Help! I'm Dumb!

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

So I'm trying to wire a very basic PID controller. this one: http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/pid/diagram.jpg

I've made things difficult by acquiring an Automations Direct 4848 RR ( http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/What-s-s_New/Process_Controls/SL4848-RR-D )

I also ordered a Auber 40A SSR. The problem with this is my SSR looks nothing like the one on the auber site. I ended up with this one
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/488355006/original_mager_brand_40A_SSR.html

Thus far in my wiring attempts I have managed to get both the PID and SSR to power on but haven't been able to get them to switch the element on (yes the pid is programmed) I've tried wiring like the diagram shows but I think inbetween the different SSR and the different PID I have some serious problems. If someone could help me out by:
1. Where does the female power cords hot line go into the SSR?(1,2,3, or 4)
2. Where does the male power cords hot line go into the SSR?(1,2,3, or 4)
3. Where does the line opposite the female power cord go into the PID at? (1-12)
4. Where does the line opposite the male power cord go into the PID at? (1-12)
5. Where do the other 2 PID wires go in at? (the two lines connected to the terminal strip at the hot(black?) line and neutral(white?) line go into the PID at? (would this be the input or output even?) (1-12)
6. My male powercord has green(ground?) Brown(hot?) and blue(neutral?) lines inside of it rather than black, white and green. Have I assigned the colors correctly?

 

[P-J]

Your first issue: The PID you secured ($99.00 - wow!) has relay outputs and is not designed to control SSRs. Now you have to decide what you want to do.

 

[dezman]

Mabe im missing something but I think your PID is not compatable with a SSR, only a regular relay. This could be your problem. I would return this if you can and just get the auber 2352: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3 , much cheaper and its what most people use here so it'll be easier to help.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Well I got the PID in a prebuilt controller so I didnt pay that crazy amount. What kind of relay do I need?(or is it built in?)

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

I think I'm gonna try to get rid of the Automations direct PID and get an Auber one. Will my automations RTD work in my auber PID?

 

[P-J]

Which RTD probe did you get?

For the PID I'd suggest that you get the Auber Instruments PID SYL-2352 << link
It is the one most commonly used on this forum for brewing.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

uh, I THINK its this one with a thermowell but I'm not sure: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Spring-loaded_with_Hex_Nipple)/RTD1-H04L01-02




I'd love to have the auber one, when I bought the prebuilt rims panel I expected it to have it in it. It had an SSR in it(which I melted during the first boil) which led me to believe I would need one for my application.

 

[P-J]

That one should work just fine.

Plan out your setup and wiring and post the info in this thread. We can help you.

Wishing you the best.

P-J

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Excellent. I'll be getting the auber PID within the next few days. Will the diagram I posted in the original thread work without a hiccup with the Auber PID and the SSR listed in the original post(got it from auber but it doesn't look like the picture)

Edit: I'd still really like to have a switch that shuts off the element but leaves the PID on. Could I put one inbetween F and L1? If so would this switch work? http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=223

(sorry I have two of these threads going)

 

[P-J]

Do you have a heat sink for the SSR? If not - get one.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Yea I got an exernal heat sink from auber. Is the Auber PID about the same size as the automations direct one?

 

[P-J]

Excellent. I'll be getting the auber PID within the next few days. Will the diagram I posted in the original thread work without a hiccup with the Auber PID and the SSR listed in the original post(got it from auber but it doesn't look like the picture)

Edit: I'd still really like to have a switch that shuts off the element but leaves the PID on. Could I put one inbetween F and L1? If so would this switch work? http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=223

(sorry I have two of these threads going)

The Auber PID SYL-2352 will work very well with the Auber SSRs.

Regarding the switch: This depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the circuit. The switch is rated for 10A @ 240V or 120V. If the load is greater than that, there is a strong possibility that it could fail. If you place the switch in the SSR control circuit, it is possible for you to control a large load with that switch. Another possibility for controlling a large load is to use a contactor to control the load and then the switch to control the contactor.

You still have not stated what you are trying to accomplish and it is rather difficult to help you when you leave most of your mission out there as a mystery in a cloud of smoke.

Yea I got an exernal heat sink from auber. Is the Auber PID about the same size as the automations direct one?

Your original PID uses a cutout that is 45 x 45 mm. The Auber PID SYL-2352 uses a cutout that is also 45 x 45 mm. Both are 1/16 DIN.

If you looked at the specs for each one (As I just did) you could have determined that as well.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Sorry. This will be used to simply control mash temps and assist with boils using a 1650w element.

 

[passedpawn]

Your first issue: The PID you secured ($99.00 - wow!) has relay outputs and is not designed to control SSRs. Now you have to decide what you want to do.

Out of curiosity, why wouldn't this work? I understand relays and SSRs, and it seems to me that this would work fine. I haven't looks at the specs of anything here, though.

 

[P-J]

Sorry. This will be used to simply control mash temps and assist with boils using a 1650w element.

Ok. A 1650W element on 120V will draw 13.75A. This means it would be in your best interest to set it up using the switch to control a contactor instead of the SSR's output.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Ok. A 1650W element on 120V will draw 13.75A. This means it would be in your best interest to set it up using the switch to control a contactor instead of the SSR's output.

Ermmm........huh? So the SSR thing is out again? so the Pid would be wired to a contactor? Like this one? http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=129

If so how would I wire it? Will I still need the heat sink?

Is the SSR unusable in my scenario? (I just bought the thing )
Keep in mind I was planning on replacing my automations direct PID with the auber one P-J recommended.

 

[P-J]

Ermmm........huh? So the SSR thing is out again? so the Pid would be wired to a contactor? Like this one? http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_31&products_id=129

If so how would I wire it? Will I still need the heat sink?

Is the SSR unusable in my scenario? (I just bought the thing )
Keep in mind I was planning on replacing my automations direct PID with the auber one P-J recommended.

The PID, SSR and heat sink are just fine and A-ok.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Whew, sorry to throw a wench into your "what is technically better" gears

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

So I wired my controller today with the SYL-2352. I can't get the element to come on but both the PID and SSR LED's are on. I'm not sure whats wrong/how to program the PID beyond setting the SV or PV
How do I program my PID?
Here's a pic of the wiring and a description


Female power cord green to terminal strip 1
Female power cord white to terminal strip 2
Male power cord black to terminal strip 3
Male power cord green to terminal strip 1
Male power cord white to terminal strip 2
Female power cord black to SSR output (2) Its the side with the black triangle
Wire going from terminal strip 3 to SSR output (1) Its the side with the obtuse angle looking side of the switch
SSR input + (3) to PID #7
SSR input - (4) to PID #8
PID 9 to terminal strip 3
PID 10 to terminal strip 2

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Well after much battle I still haven't got the element to power on through the PID. I think its auto tuning right now, through my googling I read this can take a while. its blinking 158(SV) and AT soo idk
The output light has been on while I've been tinkering with it, but the element has yet to come on. All of this makes me feel like something is wired wrong but I'm not sure what. Help meeee!

 

[stlbeer]

First - before you proceed - review the first posting in this link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/

you are trying to do the same thing as in post 1.

Now - if the SSR's LED is lighting up, then the SSR should be working.

Keep in mind that the SSR is like a light switch. It switches the power line on and off.

I can't tell what you mean by male and female in your description above. But the black line is the one you want to switch. The SSR would be in the middle between the power source and the heater element.

Therefore, the black line coming from the wall or the terminal strip to one side of the switched SSR, then another black line from the other switched side of the SSR to the thing to be powered (the load) - a heater element.

The white line (neutral) goes from the wall or a different terminal strip directly to the element then

the green line (ground) goes from the wall or a different terminal strip to the element ground.

The instruction manual - http://auberins.com/images/Manual/Manual version 3.4.pdf -

Read page 6 - section 5.3

On the SSR pins 7 & 8 send the control signal to the SSR - looks like you got that right.
Pins 9 & 10 are your power which sounds like it's coming from the terminal strips. Ok too.
So how is the switched side of the SSR wired? That's probably why it's not heating.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Ive got the power from the wall coming into a terminal strip. The power is going into the PID on 9 and into the SSR on 1 (the side of the switch with the obtuse angle on it rather than the black triangle) then out of 2 (the side with the black triangle) and into the heater.
I'm pretty sure I followed this diagram exactly http://www.susanminor.org/Rayeimages/pid/diagram.jpg

My kettle element is working fine so thats out I also tried plugging in a lamp and that doesn't turn it on.
Does the positioning of my wires on the terminal strip make a difference?(as in all the wires are on the correct terminal but are on the opposing side)
Does the fact I'm using a 40A SSR matter?
also in my tinkering I managed to change to Celsius and cant figure out how to change back >_< any idea?
Oh, and female power cord=output power, where the element will be plugged into
Male power cord=line coming from the wall into the control panel

 

[stlbeer]

Ok, after looking at the picture again I see where you get the male/female thing from.

I have a 25Amp SSR from the same company in my RIMS controller. After looking at your picture and description, it seems to me you have it wired correctly with the hot side going into terminal 1 and the load on terminal 2.

Double check your ground and neutral connections. If you have a circuit checker you can check for continuity on your connections to ensure good contact.

Regarding the SSR, has the light always been on? Is it new or used?

If you lower the SV on the PID, does the SSR LED stop glowing?

 

[stlbeer]

Could you get a better picture of the way the box is wired? It's hard to trace all of the wires through the picture. Which set of wires is the male and which is the female?

Something isn't wired right.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Both the PID and the SSR are new.
How do I check continuity?
Do I need a different terminal strip for neutral, hot, and ground? Or can I keep using 1 like I am?
That was a good test turning down the SV. neither the output or SSR light turned off even when the SV was lower than the PV. But both only turn on after the PID goes through its start up stuff, so the light isnt on when I first plug the controller in,they only come on after a few seconds
I don't have a camera thats any good so I'll try to label stuff.


White arrow-to PID 7
Red Arrow- to PID 8
Yellow arrow- Black power output cord
Pink arrow- Power input from terminal strip
Brownish arrow- Power In from wall. Second wire off to PID 9
Black arrow- Power out of terminal strip and into SSR at the pink arrow
Puke green arrow- Ground in to terminal strip
Gray arrow- Ground out of terminal strip and into heater
Blue arrow - White cord in from wall to terminal strip
Green arrow-White cord out of terminal strip and into heater. Second wire running off from terminal strip into PID 10

The left power cord is input and the right one is output

 

[stlbeer]

I still don't see the problem. So let's deconstruct this. There's no problem running the PID all by itself.

Unplug the power from the wall.

Remove the PID, RTD connection, and power input cord from the box.

Connect the power and RTD to the proper terminals on the PID.

Plug in the power.

The PID should power up.

Set the SV to 90*F or 33*C. Watch the output light on the PID. Then hold the temp probe in your closed hand. The output light should come on until the PV passes the SV. When the PV exceeds the SV, the output light should go off. Quite likely it will start pulsing before the PV passes the SV.

If you pass this test then the PID is good.

Next connect the SSR to the control terminals of the PID.

Perform the same test as you did above. Did you get the same results? The LED on the SSR should light at the same time and interval as on the PID.

Then connect a lamp to the load side of the SSR. It's a pain to do, but it could be that the SSR failed in the open state. Most people have reported the SSR's have failed closed, but the LED light still works.

Report back how it goes and we'll go from there.

Paul

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Well the first test seemed like a pass. I just plugged up the probe and power. it was 2C over then the output light shut off.
When I plugged in the SSR the LED came on and shut off with the PID output. But the lamp does not power on.
I suppose this means there is something wrong with the SSR. But I'll wait for suggestions before contacting Auber

 

[stlbeer]

Well the first test seemed like a pass. I just plugged up the probe and power. it was 2C over then the output light shut off.
When I plugged in the SSR the LED came on and shut off with the PID output. But the lamp does not power on.
I suppose this means there is something wrong with the SSR. But I'll wait for suggestions before contacting Auber

Hmmm. Good to hear the PID is working correctly. Seems like the SSR might be the issue then. Just to confirm, the black or hot wire is what's being switched - not hot and neutral. I've seen folks do that and it won't work. Neutral goes straight to the element from the source and only black or hot is switched. From the source to the 1 and from 2 to the load (element).

Keep probing. Do you have an extra SSR?

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Hrmm. So I have this lamp I pulled the plug off of and have been using to test. It only has 2 wires. Don't I plug both into each end of the SSR output?

(after some thought)

I just tried it with the terminal strip (plugging one lamp wire to the terminal with the white wire and the second wire of the lamp to the terminal with the black wire...still nothing)

I don't have another SSR and this one is brand new so I went ahead and emailed auber

 

[stlbeer]

Yeah, that's probably not going to work wiring up the lamp like that.

Look at this picture.

The RED lines represent the hot line, the YELLOW represent the Neutral line, and the Green represents the Ground wire.

The black lines are the control lines from the PID.

Ignore the element switch after the SSR. Focus on the fact that the red line is the only line going through the load side of the SSR. i.e. hot is switched. The power flows from the hot side, does work, then flows back through the neutral side. Think of it as a water fall doing work. It has a source and it has a return. Only switch the source. then it will work.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Yea I'm beginning to understand how the SSR works (well in an elementary way)
Auber sent me a wiring diagram to test the SSR. Assuming I wired it correctly the SSR failed the test for the same reason it was in my controller. Nothing is coming on at any point >_<
I've got an electrical engineer friend coming over today. I'll let him peek at it and let me know if thats whats actually wrong, but so far all signs point to yes

(also that diagram hurts my eyes, man so blurry. I really like the design though, I may eventually upgrade to it if I can get past PID101)

 

[stlbeer]

That's fine. Let me know how it turns out. Sorry about the blurry picture - it was blown up from photobucket. Sucks.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

So I've finally got the PID controller up and running correctly. The only thing that concerns me is the heat exchange gets pretty damn warm to the touch. I used a small project box to house everything. I'm wondering if its getting too warm. Should I not worry about it?
If I were to want to up the size of the heating element to say 4500w, would I need to change anything but the input and output power cords? Is it ok to use my 220v dryer outlet?
I don't have space in my small apartment to house a proper brewstand. Is there an economic way to run a power cable like 60ft to my back porch?(maybe I'll just brew out front if there isn't, that's only like 10ft)