Hop Stand/Whirlpool - Getting great hop aroma/flavor

[MadHomebrewer]

Tasted a bottle of my 8 oz whirlpool in a 2.5 gallon batch and got a very juicy character from the beer. Was trying to figure out what exactly it was but wasn't sure of the flavor I was getting.

I thought it kind of had a sweet juiciness to it. Like the hops flavor added some sweetness. FG was 1.009 so I know it wasn't from the malt. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed but it could be because of me being impatient and trying one only after 10 days and chilling for only one day.

I was hoping for a little more dankness in the flavor and aroma, although I know I didn't dry hop and that could have provided some dank aroma.

Hops used were 4oz Galaxy, 2oz Equinox, 1oz Citra and 1oz Nelson.

Funny I had a similar situation. I tried a bottle of mine after a week and it was sweet. Got me worried but I waited another week and a half and it was money. It really had me worried too. Had a couple homebrew club members that are BJCP qualified taste. One said give it another 6 weeks and it will be at its prime.

 

[lilbova3]

Funny I had a similar situation. I tried a bottle of mine after a week and it was sweet. Got me worried but I waited another week and a half and it was money. It really had me worried too. Had a couple homebrew club members that are BJCP qualified taste. One said give it another 6 weeks and it will be at its prime.

I can believe it being good in maybe another week or two but waiting six weeks for a bottled IPA, I'd be worried about the flavor not being there anymore!

We'll see what happens.

 

[gwapogorilla]

Just popped the cap on a couple of beers I brewed a couple months ago, using 9 oz. El Dorado for a 40 min. WP at 175-180*.

OMFG!!!!! The aroma is incredible! My buddy could small my glass from across the table. Flavor is amazing, and the bitterness actually pretty tame.

My buddy said he actually preferred my beer over 'Psuedo Sue"...which is a mighty nice craft beer here in Iowa, that uses citra hops. I am guessing it is close to 3 Floyds Zombie Dust.

 

[m00ps]

Just popped the cap on a couple of beers I brewed a couple months ago, using 9 oz. El Dorado for a 40 min. WP at 175-180*.

OMFG!!!!! The aroma is incredible! My buddy could small my glass from across the table. Flavor is amazing, and the bitterness actually pretty tame.

My buddy said he actually preferred my beer over 'Psuedo Sue"...which is a mighty nice craft beer here in Iowa, that uses citra hops. I am guessing it is close to 3 Floyds Zombie Dust.

One day, homebrewers will finally come around to the power of a big fat hopstand...until then, we can just enjoy the insane hop character and freshness we are able to achieve

 

[gwapogorilla]

I would do the hopstand at 180F. 140F seems too low to me, basically like a warm dry hop. I personally like to do a flameout and 180F addition. I think if you onyl did 140F, you would barely be pulling out the flavors you want.

And that is certainly not too much hops for 4 gallons

Yep, your spot on. I have done WP at 145*. Beer had no aroma, mild flavor and almost no bitterness...say around 12-15 IBU is my guess(used 3 oz. various varieties).

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Just popped the cap on a couple of beers I brewed a couple months ago, using 9 oz. El Dorado for a 40 min. WP at 175-180*.



OMFG!!!!! The aroma is incredible! My buddy could small my glass from across the table. Flavor is amazing, and the bitterness actually pretty tame.



My buddy said he actually preferred my beer over 'Psuedo Sue"...which is a mighty nice craft beer here in Iowa, that uses citra hops. I am guessing it is close to 3 Floyds Zombie Dust.

Funny thing, I was finally able to get some zombie dust down here in FL. I was a little let down too after having my own Citra IPA that came out fantastic. I was pretty happy by what I was able to pull off.

 

[m00ps]

Funny thing, I was finally able to get some zombie dust down here in FL. I was a little let down too after having my own Citra IPA that came out fantastic. I was pretty happy by what I was able to pull off.

well if you are using a large hopstand addition, I wouldnt even say its a fair comparison. Your IPA is likely much fresher than zombie dust and you probably had more oz/gal of hops than a "hoppy pale ale."

Ive had <30day old zombie dust. Its definitely a great beer. But it cant touch the hop character you can potentially achieve homebrewing level, as long as you know what you're doing. Like, I still really want to try heady topper at some point but, even if its fresh... Im guessing its going to be a letdown

 

[Neptune]

I'm up in Maine and I brew in my (uninsulated) garage... This time of year it takes less than 2 hours to get down to 170 from boil... You think a flameout addition would add too much bitterness because of the time between 180-212? I'm just wondering because I don't use a chiller, I just let the wort cool naturally and it would be nice to not have to monitor and wait for it to hit 180.

It's not so much laziness as it is forgetfulness... honest!

 

[lilbova3]

I'm up in Maine and I brew in my (uninsulated) garage... This time of year it takes less than 2 hours to get down to 170 from boil... You think a flameout addition would add too much bitterness because of the time between 180-212? I'm just wondering because I don't use a chiller, I just let the wort cool naturally and it would be nice to not have to monitor and wait for it to hit 180.

It's not so much laziness as it is forgetfulness... honest!

I would assume that you might loose too much aroma and flavor with it staying that high for that long and it would add more bitterness, yes. I would recommend paying a little closer attention and adding it at the proper temp. Maybe someone else can confirm or back me up with that assumption.

What is your batch size to have it take more than two hours to cool in Maine!?

 

[m00ps]

I'm up in Maine and I brew in my (uninsulated) garage... This time of year it takes less than 2 hours to get down to 170 from boil... You think a flameout addition would add too much bitterness because of the time between 180-212? I'm just wondering because I don't use a chiller, I just let the wort cool naturally and it would be nice to not have to monitor and wait for it to hit 180.

It's not so much laziness as it is forgetfulness... honest!

I did my last ipa with a 2 hours hop stand and went out to dinner. Was at 140 when I got back and its still not bitter with close to 2lbs of hops.. Seriously you can't overdo it

 

[Singletrack]

This time of year it takes less than 2 hours to get down to 170 from boil... I just let the wort cool naturally and it would be nice to not have to monitor and wait for it to hit 180.

Set a timer for 30 min. You lose some precious oils if you add at flameout. It's not really the added bitterness; it's the loss of flavor/aroma.

 

[Neptune]

It's probably been said and repeated, but a light bulb finally went off in my thick head. :smack:

So the oils from the hops stick around in the 170-180-ish range and provide flavor without too much bitterness. Any higher and they get cooked off and add to the bitterness. Any lower and we're adding mostly aroma with no flavors. Is this about right?

This has been an awesome thread! Thanks again for the input. My next batch is gonna be a big 'ole nasty IPA. Can't wait!

 

[ncbrewer]

So the oils from the hops stick around in the 170-180-ish range and provide flavor without too much bitterness. Any higher and they get cooked off and add to the bitterness. Any lower and we're adding mostly aroma with no flavors. Is this about right?

Higher temps work as long as you keep the lid on, but they do add bitterness. It seems to take some experimentation to find out how much utilization you'll get at your temperatures. I hop stand at about 190, and it seems to be the equivalent to a boil with a 0.3 factor for time for me. I get good flavor and aroma.

 

[lilbova3]

It's probably been said and repeated, but a light bulb finally went off in my thick head. :smack:

So the oils from the hops stick around in the 170-180-ish range and provide flavor without too much bitterness. Any higher and they get cooked off and add to the bitterness. Any lower and we're adding mostly aroma with no flavors. Is this about right?

This has been an awesome thread! Thanks again for the input. My next batch is gonna be a big 'ole nasty IPA. Can't wait!

Everything I've read has stated that at temps below 175*, the wort will extract hop oils but won't add any bitterness. I'm no scientist and haven't done any IBU testing but have taken everyone's word for it. Anything above 180* will still extract some bitterness and you will lose some hop oils.

Hop stands under 175* will add flavor and aroma to a beer. Make sure to keep the lid on when doing the hop stand.

If you do a hop stand at a lower temperature, example 150*, you should hop stand longer. Maybe for an hour. If you keep it in the higher range, example 175*, you will not need to hop stand as long. 30-45 minutes would suffice.

 

[Bosh]

Bottling a pale ale with a big 180 hop stand today, do people turn the burner on low to maintain temp during the hop stand or just let the temp continue to fall? Have to use two pots to get a full boil so my temp probably falls faster than most.

 

[Singletrack]

I do not reheat. I tell myself the higher temp starts the extraction, and the lower temp at the end prevents volatilization. Mainly, trying to save energy and water (for cooling).

 

[JLeuck64]

I too have noticed some difference by trial and error and also a little experimentation with hop stands. I use a hop basket during the boil and my technique is to lift it out after the boil to get the whirlpool going. After the whirlpool settles and I am ready to drain I typically put the hop basket back into the BK. A few times we have left it out to see if it makes any noticeable difference in the taste/bitterness and I believe it does!

 

[m00ps]

ive found that even flameout additions in a hopstand as long as an hour barely add any bitterness, Last double IPA I did had 8oz at 0min and another 8oz at 180F. Only bittering addition was 1oz apollo at 30min. Its less bitter than say sierra nevada pale ale. Much more hoppy obviously...

 

[orangemen5]

ive found that even flameout additions in a hopstand as long as an hour barely add any bitterness, Last double IPA I did had 8oz at 0min and another 8oz at 180F. Only bittering addition was 1oz apollo at 30min. Its less bitter than say sierra nevada pale ale. Much more hoppy obviously...

I haven't noticed any significant bitterness added to a flameout hop stand either.
The big breweries are doing their whirlpool and hop stands at flameout.
We homebrewers do have the advantage of hop standing at a specific temp.
I've done hop stands from 180F-210F. Still haven't come to a conclusion of what temp is better though.

 

[Neptune]

To those of you that are doing 0 min hop stands without noticing extra bitterness... Are you chilling or letting it cool naturally after the flameout addition?

 

[arnobg]

Can someone explain to me the difference between steep vs whirlpool etc. I understand these are both forms of hop stands but is a steep the actual steeping of hops during the hop stand? I have always just thrown them in with a hop bag and created my own whirlpool with my stirring spoon.

I'm also curious about the natural cooling or using a chiller to get to 180.

 

[Wolfbayne]

Bumping this so I can read it more thoroughly later. Great write up.

 

[Neptune]

So I finally kicked a keg that freed up a line for me to try out an IPA that was inspired by this thread... It is BY FAR the best IPA that I've brewed to date.

I know some of you would consider this a weak hop schedule (looking at you m00ps ) but it was a pretty big one by my standards. Here's what I did on a 60 minute boil:

0.50 oz Warrior (FWH)

2.00 oz Amarillo (0 min)
2.00 oz Cascade (0 min)
0.25 oz Warrior (0 min)

Cooled naturally... no chiller.

2.00 oz Amarillo (dry hop)
2.00 oz Cascade (dry hop)

I called this one "Force Awakens IPA" because I'm a dork. The grain bill if anyone is interested:

13 lbs 2-row
1 lb. flaked wheat
8 oz biscuit malt
4 oz crystal 20
4 oz crystal 60

OG 1.065

Anyway... this came out great. Just enough bitterness, and a really nice citrus/floral explosion flavor and smell. This will be on a regular rotation here at Neptune Brewing (maybe I'll even get crazy and kick the hop schedule up another notch).

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread

 

[Dog House Brew]

ive found that even flameout additions in a hopstand as long as an hour barely add any bitterness, Last double IPA I did had 8oz at 0min and another 8oz at 180F. Only bittering addition was 1oz apollo at 30min. Its less bitter than say sierra nevada pale ale. Much more hoppy obviously...

I agree on the no bitterness. I noticed earlier in this thread you posted using Belma. I have a few pounds of Belma and haven't used them I take it that your liking Belma. I've had others tell me they only use it as a bittering hop. They said they got almost no aroma. How do you describe Belma? Thanks for all the info on here

 

[m00ps]

I agree on the no bitterness. I noticed earlier in this thread you posted using Belma. I have a few pounds of Belma and haven't used them I take it that your liking Belma. I've had others tell me they only use it as a bittering hop. They said they got almost no aroma. How do you describe Belma? Thanks for all the info on here

Belma is pretty subtle compared to typical ipa hops. Probably need twice the amount of it compared to something like citra to have it stand out. Would be most at home in a wheat or Belgian imo. But I still use it in ipas for its unique flavor. Its totally got strawberry, blueberry, peachy flavors. Very different in anything you can find in an ipa...at least for now

 

[Dog House Brew]

Sounds like Belma could be good in a Saison

 

[m00ps]

Belma is great in saisons. I recently did one with Pacific Gem, Belma, and WLP585/WY3711. Super tart and nice rounded berry-like fruit character

 

[jleiii]

I found this thread recently, and very interested. I am a major hop aficionado and on my last brew got the best batch so far.
I was trying to clone one of my favorite IPAs and get some 'practice' for an upcoming club clone competition. While I was somewhat off on my clone, it was amazing. Given what I've read here I may change the schedule and see what the impact is. The tasting post chill was not promising as the bittering seemed to strong, but in the end it was not. Est was 78 IBUs, no clue if I hit it though. I use beersmith and always adjust the the numbers right from hop bags, so I'll assume it's close.

5.5 gal batch, Grain bill:
12.75 lbs Pilsner
1.5 lbs Munich
1 lb C20
Mashed at 152 for an hour, but skipped using my RIMS, just because. Still not convinced it's giving me the uniformity I'm looking for yet. 90 Min boil for the pilsner.

Hop schedule, most bittering was from mid point additions.
1.0 Hallertauer 60m (10 IBU)
1.0 Chinook 35m (35 IBU)
1.0 Columbus 30m (31 IBU)
1.0 Hallertauer 1m
1.0 Nugget 1m
1.0 Cascade dry hop 10 days
1.0 Citra dry hop 7 days

I removed the 60, 35 and 30 hops at chill time (in a hop basket), but left the others till the chilling was done. The later hops were in voile bags and hung from handles during the chilldown. I use an IC with a stirrer so I get very rapid cooling. I removed the chiller, but left the hop bags till it settled, and pulled them just before transfer to the carboy.

My efficiency was the highest yet, and since I'm used to lower numbers, I overshot the target OG by a few points at 1.072. Used 1056 on a starter, and had several krausen peaks over about 5 days. Transferred to secondary for a week, then kegged. Dry hop additions were in the keg, and due to a vacation it was 4 days longer before I tapped it, and holy hops batman, it was amazing. Left the hops in another week or so, then pulled them. This was only my second kegging and aside from the carbonation learning curve, was a very positive result.

So given the hop schedule above, anyone have suggestions on modifying the long boil additions to get a similar flavor/aroma with most bittering up front, and not much in the middle? I'm thinking a higher alpha hop at 60m (Brewers Gold?), and maybe moving the 35m & 30m to nearer the end, and possibly using less since I won't have as much aroma loss to the boil.

 

[slym2none]

It's said, but not proven, that hops get the best flavour at around 20 minutes, and the best aroma around 5. Anything before that should, according to the new way of doing things, partially be moved to the bittering addition to make up your IBUs, and then anything left should go to the 20-minute and later additions.

So, moving the 35- and 30-minute additions does not sound like a bad idea.

One word of warning, for everyone - unless you like chewing pine needles, don't use Chinook alone in a hop-stand. I thought there was supposed to be some citrus/grapefruit to that hops, but all I get is pine, pine, pine. I used 2 ounces for 35 minutes in 2.5 gallons of wort, starting at 175 degrees. Not a bad beer overall, just not for me.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

I found this thread recently, and very interested. I am a major hop aficionado and on my last brew got the best batch so far.

I was trying to clone one of my favorite IPAs and get some 'practice' for an upcoming club clone competition. While I was somewhat off on my clone, it was amazing. Given what I've read here I may change the schedule and see what the impact is. The tasting post chill was not promising as the bittering seemed to strong, but in the end it was not. Est was 78 IBUs, no clue if I hit it though. I use beersmith and always adjust the the numbers right from hop bags, so I'll assume it's close.



5.5 gal batch, Grain bill:

12.75 lbs Pilsner

1.5 lbs Munich

1 lb C20

Mashed at 152 for an hour, but skipped using my RIMS, just because. Still not convinced it's giving me the uniformity I'm looking for yet. 90 Min boil for the pilsner.



Hop schedule, most bittering was from mid point additions.

1.0 Hallertauer 60m (10 IBU)

1.0 Chinook 35m (35 IBU)

1.0 Columbus 30m (31 IBU)

1.0 Hallertauer 1m

1.0 Nugget 1m

1.0 Cascade dry hop 10 days

1.0 Citra dry hop 7 days



I removed the 60, 35 and 30 hops at chill time (in a hop basket), but left the others till the chilling was done. The later hops were in voile bags and hung from handles during the chilldown. I use an IC with a stirrer so I get very rapid cooling. I removed the chiller, but left the hop bags till it settled, and pulled them just before transfer to the carboy.



My efficiency was the highest yet, and since I'm used to lower numbers, I overshot the target OG by a few points at 1.072. Used 1056 on a starter, and had several krausen peaks over about 5 days. Transferred to secondary for a week, then kegged. Dry hop additions were in the keg, and due to a vacation it was 4 days longer before I tapped it, and holy hops batman, it was amazing. Left the hops in another week or so, then pulled them. This was only my second kegging and aside from the carbonation learning curve, was a very positive result.



So given the hop schedule above, anyone have suggestions on modifying the long boil additions to get a similar flavor/aroma with most bittering up front, and not much in the middle? I'm thinking a higher alpha hop at 60m (Brewers Gold?), and maybe moving the 35m & 30m to nearer the end, and possibly using less since I won't have as much aroma loss to the boil.

I would go 1oz of magnum @60min. Chinook and Columbus @ flameout cool to170 degree and whirlpool or steep the rest for 30 min. Dry hop how you like I usually only dry hop for 5 to 7 days.

 

[jleiii]

Slym2none and madhomebrewer, thanks for the feed back. I've got some time to look at it before the next brew. I'm trying to stick with the hops I have to use them up. Just too many on hand, such as the Brewers Gold. It seemed like a good choice for any flavor left through the boil.

 

[Bosh]

Gravity sample of beer inspired by this thread is tasting amazing, let's hope it stays that way

What are people's thoughts on applying these kind of techniques to more European-style hops? I haven't done so myself but reading tasting comments from people who used large amounts of European style hops (especially Saaz) they ended up with grass bombs.

This seems especially the case with dry hopping. I'd like to experiment with a massive hop stand of EKG or Saaz (have a half pound of each in my freezer) but I'm leery about ending up with a beer that tastes like lawn clippings.

 

[Finlandbrews]

I just brewed a Heady Topper clone today which is my first time using hop extract but I added those at 90m. That said everything else was flameout/hop stand additions and the sample i tried after chilling was unique. Definitely absent the "green" flavors that come with a 90m addition of magnum or warrior.

Anyway planning to do a Belgian wit with galaxy hops soon and I'm going to put these theories to test. Will be doing a 15m addition and then all flameout/hop stand additions.

Is heady topper made with some hop extract?

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Is heady topper made with some hop extract?

From what I understand, heady uses hop extract for the bittering charge. No hops actually go in the boil. All hop additions are whirlpool and dry hops.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Interesting... I've never tried that Heady Topper but one day I'll make it across the atlantic... I have 3 questions regarding whirlpool:

1) We speak about the benefits of doing a whirlpool hop addition for great aromas and flavors in the finished beer... My question here is: does the effect of the whirlpool keep more aromas and volatile oils inside the wort and that is why we talk about "whirlpool hop addition" as being beneficial for increased aromas and flavors? If that is not the case, is it only because the temperature has lowered and we use the term "whirlpool hop addition" to indicate the moment at which we do the hop addition?

2) If the effect of the whirlpool is beneficial does it mean that the faster it would be the better?

3) I'm still seaching for an efficient and practical way for doing whirlpool with my system... Does anybody know how great the Norcal whirlpool/aerating paddle is? What systems do you?

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Interesting... I've never tried that Heady Topper but one day I'll make it across the atlantic... I have 3 questions regarding whirlpool:



1) We speak about the benefits of doing a whirlpool hop addition for great aromas and flavors in the finished beer... My question here is: does the effect of the whirlpool keep more aromas and volatile oils inside the wort and that is why we talk about "whirlpool hop addition" as being beneficial for increased aromas and flavors? If that is not the case, is it only because the temperature has lowered and we use the term "whirlpool hop addition" to indicate the moment at which we do the hop addition?



2) If the effect of the whirlpool is beneficial does it mean that the faster it would be the better?



3) I'm still seaching for an efficient and practical way for doing whirlpool with my system... Does anybody know how great the Norcal whirlpool/aerating paddle is? What systems do you?

This should help explain most of your questions: https://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[Brettomomyces]

Interesting... I've never tried that Heady Topper but one day I'll make it across the atlantic... I have 3 questions regarding whirlpool:

1) We speak about the benefits of doing a whirlpool hop addition for great aromas and flavors in the finished beer... My question here is: does the effect of the whirlpool keep more aromas and volatile oils inside the wort and that is why we talk about "whirlpool hop addition" as being beneficial for increased aromas and flavors? If that is not the case, is it only because the temperature has lowered and we use the term "whirlpool hop addition" to indicate the moment at which we do the hop addition?

2) If the effect of the whirlpool is beneficial does it mean that the faster it would be the better?

3) I'm still seaching for an efficient and practical way for doing whirlpool with my system... Does anybody know how great the Norcal whirlpool/aerating paddle is? What systems do you?

1) It's more to indicate the moment at which we add the hops, during the whirlpool step. The act of physically agitating helps I'm sure, but for doing small homebrew batches it is not nearly as significant as when a commercial brewery is whirlpooling a 15BBL or larger batch.

2) Again I can't see a huge difference with this either way, it certainly wouldn't hurt but probably would not help much.

3) Any tool you want to use to spin the wort would be fine. On my system I recirculate the wort using a pump back into the top of the kettle and using a 90 degree elbow fitting which causes the liquid to spin.

 

[lilbova3]

Unfortunately I've been having some issues with oxidation. The main culprit being that I don't purge any of my vessels but even so I should be making pretty decent beer. I feel I have a very sound process and have made some decent IPAs in the past. I rely on the CO2 from fermentation to protect my beer and while packaging I try to move as quickly and efficiently as possible.

I've been looking into these essential oils we are trying to keep in our beer and finding they are very prone to oxidation. I'm thinking of scaling back my late boil additions and not letting them sit as long so I can still grab some of the oils for flavor and aroma. Has anyone else been having these issues?

I believe I read somewhere once that Stone found a sweet spot of around 1.6 oz hops per gallon (please correct me if I'm wrong?). Some of the recipes I've tried and seen on here are upwards to 3 oz/gal. Which I'd love to continue doing but just can't seem to do without purging or kegging. I know many recommend it but it just doesn't seem to be working with my setup.

Thoughts, ideas?