Hop seeds in my cones?

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That looks like a seed. Its not going to impact home brewing, lupulin is present, your female hop plant just got pollenated by a male hop plant. Accidents happen, even in the plant world.
 
triethylborane - thanks a lot! I have also 6 other varieties growing including Centennial and Chinook. Apparently all are pollinated... are seeds going to change the flavour profile of these hops? I don't care about AA % as I'm going to use commercial hops for bittering. I was planning to use my hops for aroma and dry hopping but now with these seed present I'm puzzled if it will be all right...
 
Alexy said:
are seeds going to change the flavour profile of these hops? I don't care about AA % as I'm going to use commercial hops for bittering. I was planning to use my hops for aroma and dry hopping but now with these seed present I'm puzzled if it will be all right...
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I don't know if the flavor profile will be changed or not, but my guess is that your brews will be fine. Here is some info, for what it is worth:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_...q=page 69&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q=page 69&f=false
 
I found also this:

"It is technically difficult to demonstrate why seeded whole hops could pose a problem for the brewer who practices traditional kettle brewing. The seeds are not crushed, and little if any seed fat is leached from intact hop seeds. Barley malt or grain adjuncts contribute far greater quantities of seed fats to the brew. Experienced taste panels, however, seem to be able to detect differences among test brews made with seeded or seedless hops. These differences, however, are not consistently in favor of seedless hops, although many traditional brewers are biased in that direction.

Seeded hops may, however, pose a problem for hop processors. When hops are ground to make powders, pellets, or extracts, seed fats leach out at various processing stages and ultimately can end up in the beer. To overcome this problem, processors developed elaborate deseeding techniques, and most processed hop products today contain little hop seed fats. The added expense of deseeding, passed on to the consumer, may be avoided by growing seedless hops. Recent sales contracts for high-alpha and aroma hops in Oregon emphasize reduced seed content."

https://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.1/haunold.html
 
Alexy said:
I found also this:

"It is technically difficult to demonstrate why seeded whole hops could pose a problem for the brewer who practices traditional kettle brewing. The seeds are not crushed, and little if any seed fat is leached from intact hop seeds. Barley malt or grain adjuncts contribute far greater quantities of seed fats to the brew. Experienced taste panels, however, seem to be able to detect differences among test brews made with seeded or seedless hops. These differences, however, are not consistently in favor of seedless hops, although many traditional brewers are biased in that direction.

Seeded hops may, however, pose a problem for hop processors. When hops are ground to make powders, pellets, or extracts, seed fats leach out at various processing stages and ultimately can end up in the beer. To overcome this problem, processors developed elaborate deseeding techniques, and most processed hop products today contain little hop seed fats. The added expense of deseeding, passed on to the consumer, may be avoided by growing seedless hops. Recent sales contracts for high-alpha and aroma hops in Oregon emphasize reduced seed content."

https://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.1/haunold.html
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The part regarding "experienced taste panels" detecting the seeded or seedless hop to whatever extent, is intriguing. The link doesn't work for me so I can't see if there is a citation to a source regarding that.
 
There is no citation.

I also found interesting extract of research done at Weihenstephan. (can't find the full paper)

They compared usage of seeded vs seedless cones. Curious what enzymatic activity difference means in practice...

"The results did show no difference concerning the usual hop attributes. As well the aglycone content, hop oil content and sugar content have been similar compared between seeded and unseeded hop samples. But enzyme activity was different."

http://www.blq-weihenstephan.de/fileadmin/pdf/news/EBC_2015_Zarnkow.pdf
 
Another reason why seedless hops may be preferred. This is obviously about $$$.

I did analysis ;) of a wet Saaz hope cone.

Total cone weight: 0,97g
Seeds weight: 0,16g

That's 16,5% of the mass. I'm sure after it's dried % share of seeds will be even higher!

Now, let's assume it will jump to 30% - why would you prefer to pay full hop price to get 30% of biomass which isn't contributing much... that's substantial.


View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1504432582.174068.jpg
 
Got a response, now Ill have to find out where to get that publication!

1bkh.png
 
If you are just a home brewer who is using his own home grown hops.... I don't think there will be a problem. I've seen a batch of beer being brewed with homegrown hops before where at the end of the boil there was a whole group of seeds floating together on the top of the boil. It didn't seem to be a problem, as long as the lupulin is still there. Just scoop off the seeds at the end
 
Alexy said:
Now, let's assume it will jump to 30% - why would you prefer to pay full hop price to get 30% of biomass which isn't contributing much... that's substantial.
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But historically there was no such thing as "full hop price" - they were bought on alpha content. So if 1000 cones of unseeded hops weighed 1000g and 1000 cones of seeded hops weighed 1100g, you wouldn't pay €10 for the first lot and €11 for the second lot - you would pay €10 for the 1100g of seeded ones, as they contained the same amount of alpha acids as the 1000g of unseeded. You would have 1000g of 11% alpha in the seedless, and 1100g of 10% alpha in the seeded (very roughly).

This Swiss study could not find any effect of seeds on taste :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1978.tb03887.x/pdf
 
Thanks Northern Brewer - this makes a lot of sense! :) And thanks for sharing the link!

triethylborane - thanks for checking with Dr. Zarnkow! Now, the only problem is that Brewing Science is a paid (not cheap at all!) subscription magazine.
 
Alexy said:
Hi,

First time hop grower here.

I was checking my Saaz cones today and I think I have seeds inside them? Could you please have a look and confirm? I have no male plants in my neighbourhood but I've read that hop pollen can air travel for miles...

If these are seeds, are these cones useless?
View attachment 412582

Thanks!
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Uhhh try to grow some of the seeds! You do not know who the father was, maybe the result will be awesome!

At least it will be very unique.

And who else has his personal hop variety? :)
 
Nice idea, but I have no space left on my rather small backyard :)

I also listened to EP12 of the Brulosophy podcast recently. It was with Hopsteiner. This gave me an idea of what is the journey from a seeded plant to a new variety :) I don't remember exactly but they have grown like 10k seeds to reach a new variety. So it may not be all that easy to grow an interesting crossed variety on your own - still, worth experimenting if I only had space.
 
Taking 10k seeds to make a new variety is not the same as needing 10k seeds to make a new variety. In any selection process, a ton of candidates are hastily scrapped because it makes no economical sense to do a full assay on a full-size initial population.

I don't know what their process is, but typically, that means starting with the easiest/cheapest discrimination methods. Could be the likes of eliminating all those with reduced growth (could be great plants that simply started from a smaller seed with less reserves), leaf imperfection (chlorosis could be caused in a great plant that simply has a slightly different nutrient/pH requirement), presence of disease (could be a great plant that just happened, by bad luck with nature or human actions to have been exposed to very high pathogen loads), presence of pests (same), and so on.

For example, if one of the seedlings had the potential for 5000lb/acre, is immune to all disease and pests, has awesome aroma, 25% alpha acids, and whatever the heck you like, but the seedling does about zero growth in the first year, then it'll likely end up in the bin. Because any sane breeder starts with a much larger offspring pool than what he intends to pay to test for, so as to at least pass the easy/cheap tests to get rid of likely undesirable before the expensive testing comes into play.

The difference between taking 10k seeds to make 1 (or a handful) of cultivars and needing 10k seeds to do so is huge. Besides, it's not in their advantage to encourage people to breed their own. They want you to want their patented hops, so that you'll pay extra for brews that use them, which will incite growers to pay the astronomical fees demanded to grow them, allowing them to milk the hell out of their releases. Hopsteiner doesn't want a new Cascade. They want more Citras, more Simcoes, and such proprietary varieties (I don't think they own those two specifically though). They want people to want their own hops. Given the money they put into this, people doing crosses in their own backyards is not exactly compatible with their objectives. If 1/1000 of home brewers each sowed 10 plants, the hobby breeding scene would be testing a whole lot more seeds (and especially plants) than they are, with incredibly more resources (though, granted, major coordination issues).

If "grow your own hop variety" became a fad, it's just be a matter of time before a couple of individuals, among the (tens of) thousands got awesome specimens, started sharing them with buddies, and eventually seeing them rise to national noteworthyness. The process would be much slower, of course, but a seed's genetics don't change according to how big shot the guy planting it is.
 
Alexy said:
Nice idea, but I have no space left on my rather small backyard :)

I also listened to EP12 of the Brulosophy podcast recently. It was with Hopsteiner. This gave me an idea of what is the journey from a seeded plant to a new variety :) I don't remember exactly but they have grown like 10k seeds to reach a new variety. So it may not be all that easy to grow an interesting crossed variety on your own - still, worth experimenting if I only had space.
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Ah come on, you will have some space for two or three additional plants somewhere... I'm not talking about commercial scales, just planting a few for curiosity.
 
Miraculix said:
Ah come on, you will have some space for two or three additional plants somewhere... I'm not talking about commercial scales, just planting a few for curiosity.
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Downside to this would be the possibility of cultivating more male plants.
 
Alexy said:
triethylborane - thanks for checking with Dr. Zarnkow! Now, the only problem is that Brewing Science is a paid (not cheap at all!) subscription magazine.
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Well, hmm when I get the email from them Ill ask if they can just shoot me a pdf of it. They might do it anyway.



Miraculix said:
You easily spot them, just rip them out when they start building flowers.
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Well, yes, sure. There have been questions about identifying the male racemes, so I think people wouldn't ID them that easily. That is nitpicky of me; I just wouldn't want to burn time growing male plants.
 
Male racemes are very easy to identify, people just aren't used to seeing them. What sucks though is all of the care you've put into growing these plants if you intend on destroying half of them one or two years later.

Of course, you could also just let them be, and benefit from pollination yield boost.
 
YEH! I have found some seeds in my Cascade cones and wonder if anyone reading this knows if hop plants will produce "seeds" without being pollinated? If I am not mistaken, correct me if I am wrong, but cannabis does. If the seeds in these cones are like the eggs from chickens which have never uh, had a good time? then perhaps there is not much to hope for in terms of germination?

There are no hop males anywhere around here AFAIK, but there are lots of male Japanese Hops (not the brewing kind) even on my own property.
I have read they do not cross though. So I wonder....

(I should point out that seed maturity is much later than maturity of cones for brewing, generally) Perhaps part of the reason there are many seedless cones is they are picked before the seeds develope? Someone in the know here... please clarify.
 
@Blue-Frog Seed maturity in general does tend to be following cone maturity, but hop inflorescences also (within a plant) mature at different times, although it's usually on the order of days. It is common in areas where males are present to have seed produced and even have some viable seed at harvest. If you were to order whole cone hops and found seed in them, you would likely be able to germinate a few from there. It all depends on a number of factors.
 
PapaBearJay, Yes.

But what about the white elephant in the room?

Could some of the "seeds" we find be little more than large ovules and not actually true seeds? Store bought chicken eggs are unfertilized but look pretty much the same as fertilized ones. Could we be seeing the same sort of thing with our hop "seeds"? Or does the presence of an enlarged hardened seed-like structure indicate that fertilization actually took place?

Do hops eventually form seed-like structures even in the absence of male hop pollen?

???
 
Blue-Frog said:
There are no hop males anywhere around here AFAIK, but there are lots of male Japanese Hops (not the brewing kind) even on my own property.
I have read they do not cross though. So I wonder....
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You'd be surprised how many wild males there can be hiding in the undergrowth, and each male produces a huge amount of pollen, so I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

You won't get fertile crosses between lupulus and japonicus as the chromosome numbers are different. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that they can produce non-viable seed together, I don't know for certain but if you''ve got a lot on your land then there's a lot of opportunities for pollen to get lucky...
 
Interesting.

So my "seeds" could be unfertile crosss between lupulus and japonicus. There is certainly a lot more japonicus than lupulus here... including several males bigger than the lupulus females. The only other curious thing is that so far, I have only discovered seeds in the cascade. But I wasn't looking, so I will let what is left mature til browned and then examine everything.I won't get any hopes up, but do you think it is absolutely unheard of, or just rare, for fertile crosses to happen between plants with different chromosome numbers? I (think I) know that I. nil x I. purpurea was successful, but can't recall their chromosome numbers.

There could be some wild H. lupulus here, so I haven't ruled that out.

What color can fertile hop seeds be?
 
I've had them go from a dark grey to very pale, almost cream colored. Most are grey-tan colored. Once the burrs are pollinated, a 'baby bump' appears in the cones as they mature. Actually, the bracteole that carries the seed will become much larger than the other in the pair and if you look close at the cones, you can find them pretty easy. I took a few pictures a few years ago and it shows pretty well what happens. The ones on the left are not seeded and the right ones are. Pretty cool actually!

seeded vs unseeded.jpg


seeded vs unseeded 1.jpg
 
Blue-Frog said:
do you think it is absolutely unheard of, or just rare, for fertile crosses to happen between plants with different chromosome numbers? I (think I) know that I. nil x I. purpurea was successful, but can't recall their chromosome numbers.

There could be some wild H. lupulus here, so I haven't ruled that out.
Click to expand...

I've just clocked that you're in Japan, which means you should have wild lupulus in the form of H. lupulus var. cordifolius (or Karahanasou apparently). My money would still be on that rather than japonicus, without ruling out the latter.

If you've got mismatched chromosomes then the only way for cell division to work is to have two or more sets of chromosomes from each parent - polyploidy. Which isn't impossible, but it's much, much rarer than getting viable seed from species with the same number of chromosomes.
 
Thank you both, B-Hoppy and Northern brewer.

B-Hoppy - Have you found the light cream colored seeds just viable as the darker colored ones?

Northern Brewer - I had totally forgotten about H. lupulus var. cordifolius thinking it was somewhere else in asia.

Do you know how they can be differentiated ? or, know perhaps of an online taxonomic key to the genus?
 
I don't know about cordifolius in particular but in general japonicus has five or more lobes on each leaf (but may go down to 3 at the ends of the bine), whereas lupulus generally has fewer (but is more 3-5 than a hard cut-off).

I wouldn't sweat it - it only takes one plant half a mile away to pollinate your bines, and finding the culprit is very much a needle-in-haystack job. Even in Kent, which is supposedly a hotbed of hop sex, you'd struggle to find wild males unless you really go looking for them.
 
Thanks NB. I am just curious who's visiting my girls!

One new find... after becomming specifically interested in the possibility that there might be more seeds in my garden, I checked a few other plants and found a single well formed seed in an Ultra cone.

Ultra is said to be triploid.
And I couldn't cofirm it yet, but I think Cascade is diploid....

Does this shead any light on who the male might be?

Could both the cascade and the Ultra have been fertilized by the same male?

In anycase I will see if anything grows.
 
Yes, Ultra is triploid and Cascade is diploid. Ploidy doesn't shed light on the male parent since neither is a male plant. As NB states HLvarC is native to Japan and pollen can travel long distances. While you might not know where the nearest male is, there probably one about.

Hop(e) for the best!
 
Blue-Frog said:
Thank you both, B-Hoppy and Northern brewer.

B-Hoppy - Have you found the light cream colored seeds just viable as the darker colored ones?

Northern Brewer - I had totally forgotten about H. lupulus var. cordifolius thinking it was somewhere else in asia.

Do you know how they can be differentiated ? or, know perhaps of an online taxonomic key to the genus?
Click to expand...

I really cannot say for sure about the viability by the appearance of the different seeds other than to say that each different genotype tends to have seeds that look unique to itself (genotype A may have all very large and tan colored seeds and genotype B has seeds that are half as big and are dark grey, etc.)

As for morphological differences between the different types, check out this page: https://www.ars.usda.gov/pacific-we...sitory/docs/ncgr-corvallis-humulus-germplasm/. I seem to remember they gave pretty in depth descriptions of the differences but can't seem to locate the exact page,, they may have redone the site recently and omitted that page?
 
ps: these are some photos of a patch of japonicus I came across this past Summer:

Japonicus leaf size.jpg


Japonicus stem tip.jpg


Japonicus climbing.jpg
 

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