Help with a Vienna Lager (how much roast malt)

[Queequeg]

I am due to brew this weekend. I am keeping the grain bill simple

11Lb weyerman vienna (~93%)
6.5oz weyerman melanoidin malt (~3.5%)
5.5 oz acid malt (~3%)
A roast malt 2-3 oz

I will use a trifecta of hops, hallertauer mittelfrueh, tettnang and saaz at about 25 ibu's
Ferment with WLP830

The idea is vienna will be center stage, and the melanoidin will provide a bit more complexity and malty kick.

The roast malt is primarily for color adjustment and mash pH. Normally I would use midnight wheat and even cold steep.

However I have read in a few places that a slight flavor contribution from roast malt is desirable and adding a slight drying effect and the most subtle of flavors from the raost malt would be good given the simplicity of the grain bill otherwise.

I'm not however sure what roast grain to use and how much, obviously i can do color adjustments in beersmith, but i'm more concerned about over doing the flavor, as noticeable roast character is out of style, I want a hint, a tannin quality if you will.

I have the following on hand
Midnight wheat
Crisp black malt
UK pale chocolate
Roast Barley

My current thoughts are 2 oz of crisp black, as this has the dry astringency I want. many people suggest chocolate but to me chocolate malt has such a distinctive quality I scared of people being able to pick it out.

If anyone has have experience doing this before their feed back would be welcome. I did some searching but all I get is don't use too much.

 

[BigEd]

How much dark roast malt? IMO, none. A Vienna really doesn't need to be dark unless you're trying for a Negra Modelo clone. Negra Modelo and Dos Equis Amber were/are relics of Old World Vienna but because they were about the only commercial varieties left until some recent craft brewery interpretations their color pretty much sticks in the mind of most people. Think of a Vienna as a lower gravity Festbier, lots of Vienna malt with maybe a little bit of specialty caramel malt. If you are in the Northeast US look for Von Trapp Vienna from Vermont and give it a try.

 

[Upthewazzu]

For a 5 gallon batch I'd say 1oz at the most, if you bother using any roast at all. Also, I've relegated Melanoidin malt to the garbage bin. I'm not a fan no matter what anyone says about "replicating a traditional step mash". In its place, I'd use carared or something along those lines. It's a caramel-ish malt with a pretty decent red hue.

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't put any dark or roasted malt in a Vienna lager. It's not a dark beer.

You don't need it for pH adjustment, as you've got acid malt in there already. If you need to adjust the pH, you could use some phosphoric acid or allow the acid malt to go up to 3% if you need it that high.

 

[jtp137]

2 oz in 5 gallon batch at most use a de husked roast malt

 

[Queequeg]

Thanks for the feedback folks.

I can't seem to hit the colour range without a roast malt addition.

Vienna according to BJCP should be in the 10-16SRM range and you can't hit that with just Vienna malt, at least not with weyermann.

I don't want to use Munich malt because well that is for Munich styles. And I don't want to use any crystal because that has no place in a lager.

Yooper, I am using boiled Vienna water profile. I did originally have 7.5 oz of acid malt but was concerned it would leave too much lactic acid flavor. (Though I appreciate some is desirable). So I moved the roast malt to the mash. I then read in fixes book that roast malt was used for some German Vienna's which not only colored the beer but lowered the pH/dried the finish.

 

[thehaze]

I would also vore for no dark/roasted malt in a Vienna Lager. I also agree with Upthewazzu regarding the CaraRed from Wyermann. It's good stuff and it's not as caramelly/sweet as other crystal malts, but it does lend some subtle toffee, malty, pleasent notes at around 5-10%, although 10% is really too much for a Vienna Lager.

I haven't tried many American beers, but I do like what Brooklyn Lager offers in terms of Amber lager/Vienna lager...

 

[Queequeg]

After a bit of research it would appear that the BJCP guidelines are out.

I found is article

http://dafteejit.com/2015/03/tracing-the-origins-of-vienna-lager/

Which indicates a original Vienna is much paler than the BJCP guidelines.

 

[Yooper]

I've done Vienna lagers with 100% Vienna malt and a decoction- it was a great color. I used Briess' Vienna malt, at 3.5L.

Briess has a new carapils type malt out that I saw. I haven't used it, but here is the description:

Carapils® Copper Malt
Lovibond Flavor Unique Characteristics/Applications
30
Malty,
graham cracker,
toasty

Unique dextrine-style malt that not only adds body, foam retention, and beer stability but also color and flavor.

Something like that might get you the color you want, without adding roast malt.

 

[Queequeg]

Sounds good, I will see if I can pick some up. Doubt I will have it by this weekend though, so will need to go in the second iteration.

 

[Upthewazzu]

you could also use a touch of aromatic or biscuit malt. both are roughly 22 srm and won't give you a caramel flavor.

 

[jtp137]

This is from Devils Backbone Vienna Lager its pretty damn good

 

[SpeedYellow]

I tried a touch of roasted malt in a similar Vienna lager once, and it was disgusting. A truly awful idea, and I dumped the batch. Don't do it!

My advice is don't worry about color-- who cares what the bjcp says?! It'll be plenty dark.

 

[V-Fib]

If you want to darken it you can use carafa I

 

[Queequeg]

Well brewed this today. Everything went well, hit temps, pH and gravity. In the fermenter free rising from 44°F to 50°F.

I did not use any roast malt. I will report back with finish product when it's ready.