HERMS Build - vessels size and what about two elements in the HLT?

[adromo]

I am in the process of finalizing an electric brewery build. I'm going with a HERMS system, essentially a Kal clone. I have a couple of things I'm still hung up on.

First, I'm debating my kettle size. I've been brewing for over 15 years and have always done 5 gallon batches. If possible, when my system is complete, I would like the option to do 5 or 10 gallon batches. My question: is there a vessel size that is most conducive to this across all style and subsequent original gravities? For example, would 15 gallon kettles allow me to make a 10 gallons of a 1.120 barlywine while still being able to boil (submerge the heating element) a 5 gallon batch? If I jump to 20 gallon vessel size will I have problems with the 5 gallon brews like not submerging the element in the kettle or mash problems due to the depth of the grain bed?

Second, I love to step mash (for certain styles) so, needless to say, one of my hesitations with a HERMS system is the potential for slower temperature changes of the mash. However, I love the simplicity and safety of the HERMS process. Has anybody experimented with TWO heating elements in the HLT? My thought process is by using two heating elements I can double the rate at which I add heat to the HTL and therefore increase the rate at which the mash temperature increases. Specifically, I'm thinking about using something like the electric Brewing Supply 4 element system (See here). This would give me the ability to select two active elements in the HLT when attempting to perform a step mash. What are peoples thoughts on this? Would it significantly increase the rate of temperature increase? I'm operating under the assumption that it would since it would double my heating wattage. Does anybody have any experience with this?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and thoughts. They are much appreciated.

 

[Bobby_M]

I am in the process of finalizing an electric brewery build. I'm going with a HERMS system, essentially a Kal clone. I have a couple of things I'm still hung up on.

First, I'm debating my kettle size. I've been brewing for over 15 years and have always done 5 gallon batches. If possible, when my system is complete, I would like the option to do 5 or 10 gallon batches. My question: is there a vessel size that is most conducive to this across all style and subsequent original gravities? For example, would 15 gallon kettles allow me to make a 10 gallons of a 1.120 barlywine while still being able to boil (submerge the heating element) a 5 gallon batch? If I jump to 20 gallon vessel size will I have problems with the 5 gallon brews like not submerging the element in the kettle or mash problems due to the depth of the grain bed?

Second, I love to step mash (for certain styles) so, needless to say, one of my hesitations with a HERMS system is the potential for slower temperature changes of the mash. However, I love the simplicity and safety of the HERMS process. Has anybody experimented with TWO heating elements in the HLT? My thought process is by using two heating elements I can double the rate at which I add heat to the HTL and therefore increase the rate at which the mash temperature increases. Specifically, I'm thinking about using something like the electric Brewing Supply 4 element system (See here). This would give me the ability to select two active elements in the HLT when attempting to perform a step mash. What are peoples thoughts on this? Would it significantly increase the rate of temperature increase? I'm operating under the assumption that it would since it would double my heating wattage. Does anybody have any experience with this?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and thoughts. They are much appreciated.

Sounds like a job for a 20 gallon eBIAB rig to me.

 

[adromo]

Sounds like a job for a 20 gallon eBIAB rig to me.

Appreciate the reply.

Could you enlighten me a little bit more as to why you are recommending an eBIAB rig? I recognize that it would essentially be an in-vessel RIMS during the mash. I am really hoping to avoid the need to lift a bag full of grain out of the pot in order to boil. I also like the ability the three vessel system gives to easily do a sparge to increase efficiency. I have been doing 3 vessel brewing for years and like the way my brew day flows and it is what I am familiar with.

Another reason I decided on a 50 amp HERMS is I would like the ability to do back-to-back batches. Similarly, since I'm planning to do a 50amp system, I would be able to hold the boil kettle at a temperature with one element for hop stands (as an example) while continuing my sparge.

I guess what I am saying is I have considered an eBIAB system and had decided a 3 vessel HERMS meets my needs and wants better. Am I missing something with regard to the eBIAB system? Is there something about my originally proposed HERMS system that just would not work?

I guess if I put this a different way perhaps it will make more sense. While I'm open to persuasion, I am 95% sold on a 50 amp HERMS system so that I can do back-to-back batches (amongst other things). My thought process was simply this:

1. I'm going to have a system that can run two elements at once for back-to-back batches;
2. They make systems that will let me select two of four elements to run at a time (the ebrewing supply system I mention in my earlier post). (This is actually a simply modification as a DIY controller as well. Essentially, just use a three way switch to selectively connect an element/SSR combination to a PID or not);
3. Why not throw a second element in the HTL that can be selectively activated to hedge my bets on the rate I can increase my mash temp when attempting a step mash?

Again, thank you for the reply and I would appreciate any further thoughts you or anyone else have on the topic.

It is perhaps fortuitous that your replied Bobby_M. I am seriously considering your 3 Vessel eHERMS kit to get me up and running fast!​

 

[adromo]

Sounds like a job for a 20 gallon eBIAB rig to me.

Apologize for the back-to-back post. Going back to my Kettle/Vessel size question.

Is it safe to assume, since you recommended a 20G eBIAB that I will have no problem boiling a 5G batch in a 20 gallon electric kettle?

Additionally, is the same true for a 20G mash tun? Would I encounter any problems with attempting to mash for a 5G batch in a 20G tun?

Would 20G be a more versatile system than a 15G for making both 5G and 10G batches?

Regards,

Adromo

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess reasons to seriously consider my suggestion to go eBIAB are:

1. I've been brewing for 14 years and have brewed on 2 vessel and 3 vessel systems, RIMS, HERMS and otherwise and yet I'm still eBIAB now.
2. I have access to any equipment I could dream of at cost and I'm still eBIAB.
3. I have much more (profit) to gain by talking you into buying a 3 vessel HERMS from me but I still recommend eBIAB.

The only reason I could see going 3 vessel HERMS is if you actually like the longer process and don't mind the extra hour of cleaning. Efficiency is only slightly lower on BIAB than fly sparged HERMS. BIAB (full mash) has less issues with pH drift since you don't sparge. Batch cost is only about 5% higher on BIAB.

Back to back batches? Build two identical eBIAB rigs right next to each other and brew double batches at the same time. Same 50amps. Same 4 hour brew day.

If you're still reluctant, just do yourself a favor and find someone that does brew eBIAB and sit in on a brew day with them. I've converted half my brew club and countless strangers that very way.


To answer your actual questions, double elements will shorten heating times to half. Whether the added cost is worth the extra money up front is really down to how much time you have on brew days. Then again, if time is a factor, eBIAB since you heat less water and clean fewer vessels.

For BIAB, a 20 gallon is necessary for 10 gallon batches and it will also work for 5 gallon (end the boil with 6 gallons). For a 3 vessel HERMS, you can get away with triple 15g with a 8.5% abv max if you make it a 12 gallon finished boil (32lbs of grain). If you want to go bigger, upsize the mash tun to a 20/22g. Kettles like the BrewBuilt and Spike have a very low false bottom so 5 gallon batches are no problem.