Help me get Funky!!

[whitehause]

Hey Guys(and Gals),
I am looking to break into some sour or funk brewing.
I'm trying to find a solid recipe to start out with. I'm not looking for the easiest, but one with a likely hood of turning out good. I've done some research and reading on wild brews and I have all the equip to do it. I've been doing AG for years, bottle harvesting yeast, freezing yeast, grinding my own grain, temp control, kegging, building keggels, ect ect, so I'm not a brewing noob, but I am a funk noob.
I would really appreciate any tips, tricks, or recipes that you guys have done or come across. Reading about it only gets you so far, hearing about real world experience would help a lot.
Thanks and Funk on :fro:

 

[TNGabe]

That's kind of like saying 'I want to brew a beer, what should I make?' If you narrow it down a bit with something about what you're looking for in the finished beer, some commercial examples you enjoy, and what sort of time frame you're hoping to make the beer in, it will be easier to try and point you in the right direction.

 

[blizzard]

It really isn't too much harder than brewing a good beer and tossing in some bugs. As Gabe said, what kind of funky/sour beers have you tried and liked?

 

[aspiffymofo]

You could do a sour mash Berliner Weisse.
The benefit is that it will be ready to drink a lot faster than souring during the ferment.

I based my first sour on this recipe/method to get my feet wet:
http://www.allgrains.net/2013/06/berliner-weisse-full-sour-mash.html

My recipe:
Mash: 148F for 70 min
2lb white wheat
3lb 2 row
0.5lb acidulated malt
1lb honey malt

collect wort and add 0.5lb of un-milled 2 row when temp drops to 125F
Hold it at 125F until it tastes sour enough (3-5 days)
( I used an old fermenting bucket with a ferm-wrap and wrapped it in a blanket. The whole thing was controlled with an STC-1000)

Boil as normal using enough hops to get 3-8 IBU's (I boiled for the full hour to kill any bacteria)
Chill and pitch yeast as usual (I used S-04)

 

[whitehause]

What I'm thinking ( and I may be waaay off with this thought) is to brew a wit, ferment on the must from a blackberry wine that I have fermenting now, then add some red raspberrys that grow on my property(or buy some if mine aren't ready). I'm looking for a nice tart finish. I'm not on a schedule so time isn't a factor.

 

[TNGabe]

What I'm thinking ( and I may be waaay off with this thought) is to brew a wit, ferment on the must from a blackberry wine that I have fermenting now, then add some red raspberrys that grow on my property(or buy some if mine aren't ready). I'm looking for a nice tart finish. I'm not on a schedule so time isn't a factor.

What are you planning on picking up from the blackberry must? I don't know anything about winemaking. Is the blackberry wine a wild ferment or did you use something to kill the wild yeast and then pitch a cultured wine strain?

I've been kicking around ideas for some soured wit beer myself.

 

[whitehause]

Not looking to pick up any "bugs" from the must. It was made with a wine yeast. I'm thinking it will be available to use in a couple weeks, and I'm looking at doing something with fruit, so I'd use the must to start the ferment rather than a standard ale yeast. There is always a little wine left after racking, so I thought it might pick up a hint of Blackberry. kind of a half azzed simulation of using a wine barrel. Just thought it would be a little different.
Then I would want to add some bugs to that and age on some whole raspberrys, blackberrys, ect. I'm looking to get a tart brew with a berry tone, but I'm not sure what bugs and when to add to get that effect.

 

[TNGabe]

Again, I have no experience with wine, but I've made the terrible mistake of tasting fruit that was used in a beer and I sure wouldn't want to reuse it for anything. If you want to make a wit, you have to use wit yeast. There are several thread on here about using wine yeast in a beer, short version is that you won't get very good attenuation. Lactobacillus is the easiest thing to sour a beer with and if added with or after the sacchromyces, more likely to result in a beer that is tart rather than sour.

 

[blizzard]

+1 to Gabe. If you are using unfermented must or adding finished wine that should be fine. If you are adding the spent pomace, don't do it. I tried that and all it added was astringency. The yeast is a big flavor component in a witbier, so go with wit yeast.

Based on what you want I would brew a witbier then ferment a portion of it with belgian yeast and a portion of it with lacto, then combine and rack over fruit. Or, you could ferment all of the wort for a couple of days with lacto until you get the level of sour you are looking for, then pitch a healthy starter of a belgian yeast strain suitable for a wit. Then rack on fruit after primary.

 

[whitehause]

Nevermind, I'm an idiot....meant wine lees, not must. Don't know why I had must stuck in my head the whole time.

Anyway, maybe some WPL400 and Lacto. Do you find it best to add lacto before or with the wit yeast? I assume before gives you a little more control over the sourness, and I'm also assuming that adding to the fruit will kick in a small second fermentation of the sugars in the fruit.

 

[blizzard]

Yeah, don't use the lees. I know from experience.

Adding the lacto first allows them to get a jump start before they beer yeast out-competes them. Definitely plan on having a second fermentation with the fruit.

 

[Calder]

For a sour, lambic, gueuze, flanders, you need multiple yeasts and bugs. Buy a ready made mix and pitch that for your first one.

A simple recipe is 30% wheat, 70 pilsner to about 1.055. Hops to no more than 10 IBUs. Mash high 150s. Pitch bug mix, and leave for a year under an airlock. Then think about adding fruit.

That is about as simple as it gets. It will be amazing.

Now, you want to get complex ...... how many years do you have to learn.

A Berliner can be done in a few weeks, if you sour it with lacto before adding the yeast. If you add the yeast before it sours it can take a year. A Berliner is a refreshing low alcohol sour beer. Not as complex as a traditional sour, but good none the less.

Do not use the lees. Many wine yeasts will kill ale yeasts. The brett seems to work on the esters produced by the ale yeast, so you really want to use an ale yeast. Belgian yeasts seem to be traditional, maybe because they produce a lot of esters.

 

[whitehause]

Thanks Calder

 

[fivepoundpossum]

yeah, if you use the wine yeast, you'll need to add the convertase ag 300 enzyme to convert the maltose and maltotriose to glucose. and, as someone said, most wine yeast will kill saccharomyces strains, which are important for those brett-precursors you need for the funk.

i would say, think about the types of funky beers you like and go from there. berliners are simple and fast without a lot of funk or complexity. a brett-finished saison (brett added after the saison yeast does its thing) is nice and can be nicely funky in 3-4 months. a sour saison (a healthy pitch of saison yeast plus a mixed culture of brett and bacteria) can be good and mildly tart with substantial funkiness in 5-6 months, aging well for years. full-on sours are excellent, but as many have noted take a year or so before you decide if you want to add fruit, etc.

the possibilities are endless. that's why i pretty much only brew funky stuff these days. welcome to the dark side!

 

[whitehause]

Thanks Fivepound

I'm not saying I know everything about standard brewing, but I am getting a little board. I'll never stop brewing my favorites, but I'm looking for a new challenge and sours seem to be a logical step. Plus I love the whole mad scientist aspect of mixing bugs, blending, barrel aging(already have a couple waiting) and tasting the changes that occur through the aging.

 

[metic]

One of the first sour beers I brewed was a clone of Jolly Pumpkin's Bam Biere. You can find the recipe on this site, and lots of useful infomation in the Can You Brew It episode. Plus, if you can get some JP dregs, the beer can be ready after 2-3 months.

Sent from my VM670 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[J343MY]

One of the first sour beers I brewed was a clone of Jolly Pumpkin's Bam Biere. You can find the recipe on this site, and lots of useful infomation in the Can You Brew It episode. Plus, if you can get some JP dregs, the beer can be ready after 2-3 months.

Sent from my VM670 using Home Brew mobile app

I was just going to suggest something similar.

I recently made a simple Saison, Basically 2-row and wheat, 1.050 OG. Lightly hopped with Amarillo. Half a pack of T-58 and a one litre starter built up from Bam Biere dregs.

How about something like that? Doesn't get much easier.