amount of hop flavor. I think it may be do to using Conan and then a tiny bit of 3711 two days in to dry it out more.

Another thing I think helps is using wheat in IPAs. I usually do 20-30% and it really does seem to bring out the fruity juicy flavors in hops
 
m00ps said:
If you are looking to get any appreciable bitterness from your hopstands, i would use a lot more than a measly 2oz. Ill usually add some at flameout and more below ~180F and it turns out very well. I only will use 0.5-1.0oz at 60min for what id estimate is liek 50% of my bittering and get the rest form the hopstand. I would also do 30min at the very least for a hopstand
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Just had a bottle the other night. It actually worked out quite well. The key is to have a substantial bittering charge at the beginning of the boil. In this case I used an ounce of Magnum at 60 minutes and then for a little more 2 oz at flameout. The rest were added in the whirlpool at 170. Actually had hop oils floating on the surface after whirlpool with the 4oz of hops I added. It was definitely what I was after here.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445000104.708147.jpg
 
I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)
 
m00ps said:
I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)
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That's awesome, congrats m00ps!
 
m00ps said:
I think I convinced this brewery to give my take on IPAs a shot. Their IPA is very traditional English style. The way I do mine is much closer to the newer "east coast" hop bombs that have restrained bitterness. Some pf the people ive given it to without telling them what style it is and it never occurs to them its an IPA

They also liked the idea of using flour for the permanent haze (but for their orange blossom wheat since it always clears after like a week in the keg)
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m00ps - Have you posted the Orange Juice IPA recipe yet? Please do so!
 
So it might be covered somewhere in this thread, and sorry if it is, but can anybody elaborate on this part of the original post?? :

"– Caution: long wort stand OK if you have a strong, vigorous 90 min boil"

What are the negatives of a long wort stand if you only boil for, say, 60 minutes?
 
I don't think it's been covered. I think in theory a longer boil will drop more polyphenols allowing you to steep longer without much new polyphenol (hops>grass) extraction from the hops. I am not sure it affects us homebrewers and maybe a just a pro thing. To simplify, I think there is a chance of increased grassiness with short boil and long stand. Maybe someone will test. I will say I've done long (60m+) hop stands and my results were overbitter. This of course was above 185F. I think a 30m hot and 30m cold might work though.
 
This is a great thread, lots of information...

Trying to relate this to no-chill brewing and it seems to be a direct contradiction to the whole idea of just subtracting 20 minutes from your hop additions if you're going to no-chill after the boil (and pitch the next day).

For example, if a recipe calls for a 30 minute hop addition and you're using the no-chill method... the "rule of thumb" seems to be that you would wait to add that particular addition until there are only 10 minutes left in the boil.

After reading this thread, it seems that you would want to add these hops at flameout at the absolute earliest. It's even more likely that you would wait until you're down to 180 degress in the cooling process.

I realize a lot of factors come in to play here (the biggest one being ambient temperature), but is the 20 minute rule an outdated idea? It seems like there is a lot more utilization going on in a hop stand than I originally thought.
 
I wouldnt call it "outdated" but typically with a hopstand/whirlpool you are agitating the wort so you do get better utilization than leaving a flameout addition sitting overnight to cool
 
In case anyone else is interested, Im going to be bottling the remainder of this OJ DIPA using my beer gun sometime next week. I wasnt joking about trying to get rid of it before the absurd hop character starts to fade.

I could probably mail out a dozen bottles or so. Someone would need to help me out with how to invoice someone using paypal or whats the easiest way to pay shipping though
 
I'd be interested in some yeast samples. Personally I find shipping beer a PITA. I would pack a bottle well bubble wrapped in a smallish box, take to UPS and get a quote. Mark it up for PP and offer it. In PM's exchange paypal info. Take to UPS and ship. Tons easier with USPS flat rate boxes but not cool with alcohol.
 
I would love a sample. Just kegged a 5 gal dipa with 18oz in the boil/whirlpool and about 7 oz dry hop. Would be great to compare, I think the hops I got were on the older end and I am lacking aroma that I thought would be there a little stronger. Let me know and I can front some shipping cost on PayPal.

If I have your PayPal account I believe I can just send you funds, I don't think an invoice is required. But I could be wrong
 
zwiller said:
I'd be interested in some yeast samples. Personally I find shipping beer a PITA. I would pack a bottle well bubble wrapped in a smallish box, take to UPS and get a quote. Mark it up for PP and offer it. In PM's exchange paypal info. Take to UPS and ship. Tons easier with USPS flat rate boxes but not cool with alcohol.
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Thanks great idea. I was considering jsut using a small cube-ish USPS box and put in a 4pack to include other stuff to try and just have them be none the wiser. When I empty the keg I can PM people
 
Made a brew yesterday with a bittering charge as a FWH and then added 8 ounces for a one hour WP beginning at a temp of 170* and letting it natural cool without the wort chiller.

Looking forward to how this turns out! It's only a 2.5 gallon batch size.
 
So glad I stumbled upon this thread as I'm putting together a recipe for a Citra/Mosaic IPA right now.

A lot of great info here & congrats m00ps on crafting a killer beer. I'd love to try some.

I've never done a hopstand but plan on trying for this batch. But I'm confused. Isn't DMS a factor in this? I had always read and heard that you should get your wort post-boil to pitching temp as quick as you can to alleviate any DMS. Does that thinking no longer hold up?

Also, when you say you're gonna do a hopstand for 30 mins @ 130 - are you keeping the kettle on low to hold that temp or just letting it naturally cool down? So the hopstand starts at 130 and the temp decreases over the 30 minutes.

:rockin:
 
lilbova3 said:
Made a brew yesterday with a bittering charge as a FWH and then added 8 ounces for a one hour WP beginning at a temp of 170* and letting it natural cool without the wort chiller.

Looking forward to how this turns out! It's only a 2.5 gallon batch size.
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Just an update, bottled this yesterday and the aroma and flavor were great! I did not dry hop this IPA and I thought the aroma was still on par with a dry hopped beer. We'll see how it tastes after being carbed. I'll keep you posted.
 
So after reading this thread and doing some more investigating I've formulated the recipe for my next batch, a Mosaic Citra IPA. Let me know if anything looks off or could be improved upon. Am I benefiting from a 140F hopstand or should I double up the 180F? Too much hops for 4 Gallons?

Mosaic Citra IPA

4 Gallons

8 Lbs (67%) American 2-Row
2 Lbs (17%) Wheat Malt
1 Lbs (8%) Carapils(body)
1 Lb (8%) Flaked Oats (mouthfeel)

1 oz Warrior 16% @ 30 min - BOIL
2.00 oz Mosaic @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
2.00 oz Citra @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Citra @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Mosaic - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days

London Ale III 1318 @ 66F

OG 1.071
FG 1.021
IBU 65.10
SRM 4.80
ABV 6.60%
 
i'd probably do flameout and 180 but i've never gone to 140...give it a try!

your fg will be much lower than 1.021 though.
 
I would do the hopstand at 180F. 140F seems too low to me, basically like a warm dry hop. I personally like to do a flameout and 180F addition. I think if you onyl did 140F, you would barely be pulling out the flavors you want.

And that is certainly not too much hops for 4 gallons
 
I think you will find diminishing returns.
You could probably get similar taste/aroma with at least 25% fewer hops.
I suspect that 4 ounces of hop stand and 2 ounces of dry hop would give similar results.

ShaLaH said:
So after reading this thread and doing some more investigating I've formulated the recipe for my next batch, a Mosaic Citra IPA. Let me know if anything looks off or could be improved upon. Am I benefiting from a 140F hopstand or should I double up the 180F? Too much hops for 4 Gallons?

Mosaic Citra IPA

4 Gallons

8 Lbs (67%) American 2-Row
2 Lbs (17%) Wheat Malt
1 Lbs (8%) Carapils(body)
1 Lb (8%) Flaked Oats (mouthfeel)

1 oz Warrior 16% @ 30 min - BOIL
2.00 oz Mosaic @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
2.00 oz Citra @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Citra @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Mosaic - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days

London Ale III 1318 @ 66F

OG 1.071
FG 1.021
IBU 65.10
SRM 4.80
ABV 6.60%
Click to expand...
 
Sure you can pull out the same amount of taste by manipulating boil additions. But the idea with a hopstand is you are able to get flavor without bitterness. Yes it takes mroe hops to achieve the same vibrant flavor. But that flavor does not come entailed with bracing bitterness. So you can basically go as high as you want and dont end up with something like Stone RuinTen (which I enjoyed BTW but I would much rather drink one of my huge hopstanded IPAs over anything they make)
 
Thanks all for the input.

Maybe I'll revise the hop additions like this:

1 oz Warrior 16% @ 30 min - BOIL
1.00 oz Mosaic @ FLAMEOUT
1.00 oz Citra @ FLAMEOUT
1.00 oz Mosaic @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Citra @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic - DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - DRY HOP 3 Days

If the aroma isn't quite where I want it to be, I can throw another oz or two to
dry hop in the keg. Is 30 minutes an optimal Hop Stand duration?
 
ShaLaH said:
So after reading this thread and doing some more investigating I've formulated the recipe for my next batch, a Mosaic Citra IPA. Let me know if anything looks off or could be improved upon. Am I benefiting from a 140F hopstand or should I double up the 180F? Too much hops for 4 Gallons?

Mosaic Citra IPA

4 Gallons

8 Lbs (67%) American 2-Row
2 Lbs (17%) Wheat Malt
1 Lbs (8%) Carapils(body)
1 Lb (8%) Flaked Oats (mouthfeel)

1 oz Warrior 16% @ 30 min - BOIL
2.00 oz Mosaic @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
2.00 oz Citra @ 180F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Citra @ 140F - HOP STAND for 30 mins
1.00 oz Mosaic - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 1st DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Mosaic - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days
1.00 oz Citra - 2nd DRY HOP 3 Days

London Ale III 1318 @ 66F

OG 1.071
FG 1.021
IBU 65.10
SRM 4.80
ABV 6.60%
Click to expand...


If you're going to have a bittering charge then just do a WP and not add anymore hops to the boil then I'd just throw them all in at once rather than spread it out.

m00ps is right that at 140* you won't get much from the hops in 30 mins. Anything under 170* will pull the hop oils out but not isomerize them, so it won't add any bitterness. Then the cooler it gets the less the hop oils get pulled out and the longer you have to hop stand, which is fine if you don't mind letting the wort sit for a long time. Kinda like I did with a WP starting at 170* and letting it naturally cool for one hour.

If you do throw hops in at flameout you will still get some bitterness. Just figure that in. A lot of people assume it as a 10 minute boil addition.

I like this original hop amount compared to your new one. I don't think you'd be disappointed! Just throw them all in together at 170*!
 
Thanks for all the feedback gentlemen (and ladies?)

I'll stew on this for a bit, I'll probably go back to the original hop amount. Really excited to put this new info to work and brew it.

A lot of new things happening for this batch: First time using a refractometer, adjusting water profile (thanks Ward Labs), using a ph meter to check mash ph, hop schedule, & fermenting in corny kegs. Psyched!
 
ShaLaH said:
Thanks for all the feedback gentlemen (and ladies?)



I'll stew on this for a bit, I'll probably go back to the original hop amount. Really excited to put this new info to work and brew it.



A lot of new things happening for this batch: First time using a refractometer, adjusting water profile (thanks Ward Labs), using a ph meter to check mash ph, hop schedule, & fermenting in corny kegs. Psyched!
Click to expand...


Looking at your grist too, you may want to think of dropping the Carapils a little. It is a low lovibond and shouldn't impart too much sweetness but 8% could still be a little high. I think 5% or less would be good.
 
lilbova3 said:
If you're going to have a bittering charge then just do a WP and not add anymore hops to the boil then I'd just throw them all in at once rather than spread it out.

m00ps is right that at 140* you won't get much from the hops in 30 mins. Anything under 170* will pull the hop oils out but not isomerize them, so it won't add any bitterness. Then the cooler it gets the less the hop oils get pulled out and the longer you have to hop stand, which is fine if you don't mind letting the wort sit for a long time. Kinda like I did with a WP starting at 170* and letting it naturally cool for one hour.

If you do throw hops in at flameout you will still get some bitterness. Just figure that in. A lot of people assume it as a 10 minute boil addition.

I like this original hop amount compared to your new one. I don't think you'd be disappointed! Just throw them all in together at 170*!
Click to expand...


Pretty much this is what I did. On my Citra IPA, I did an 1oz Magnum for 60 minute boil. Then 2oz Citra at flameout. Then cooled to 170 and added 4oz of Citra whirlpooled for 1 hour. 3oz Citra dry hop 7 days. Came out great. Had a friend from work comment it reminded him of beers from where he grew up. I asked where he grew up and he said Vermont. He asked if I had heard of The Alchemist. Best complement I have ever received, lol!
 
I whirlpool hopped a dark ale, 2.5 gallon batch using 1-1/2 ounces of hops, used the remaining half ounce of those plus another 1/4 oz of CTZ in the dry-hop, and really got amazing flavour & aroma out of them.

IOW, I agree with ArcLight, 4 ounces in your whirlpool & 2 in the dry-hop will give you plenty of in-yo-FACE hops character!
 
So I didn't account for my groundwater being much colder at this time of the year than last time I brewed, and I chilled down to 110F without noticing (boiling down to 110 in under 10 minutes...). I already had a blend of hops measured out and in one container for the hopstand, so I didn't want to put them back into a bag, and decided to go for it anyhow. Decided on 45 minutes because of the lower temp. Anybody have experience doing a hopstand at that low of a temp?
 
lowtones84 said:
So I didn't account for my groundwater being much colder at this time of the year than last time I brewed, and I chilled down to 110F without noticing (boiling down to 110 in under 10 minutes...). I already had a blend of hops measured out and in one container for the hopstand, so I didn't want to put them back into a bag, and decided to go for it anyhow. Decided on 45 minutes because of the lower temp. Anybody have experience doing a hopstand at that low of a temp?
Click to expand...

I can't say that I have experience w/ hopstands at this low of a temp, but I would think that you aren't going to get much flavor from this addition, probably just aroma.
 
yeah 110F is about where I get impatient and just transfer the damn thing into a fermentor and let it cool overnight. Must be pretty cold in New England bby now
 
Tasted a bottle of my 8 oz whirlpool in a 2.5 gallon batch and got a very juicy character from the beer. Was trying to figure out what exactly it was but wasn't sure of the flavor I was getting.

I thought it kind of had a sweet juiciness to it. Like the hops flavor added some sweetness. FG was 1.009 so I know it wasn't from the malt. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed but it could be because of me being impatient and trying one only after 10 days and chilling for only one day.

I was hoping for a little more dankness in the flavor and aroma, although I know I didn't dry hop and that could have provided some dank aroma.

Hops used were 4oz Galaxy, 2oz Equinox, 1oz Citra and 1oz Nelson.
 

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