High grav with Honey Malt accent

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skitter

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Hey all,

Tryin to make a high-grav beer for my wife and I's anniversary. Ive made the Deception Cream Stout for her, and I came up with my own recipe that I am looking for help to tweak.

I do 2.5g batches with 3g boils.

7lb 2row
1lb Honey Malt
.5lb Crystal 40 (for color)

I plan on trying Simcoe for this with .25oz at 60 and. 25oz at 10 to keep the IBUs at 20-25. I prefer low IBU beers, malt forward and this seems to maybe be a possiblity. I have not done Simcoe before and wanted to experiment on wether it would balance well with the Honey Malt.

I also plan on using half a packet of Nottingham due to the high attenuation and not having the budget for liquid yeast. My question in this regard is will this require a full packet at this high of a gravity?

As to the Honey Malt, will I need more than just 1lb at this gravity for it to be noticable? I want it noticable but not overpowering.
 
That is already probably going to be too much honey malt. For one thing, when you go high gravity, you really just want to up your base malt and nothing else (specialty malts stay the same quantity as a smaller version, not same percents scaled up). For another thing, honey malt is STRONG. You really only need a few percent for it to come through. I personally find that if I use too much, the flavor is cloying and very unpleasant.

I'd recommend cutting it in half. Don't worry, you'll still definitely taste it.
 
You'll be fine pitching the whole packet of Notty onto that. Your OG looks like it will be in the mid 1.090s. You'd be overpitching, but not by very much at all, and it's certainly not going to hurt anything to have a few extra yeasty beasties around to help out. I'd make sure to rehydrate to be sure all of the yeast are in tip-top shape going into the fermentor.

Out of curiosity, are you going for a particular style with this, or is it one of those "just beer" beers?
 
I havnt tried brewing to style yet, I try what I think will work and go with it
 
Another question for you would be if Simcoe is the right hops to make it balance with bitterness so that its not over poweringley sweet
 
I haven't tried the combination of Simcoe and honey malt before, but I do love Simcoe, so I'd encourage you to try it in this brew and see what you get. I've used honey malt with various combinations of Magnum, Citra, Cascade, and Centennial, and to me it is more important to get the quantity of the malt right rather than try to balance it out with IBUs. You ever sweat really bad at the gym (or wherever) and try to cover it up with fragrant deodorant instead of taking a shower? You still just end up smelling like sweat and...old spices. That's a [graphic] rough parallel to what I find with honey malt. Once it's in there in too much quantity, it's in there no matter what else you add. I'd focus on dialing in the portion of honey malt that suits your tastes rather than worrying about compensating with bitterness. Just my two cents. As for flavor, I can imagine the fruitier side of Simcoe going great with honey malt. The piney/woodsy side may work quite well too, but as I haven't actually tasted the combo, I won't say these statements are true for sure. You can report back and let us know!
 
Just brewed this last night. I made some modifications to balance it out.

Assuming 75% efficiency (still no hydrometer) it should be up there. (2.5g Batch)

I ended up using 8.5lb 2-Row, .5lb Honey Malt, and .5lb Crystal 90. I mashed at 150 which only dropped a degree by the time the 90 minutes was up. I always add my 60 minute hops prior to the boil, in which I used .30 oz of Simcoe, boiled for 60, and 10 prior to the boil finishing I added the last .20 oz of Simcoe.

This will be in the keg for 4 weeks, and then Ill bottle it long term. Well, long term for me anyways :) 3 months in the bottles for you more seasoned brewers is nothing.
 
Awesome! Two quick questions about what you did...

1. When you say that you add the hops before the boil, do you mean you add them to your first runnings right after the mash, before you start heating it up for the boil? If so, this is a technique called "first wort hopping," and it happens to be one of my absolute favorite hop addition methods. It creates a pretty different effect than a regular 60 minute addition.

2. Why are you going to bottle this long term? Just in anticipation of fusel alcohol flavors, so they have time to mellow? You might find, depending on fermentation conditions, that you don't have to age it for a super long time (or maybe you will; again, it depends).
 
I had assumed that higher gravity beers took longer to complete? I made this one specifically for my anniversary on Jul 27th. I bottled the Deception Cream Stout found in the recipes section last week that will also not be opened until then.

This high grav will be in the fermenter for another 3.5 weeks and then bottled till July, with only one being opened to check carb after a month.

I add my hops to the pot after I do my dunk sparge while its heating up.
 
Oh and site note, in my blog below I made a fermentation chamber for my 2 kegs that keeps it at 60 for the whole process
 
Gotcha. I was just wondering about the long term bottle conditioning. It's certainly not a bad thing, but if this beer were just for drinking whenever, then I would be remiss not to mention that a well-brewed high gravity beer with a proper yeast pitch rate can finish nearly as fast as a regular gravity beer (almost all those harsh, unbalanced flavors that need to age out happen because of yeast conditions). However, since this is for your anniversary, obviously it makes sense that you're going to keep it in the bottles til then!

So you mentioned a dunk sparge. I assume that means you do BIAB? You're basically doing a first wort hopping using the method you described. I am totally behind that! I'd suggest adding the hops right into the wort after the mash, then doing your sparge (which I'm assuming you do in a separate pot, although if I'm wrong, adjust this advice to suit your setup), and pouring that in over the hops. The agitation will help get lots of the oils off of the hop and into the liquid before you start heating it up to boil.
 
Ahh I'll have to try that trick next.

I dunk it and then drain the bag as well as put the strainer over the mash pot and pour the dunk water back through the grain again, then press it all out.
 
I planned on a month in the fermenter but your saying I shouldn't have to? I used Nottingham that I rehydrated 20 minutes before use
 
Well, it would normally be dependent on your gravity readings, but since I remember you mentioned that you don't have a hydrometer, I would say that a month wouldn't hurt it. Since pitching rates for yeast are calculated as number of cells per millilitre per degree Plato, a proper yeast population pitched into a high gravity beer theoretically shouldn't put any additional strain on the yeast. The reason for that is simple enough: high OG = lots of sugar; corresponding pitch rate = proportionately large yeast population; thus each individual yeast is still chewing through the same amount of food that he would have been in a smaller beer with a lower pitching rate. Now, this equation doesn't account for other conditions in a high gravity wort, such as greater nutrient deficits (I think zinc is a noteworthy one) and a higher oxygen requirement (in the case of a proper pitching rate, the oxygen is not so much to help the yeast reproduce, but rather to help them create robust and healthy cell walls so that they can cope as the alcohol level rises). But, as you might guess from this info, a well-prepared and well-pitched high gravity wort can finish out just as efficiently as any other.

My guess is that it will be done before a month is up, as long as you aerated/oxygenated well and pitched the whole rehydrated packet of Nottingham. However, I think you said you're fermenting at 60 degrees F, right? That's a lower temp than I am often working at, and so I would expect fermentation to be a bit slower.

I'd say, if you can spare the fermentor space, go ahead and leave it for a month, since you can't take gravity readings (just to be safe).

What I meant to say in my other comment was that if you get your mash and yeast conditions right on a high gravity beer, there shouldn't be much need to age the beer for a long time in order to mellow out harsh flavors that sometimes accompany a big beer (which are almost exclusively a result of yeast conditions). But this is more in reference to either batch aging in secondary or cellaring/bottle aging. You still want to give it enough time in the fermentor to finish out.

Okay, sorry for the freaking novel there! Did that clarify anything?
 
Yes it did thank you! Ill be bottling in 3 weeks, and opening 1 to check carb after a month in the botttles to make sure our anniversary isn't a flat experience. If it is still flat ill have to put a couple grains per bottle and re-cap
 
So my Low Grav version of this exploded out the top of the LBK within the first 2 days, I am hoping that this one is just had a more even temperature experience, as the krausen has already died down at day 6 and did not overflow. The lid was slightly stuck but nothing had come out of the notches (an I'm anal about not opening the keg during fermentation).

The Low Grav version (5lb 2-row, 4oz Honey Malt + Simcoe) tasted like a beer at bottling today, nothing popping out yet, hopefully conditioning will make the flavors shine.
 
Hmmm...I'm surprised that you aren't noticing anything. I suppose 4 oz isn't very much, but I typically find that honey malt creates a very noticeable flavor in my beers. It might be different after it carbs up (and I think the high grav one will definitely be noticeable).

If you want an idea of what the flavor is, so you can look for it specifically in your brew, it's honey-like (duh) with a kind of funky musty edge to it, and the sweetness reminds me of very sweet white wine.

As for the krausen falling, 6 days isn't too bad. For one, you used Nottingham, which is a beast. For another, the yeast keeps working even after the krausen falls, so just let it sit and do its thing.
 
Oh I will be, I was just surprised that the low grav blew over and the high grav hasn't.
 
I may end up bottling this at 3 weeks. My fermentation chamber holds 2 kegs. I brew a new 2.5g batch every weekend. This last weekend was nada, and next weekend ill be brewing a batch, which takes up the empty slot.

Weekend after that I can brew another batch or wait a week but since I get my grain pre-milled I don't like waiting mote than a week. That would leave this batch at 3 weeks in fermenter
 
If you where local I'd give ya a bottle to try lol, I do appreciate the assistance... I'm still learning and have limited local help
 
Dang! Where are you located? If we're ever in each other's neck of the woods, we could always arrange a swap. (Though I bet this particular brew will be long gone before that happens!)
 
North Houston, and I always share my brews with co-workers, I transplanted from NW United States to TX and havn't had time to make very many friends down here yet
 
So, this weekend marks the 2 week fermentation period. What about racking to a secondary and adding Amalyse Enzyme? Would that help this at all? I have it on hand and it was a curious query.
 
You'll be fine to rack to secondary this weekend (you'll run into the debate about whether secondary is actually necessary or helpful at all, but if you want to rack it, your timing should be fine). Whatever you do, I'd just give it another week or two to be sure fermentation is fully complete, and for the beer to clear a little, then bottle.

As for the amylase enzyme, my understanding is that it is meant to be used in the mash. Beta- and Alpha-amylase are the enzymes responsible for the conversion of glucose to maltose, and they are naturally present in the grain. Adding extra in a different form is presumably meant to boost efficiency, although I have no personal experience with it. Beta- and Alpha-amylase enzymes become active when temperatures are between the low 140s to upper 150s (Fahrenheit), which is why we do the saccharification rest of our mash in that temperature range. So, adding to secondary wouldn't really make sense, since presumably all of the starches were converted to simple sugars on brew day during your mash by the naturally occurring amylase enzymes, and because the enzymes wouldn't really do anything at the ambient temperature of your secondary anyway. It's possible that I'm missing/unaware of something, but I can't see a reason to use it here.
 
When I did the Miller Lite clone from the recipes section it had me at families in the secondary and so I didn't know if it was worth it to do it to this batch as well
 
Well, like I said, there might just be something that I'm not aware of that the enzyme can do in secondary. I won't tell you absolutely not to add it, but I'd make sure to do some research and have a good reason before you do.

Lots of folks love to parrot Charlie Papazian with the RDWHAHB motto (which is great), but I honestly think a motto we could do with more often is K.I.S.S. -- Keep it simple, skitter! There's probably not going to be much difference between adding an enzyme to secondary or not, but what I can say for sure is that your beer will turn out fine without it. So I think there's no need to add it just for the sake of adding it. On the other hand, you're probably not going to hurt anything by throwing it in. So, it's kind of up to you.
 
Another thought: you used this before in a Miller Lite clone. Perhaps there's something useful about using the enzyme in lagers specifically? I don't know...again, this could just be a point of ignorance on my part.
 
It was an Ale clone of a Lager recipe, not a lager recipe. The purpose of the Amalyse was to dry it out more like Miller Light is.
 

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