High gravity brew - Grainfather

[RickyBeers]

I know there has been other posts on high gravity brewing with the dilution process coming before fermentation but figured I would discuss my particular situation.

I have a somewhat unique local source that focuses on keg equipment but the owner has started to blend his inventory to focus more on home brewing. Likely because he knows I will buy just about anything to fuel my brewing addiction.

I cut a deal with him to brew him a 5 gal batch ($50 off a purchase) but I have absolutely no interest in spending 5+ hours brewing someone beer for less than $500. I told him I would do it if he would be part of my high gravity experiment to brew 10 gallons on a standard grain father. That way I get beer out of this investment as well.

For the recipe I used my Grainfather app and toggled between 10 gallons and 6.5 gallons (final volume into fermenter for both) as I added ingredients to see the ABV, ibu, etc.

I want to be able to perfectly measure out 3.25 gallons after boil and cooling into two corny legs, then top them off with RO or distilled water. I need to buy another spunding valve since I ferment under pressure (RIP…) but I’m not willing to buy a second Tilt.

I plan to put the tilt into both fermenters to compare the OG and temp but then obviously keep the tilt in one vessel, pressure both to 25 psi, stick them side by side in a temp controlled area with my inkbird holding 95f for kveik temps, and let em rip. I’ll assume one is done when the other tilt shows stable gravity.

According to the app I should expect 4.7% alcohol and 27 ibu if the batch is diluted to 10 gallons. I normally want 15 ibu when I’m going for an American “lager “ but worry about losing some flavor during dilution.

What holes do you see in this plan? Any suggestions?

 

[Spundit]

It makes sense to me. A couple things to consider if you haven't already.

1. Diluting with straight ro water will reduce the mineral content of the final beer. If you are expecting any contribution from the minerals make sure you plug that into the calculator as well to ensure your final beer is hitting your targets. It is easy enough to add some minerals to the dilution water if needed.

2. I would have some DME on hand in case you miss your pre-boil gravity.

I am sure you will make drinkable beer and could always tweak it a little next time.

 

[RickyBeers]

All good points. I agree with mineral
Content and def will get some DME just in case.

It makes sense to me. A couple things to consider if you haven't already.

1. Diluting with straight ro water will reduce the mineral content of the final beer. If you are expecting any contribution from the minerals make sure you plug that into the calculator as well to ensure your final beer is hitting your targets. It is easy enough to add some minerals to the dilution water if needed.

2. I would have some DME on hand in case you miss your pre-boil gravity.

I am sure you will make drinkable beer and could always tweak it a little next time.

 

[marc1]

I want to be able to perfectly measure out 3.25 gallons after boil and cooling into two corny legs, then top them off with RO or distilled water. I need to buy another spunding valve since I ferment under pressure (RIP…) but I’m not willing to buy a second Tilt.

What holes do you see in this plan? Any suggestions?

I'd add the water to the kegs first, then top off from the fermenter. In any case, put them on a large scale so you can get accurate fill measurements.

 

[RickyBeers]

I'd add the water to the kegs first, then top off from the fermenter. In any case, put them on a large scale so you can get accurate fill measurements.

Scale idea is AWESOME. I was thinking how annoying it was going to be to try to equally distribute the wort and water using a 1 gallon measuring cup. High IQ idea with the scale, thank you!

 

[RickyBeers]

I just realized I think you can ferment two kegs with 1 Spundit2.0, does anywhere know where directions are for that?

 

[Gusso]

You can but you need that jumper line that fits in the SPUNDit. Trong was nice enough to send one to me.

 

[Spundit]

I just realized I think you can ferment two kegs with 1 Spundit2.0, does anywhere know where directions are for that?

You know... I am only just now realizing I stole a products name as my handle. I thought I made that up on my own. ...and I am using a picture of a competitors product as my avatar. Hmmm.....

 

[RickyBeers]

You know... I am only just now realizing I stole a products name as my handle. I thought I made that up on my own. ...and I am using a picture of a competitors product as my avatar. Hmmm.....

if only I could read between the lines

 

[RickyBeers]

FYI, took a while to final try this.
Ended up with FG of 1.047, a bit low for a Marzen… host of other troubles but just operator error.
either way, I’ll end up with ten gallons from one brew day with a standard grain father. I’ll take it.

 

[RickyBeers]

Another question on this process in terms of PH. I had a second beer come out very astringent. Fairly certain it was due to stuck sparge with too high of temps, and then stuck pump… fun day…
I take my mash ph and it generally hits around 5.2, but I don’t treat my sparge water which is just distilled water. Also, I’m just using distilled water that is untreated for the reduction process at the end. Is my wort hitting the fermenter with high ph, causing astringency? Do I need to treat all my water to ensure proper ph?

 

[marc1]

Another question on this process in terms of PH. I had a second beer come out very astringent. Fairly certain it was due to stuck sparge with too high of temps, and then stuck pump… fun day…
I take my mash ph and it generally hits around 5.2, but I don’t treat my sparge water which is just distilled water. Also, I’m just using distilled water that is untreated for the reduction process at the end. Is my wort hitting the fermenter with high ph, causing astringency? Do I need to treat all my water to ensure proper ph?

Are you using a freshly calibrated meter to check pH?

When and at what temperature are you taking the pH?

 

[RickyBeers]

I use PH strips, so not super accurate I know...

towards the end of the mash I usually take a sample, let it cool a bit, then dip the strip.

I'm not checking/treating sparge water or the water that is being added at the end.

So i'm guessing I'm good on my wort until i sparge, let's say 1.5-2 gallons.

Then I end up, post boil with 6 gallons, adding 4 gallons of water (it depends it could be RO or distilled, but both should be PH of 7).

Basic math tells me that I should end up around 5.8-6 ph going into fermenter. All of this is crude estimates, but let's say it is 6 ph, is my beer trash?

 

[marc1]

I use PH strips, so not super accurate I know...

towards the end of the mash I usually take a sample, let it cool a bit, then dip the strip.

I'm not checking/treating sparge water or the water that is being added at the end.

So i'm guessing I'm good on my wort until i sparge, let's say 1.5-2 gallons.

Then I end up, post boil with 6 gallons, adding 4 gallons of water (it depends it could be RO or distilled, but both should be PH of 7).

Basic math tells me that I should end up around 5.8-6 ph going into fermenter. All of this is crude estimates, but let's say it is 6 ph, is my beer trash?

At this stage I would strongly object to calling the beer trash based on wild guesstimates of the pH.

The pH of the dilution water isn't really relevant because it has basically no buffering capacity, because it's RO/distilled.

I'm not sold on your diluted to-the-fermenter pH being 5.8-6.

I'm also not sold on your mash pH being 5.2.

Is your mash water just RO as well, or are you treating it somehow? Do you run the grist through any water/mash pH calculators? Those generally get you in the ballpark, which for this troubleshooting should be fine.

 

[RickyBeers]

At this stage I would strongly object to calling the beer trash based on wild guesstimates of the pH.

The pH of the dilution water isn't really relevant because it has basically no buffering capacity, because it's RO/distilled.

I'm not sold on your diluted to-the-fermenter pH being 5.8-6.

I'm also not sold on your mash pH being 5.2.

Is your mash water just RO as well, or are you treating it somehow? Do you run the grist through any water/mash pH calculators? Those generally get you in the ballpark, which for this troubleshooting should be fine.

First part, got it good to know.

Next, me same, not sure on 5.8-6, more of a what-if

Mash ph 5.2, agreed, strips aren't perfect

Mash water is RO, treated with 5.2 stabilizer. I haven't used a calculator yet. I did buy some 88% lactic acid but I have been afraid to use it.

 

[marc1]

First part, got it good to know.

Next, me same, not sure on 5.8-6, more of a what-if

Mash ph 5.2, agreed, strips aren't perfect

Mash water is RO, treated with 5.2 stabilizer. I haven't used a calculator yet. I did buy some 88% lactic acid but I have been afraid to use it.

OK, so you're not adding any brewing salts like gypsum or calcium chloride for flavor?

I haven't tested it myself, but all of the info on here points to 5.2 stabilizer being a waste of money that doesn't work. Since you're using blank slate water anyway, you're starting from a great place. Try the simple additions proposed in this thread for your next brew:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

 

[marc1]

And Bru'nWater (@mabrungard) and Mash Made Easy (@Silver_Is_Money) are spreadsheets made by forum members that help with water/mash pH additions/calculations. Read the directions and they are helpful. The creators also routinely help members troubleshoot problems with using the software.

 

[RickyBeers]

OK, so you're not adding any brewing salts like gypsum or calcium chloride for flavor?

I haven't tested it myself, but all of the info on here points to 5.2 stabilizer being a waste of money that doesn't work. Since you're using blank slate water anyway, you're starting from a great place. Try the simple additions proposed in this thread for your next brew:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

Will do, thanks for the guidance!
Water chemistry is sort of my “last stage” of the basics, and I need to do better. I’m not sure why it intimidates me.
But last question, let’s say my made up scenarios are real, and my ph raises before fermenting to 6ph, does that matter during fermentation? Or does ph only matter in mash and sparge?

 

[marc1]

Will do, thanks for the guidance!
Water chemistry is sort of my “last stage” of the basics, and I need to do better. I’m not sure why it intimidates me.
But last question, let’s say my made up scenarios are real, and my ph raises before fermenting to 6ph, does that matter during fermentation? Or does ph only matter in mash and sparge?

There's been discussion here (in brew science I think) about post boil pH adjustments to around 5.1/5.2, but that seems to be more of the very advanced edge of homebrew techniques. 6 seems pretty high, but the yeast will bring it down during fermentation. How much is hard to say. It's certainly worth fermenting out.

I don't think there's a calculator for how much the yeast will drop it from a starting point of 6, there's too many variables.
To determine how it would affect it, you could run the same recipe/fermentation multiple times, adjusting to different post boil pH values, and derive results specific to your process and recipe. You'd want a decent instrument to measure pH for this, though. Inaccurate measurements produce uninterpretable results.

 

[RickyBeers]

There's been discussion here (in brew science I think) about post boil pH adjustments to around 5.1/5.2, but that seems to be more of the very advanced edge of homebrew techniques. 6 seems pretty high, but the yeast will bring it down during fermentation. How much is hard to say. It's certainly worth fermenting out.

I don't think there's a calculator for how much the yeast will drop it from a starting point of 6, there's too many variables.
To determine how it would affect it, you could run the same recipe/fermentation multiple times, adjusting to different post boil pH values, and derive results specific to your process and recipe. You'd want a decent instrument to measure pH for this, though. Inaccurate measurements produce uninterpretable results.

Right on, thank you!