Help! Apt manager freaking out about electric setup, legal issues

[soccerRef]

I think we have taken this farther than necessary at the current time. Re-reading through all of the posts, [ OP correct me if I misinterpreted anything]

The police never actually came out to the location correct? This was simply 2 phone calls? By chance on phone call #1 ( which was prior to her talking to you) she may not have known what things were for, and possibly it was misinterpreted by the police as a still setup of sorts ? [ hell maybe she watched moonshiners and told the cops thats what you had??], then when she confronted you, and you told her it was beer, and said sure bring the cops, this time around she told them it was beer, which is why the change in response from them.. ?

Again it does come down to the lease. Regardless of law, the landlord can create limitations/rules etc to almost anything [ except things specifically not allowed to by law, such as discrimination and what not] Like I said before though, if there is nothing in the lease keeping you from brewing, I would still make the effort to check in with the landlord, if not next time your lease is up you might be handed much different paperwork and terms!

The other thing at play here is the storage in a common area. you mention it is where the laundry machines are for everyone, there might be limitations on what you are allowed to store in there, and a system like this that anyone could just wheel over, plug in and hurt themselves may be a liability to both you, and the landowner.

Doing anything in a rental property is a completely different beast than when you are the homeowner! It completely sucks, I was there before... but at the end of the day you have to remember you are living in someone's investment,and as such they get to drive the rules for the most part!

 

[CUrchin]

You may be surprised. People have home-built welders with parts scavenged from microwaves. I'm sure a property manager would flip their lid over that too, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists in all areas.

Point taken and definitely not here to argue, nor do I disagree with you- I've help my neighbor with his home built airplane to give you an idea--

That said--
If you bring your home built microwave welder over to my house, I wouldn't let you plug it in, and I'm sure your insurance company wouldn't be to crazy about it either. We live in a very legal world, and it's hard to blame a landlord for doing everything in their power to prevent property damage. They don't know if it's a brew setup, a meth lab, a home canning set up, or a distillation device. Best action I can suggest would be to sit down and talk to them about it.

 

[thefost]

I think we have taken this farther than necessary at the current time. Re-reading through all of the posts, [ OP correct me if I misinterpreted anything]

The police never actually came out to the location correct? This was simply 2 phone calls? By chance on phone call #1 ( which was prior to her talking to you) she may not have known what things were for, and possibly it was misinterpreted by the police as a still setup of sorts ? [ hell maybe she watched moonshiners and told the cops thats what you had??], then when she confronted you, and you told her it was beer, and said sure bring the cops, this time around she told them it was beer, which is why the change in response from them.. ?

You are pretty much correct. I'm not entirely sure what went down before I was called (I think she was trying to scare me), but yeah no cops ever showed up once everyone figure out homebrew is legal. I'm currently waiting for a call back from her to continue working things out.

 

[whoaru99]

You may be surprised. People have home-built welders with parts scavenged from microwaves. I'm sure a property manager would flip their lid over that too, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists in all areas.

Indeed. I have a freshly cannibalized MOT (microwave oven transformer) on my kitchen table right now. Debating if I should play with the high voltage or strip out that winding and instead put a turn or two of 2ga cable though it for low voltage and super current.

 

[Soldevi]

OK let's clear a couple things up.
You have built a brew rig in a common laundry area that's shared with others?

If that's the case I can see why people would freak out regardless if it was legal or not. Does your apt have a range? Or some other way to connect your electrical?

If so I'd try to move your brewing practices inside just to avoid the outside drama.
Out of sight out of mind. People have a hard time accepting something that they don't understand.

 

[thatjonguy]

I would get the hell out of that place. Washer and dryer for the other tenants in your garage? Oh F no.

I would guess when your lease is up they won't want you to renew it...

But leave a few bottles with your move-out notice just to rub it in.

 

[kenh]

After readingthis thread I'm soooo glad that I own my own place.....

 

[Paps]

Move out.
Move out NOW.
Regardless of the managers responsibilty to her employers their ignorance is impeding on your rights.
This alone is unacceptable.
Combine that with their first reaction is to try to get you imprisoned.
This too is unacceptable.
Sure moving sucks but being the landlords ***** sucks worse.

 

[whoaru99]

Move out.
Move out NOW.
Regardless of the managers responsibilty to her employers their ignorance is impeding on your rights.
This alone is unacceptable.
Combine that with their first reaction is to try to get you imprisoned.
This too is unacceptable.
Sure moving sucks but being the landlords ***** sucks worse.

Sorry to inform you that your hobbies don't outweigh a potential safety concern for the other occupants.

 

[Epimetheus]

I think we have taken this farther than necessary at the current time. ...

The police never actually came out to the location correct? This was simply 2 phone calls?

Ah, I misread the OP. Now I understand that two phone calls are much less magnitude of excitement than a visit from said gendarmes.

To defuse the excitement, could you reduce your ambitions to 2.5 gallon batches or smaller? That allows you to brew on your kitchen stove.

I built a 1500W heatstick and regularly boil 2.5 gallons on the workbench from a single 15A GFCI outlet. I can boil 6 or 7 gallons on the electric stove with an assist from the single heatstick. It helped that I insulated the 30 liter pot with 3 layers of Reflectix.

 

[raouliii]

MHO:

I would not, knowingly, allow a tenant to operate a high current, handmade electrical appliance in or on rented property without an iron clad indemnity contract protecting the owner from loss. This contract would have to specifically reference the fact that the appliance is not factory designed or UL tested and include tremendous monetary coverage for life, limb and property damage. But that's me.

We may have the right to brew but in no way does that give us the right to endanger the property or health of others. Paying rent doesn't change these rights or lack thereof. This also holds true for us that "own" our homes, considering that a mortgage company owns a portion of many of our homes and an insurance company provides coverage for damage. An insurance investigation that uncovers a, non-UL tested, handmade electrical appliance as the source of a loss, would most certainly result in a lost battle for restitution.

 

[TallDan]

MHO:

I would not, knowingly, allow a tenant to operate a high current, handmade electrical appliance in or on rented property without an iron clad indemnity contract protecting the owner from loss. This contract would have to specifically reference the fact that the appliance is not factory designed or UL tested and include tremendous monetary coverage for life, limb and property damage. But that's me.

We may have the right to brew but in no way does that give us the right to endanger the property or health of others. Paying rent doesn't change these rights or lack thereof. This also holds true for us that "own" our homes, considering that a mortgage company owns a portion of many of our homes and an insurance company provides coverage for damage. An insurance investigation that uncovers a, non-UL tested, handmade electrical appliance as the source of a loss, would most certainly result in a lost battle for restitution.

Seriously? You have a lot of electronics in your home that are less safe than a properly built heat stick or electric brewing setup. Just because it was sealed in a box when you purchased it doesn't mean it's safe. Heat sticks are just homemade bucket heaters. I'll bet that a lot of the heat sticks that have been made by homebrewers are better built than a cheap one that you can buy at a store. The heating elements that most homebrewers use were made for water heaters and other home appliances. Go and inspect the wiring in an old electric stove, i'll bet you you'll find something that's scarier to you than anything you'll find in a homebrewers heat stick.

How is homebrewing that much different than making a big batch of chili or soup anyway? Deep frying turkeys is more more dangerous than homebrewing, and there are tons of turkey friers on the market. When used carefully and properly it's safe, but plenty of people have screwed it up and burned their houses or garages down. At least a boilover when you're homebrewing doesn't result in a grease fire.

We all do tons of things every day that are dangerous if done wrong. Just because you can burn your apartment down by putting a metal pan in the microwave doesn't mean that microwaves are unsafe, it just means that they must be operated correctly. Same for a stove, oven, or even hot water coming out of a tap.

The AHA estimates that over 1 million Americans brew beer at home at least once a year. If your landlord has had more than 600 tenants, odds are they've had more than one homebrewer. How many homes or apartments have been burned down by homebrewers?

 

[crazyirishman34]

I think that the real problem is that if a homemade device is proven to cause the fire the insurance company is sure to reject the claim. But not all appliances that are sold in the US are UL listed.

 

[Cyclman]

^^^^ This. It is a potentially huge liability for the building owner. Technically, if a fire was started by non UL approved equipment, they might not be indemnified for damages by their insurer.

 

[TallDan]

^^^^ This. It is a potentially huge liability for the building owner. Technically, if a fire was started by non UL approved equipment, they might not be indemnified for damages by their insurer.

If this equipment is used properly (with a GFCI outlet) It will not start a fire.

As previously mentioned, there is no requirement for for electronics sold to consumers to be UL approved. A lot are, but I'm sure you have some in your home that are not.

 

[Hamaki]

OP I believe you mentioned that you checked with the apartment electrician regarding circuits. I'm guessing you may have explained why you asked. I would assume that since this is the "apartment electrician" the manager might have some faith in his/her judgment. While an electrician cannot (and would not be inclined to) certify an appliance, they may be willing to take a look at your work and advise the manager whether they see anything that they are concerned about. Maybe with that reassurance and a brief rundown of the brewing process, including where you plan to brew, the manager will breathe easier. Best of luck to you

 

[TallDan]

As an example of another hobby that might have this same concern, and some seemingly good conversation on the topic, check out this thread over at audiogon, a site dedicated to audiophiles:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1053576035&read&keyw&zzbad+company+bad+company

The last post on the page is a pretty good reminder that insurance companies are in the business of providing peace of mind to their customers. This includes customers that make their own electric toys. No party involved here, lessor, lessee, property manger, lessor's insurer, or lessee's insurer, want the place to burn down, but if it does happen, it will be covered by insurance because that's what insurers do. They provide peace of mind to their customers.

 

[thadius856]

Electricians are not qualified to approve the safety of appliances that get plugged in to code compliant circuits. That's the job of UL, et.al.

This. I reached out to several electricians a year or two ago when I was pulling permits to re-wire my kitchen. I just wanted an additional pair of eyes before the inspector visited. I couldn't even get any of them to look over because of fear of liability.

First, get that stuff out of a public place where it can be seen. That will immediately defuse the situation to some extent. Out of sight, etc.

I would get the hell out of that place. Washer and dryer for the other tenants in your garage? Oh F no.

These.

Why do other tenants have access to your garage? That pile of stainless you're building is going to look extremely tempting to thieves.

Why are the outdoor outlets not on a separate circuit from the indoor outlets? Perhaps not a code violation, but poor practice.

How do you have money to build a potentially $5,000 brewing system, but not the space to store it securely or the money to move out of a crummy situation?

Sorry OP. Sounds like you're not in the position to be taking on this project right now. I know that's probably not what you want to hear. Fix the situation and get back to building, or scrap the project. My rental history indicates this situation will not be possible to resolve in your current location.

 

[YellowHammer]

The apartment complex should have an electrician on thier payroll. That's who should check your work. Otherwise see if a trustworthy local electrician will check it out for a few homebrews. They could probably give you some tips on how to set everything up anyway...good luck.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Home Brew mobile app

 

[thadius856]

The apartment complex should have an electrician on thier payroll. That's who should check your work. Otherwise see if a trustworthy local electrician will check it out for a few homebrews. They could probably give you some tips on how to set everything up anyway...good luck.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Home Brew mobile app

As mentioned several times already, electricians do not certify appliances. They certify residential, business and industrial wiring. And usually only if it's their own.

I'm very doubtful you'll find somebody to certify this.

 

[YellowHammer]

It sounds like this lessor just wants to cover their own ass. If someone that they know and trust says that it's good to go, they're likely to move along. I never said anything about "certifying". This is more or less a matter of safety. Any worthwhile electrician could check it out.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Home Brew mobile app

 

[crazyirishman34]

There is no way that a licensed electrician is going to look at your control box and give an opinion. Too much liability

 

[thadius856]

There is no way that a licensed electrician is going to look at your control box and give an opinion. Too much liability

+1

Notice the post above is written by a licensed electrician.

 

[raouliii]

Seriously?....

Yes.

....You have a lot of electronics in your home that are less safe than a properly built heat stick or electric brewing setup......I'll bet that a lot of the heat sticks that have been made by homebrewers are better built than a cheap one that you can buy at a store. ...

I'll have to disagree on the first statement. I can't come up with an example of a piece of store-bought electronics in my home that has an exposed surface that can burn the meat off of my hand. Kitchen appliances, yes.

The crux of the matter is that there will be some improperly built heat sticks or e-brew kettles. These are the ones that are the problem. How does one KNOW that it is properly built? A safe home-built electric brewing setup is certainly achievable by someone with a decent knowledge of the subject. However, the measure of safety comes down to many design details that electrical novices just don't possess the knowledge to always get right. I've read posts on hbt asking electrical questions in such a way that it is obvious that the poster should not be even considering the build they are discussing.

....Deep frying turkeys is more more dangerous than homebrewing, and there are tons of turkey friers on the market. When used carefully and properly it's safe, but plenty of people have screwed it up and burned their houses or garages down. At least a boilover when you're homebrewing doesn't result in a grease fire.....

Agreed. You won't find many turkey fryers that are UL listed. When a garage gets set on fire while using one, I'll bet it's a living hell to get insurance to pay up. Given all that, I still safely fry 5 turkeys every Thanksgiving as I have determined that my knowledge and experience of the process allows the margin of safety I require.

.....We all do tons of things every day that are dangerous if done wrong. Just because you can burn your apartment down by putting a metal pan in the microwave doesn't mean that microwaves are unsafe, it just means that they must be operated correctly. Same for a stove, oven, or even hot water coming out of a tap.....

Sure. We can certainly mis-use appliances and create dangerous situations. At least with a UL stamp, it's not likely the inherent design of the appliance that caused the problem, but the user.

I stand by my earlier post. Seriously.

 

[TallDan]

I stand by my earlier post. Seriously.

Then I suspect that if you are a landlord or property manager, you have a bad problem with insomnia. The bottom line is that there are million things that tenants do on a regular basis that you would not approve of, and you have no means of doing anything about. The least of your worries should be a homebrewer with a heatstick.

 

[Thedutchtouch]

Sorry, but it seems like you're SOL. It's not a safety thing or a what's right/wrong, it's simply liability and money. If the apartment burns down, they'll pin it on you and your homemade appliance, insurance won't cover it and you'll be on the hook for the repair bill. Insurance claims have been denied over altered power cords on UL listed appliances, do you really think they'll let this obvious scapegoat go blameless? It seems like there's not much you can do other than trying to convince the apartment manager that it's OK (good luck). I've rented places where you weren't allowed to have a grill even though the apartments had concrete patios, or that you weren't allowed candles or electric heaters.

seems like you've got 3 options to me- 1. convince management you've abandoned the project or will use the stand outside only, decide on your own if you're going to use this thing or not. hope you don't get caught with it if you do continue to brew indoors. 2. fight management, lose, be forced to abandon project, hope to not get caught with it if you dont. 3. move.

If i were you i'd attempt 1 until i could pull off 3. for example, i once had a grill that i merely STORED on my concrete patio, and "every time" i used it, i "moved it offsite".

 

[Thedutchtouch]

Then I suspect that if you are a landlord or property manager, you have a bad problem with insomnia. The bottom line is that there are million things that tenants do on a regular basis that you would not approve of, and you have no means of doing anything about. The least of your worries should be a homebrewer with a heatstick.

If i was a landlord, and i found out about a tenant using a homemade heatstick/ homemade wiring to homebrew in my building, i would also refuse to allow it. As a homebrewer myself, I'd like t othink that I'd try to offer an alternative, but at the end of the day, they may burn down my building so something's got to be done. It's about limiting liability and decreasing the chances of something going wrong, because if the insurance company finds out i knew and did nothing, claim denied.

 

[Hamaki]

I believe OP said the plan IS to brew on the patio. I think that reduces the potential fire risk to a great extent. I think between that fact and the apartment electrician taking a look at what he's got (assuming it's a decent build) the manager should have no rational cause to over-react. Again, I don't expect the electrician to certify anything, but how many times have I seen on this forum folks recommend to neophytes that they have a qualified electrician look at their project before using it? Same thing here; may benefit OP & ease the manager's worried mind.

 

[gometz]

Tinkering with electronics is a perfectly legal and safe hobby, just like homebrewing beer. The property manager made a large and incorrect jump to conclusions based on what they saw. Regardless what he/she sees in movies, TV dramas and sometimes the news, most people do not have the hobby of harming others.

Ah but here is where legal and allowed diverge: your lease.

Many leases of apartment do not allow for guns or even dogs of "dangerous breeds", despite both being completely legal. I am still not 100% sure they know what I do in my apartment, considering I brew on the electric stove (I have burnt out a terminal and two of the dip bowls are burnt up), and they may tell me to stop be section X.YY.ZZZ of my lease agreement.

Legal documents are funny like that, they leave out specifics often.

 

[thadius856]

Ah but here is where legal and allowed diverge: your lease.

Many leases of apartment do not allow for guns or even dogs of "dangerous breeds", despite both being completely legal. I am still not 100% sure they know what I do in my apartment, considering I brew on the electric stove (I have burnt out a terminal and two of the dip bowls are burnt up), and they may tell me to stop be section X.YY.ZZZ of my lease agreement.

Legal documents are funny like that, they leave out specifics often.

OT, but...

...every apartment I've moved out of has deduced 4 drip pans from my deposit, no matter how clean and shiny I manage to get them. Consider it a move-in cost. Also, carpet shampooing and painting walls.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I would be concerned even if you can talk to your apartment manager, just wait until you roll the setup out on brew day, you've mentioned that the garage is a public area with the community washer and dryer, it is inevitable that someone will see an open flame, boiling water/wort, and smell aromas that they've never smelled before.

All that you need is one dumba$$ complain that they didn't feel safe, or they are worried about children or pets that can get burned, or complain that you are making moonshine (you know that there are people just dumb enough to think it), or the smell burned their nose or throat (again, there is always one in every crowd), or worse, complain that they are afraid that you are going to burn the apartment complex down because you are plugged into an outlet.....

I hate to add to your frustrations, but if I were you I'd either brew on the stove in smaller batches, remember, "out of sight, out of mind", or start looking for a new place. If the apartment manager called the cops on you without even approaching you first, she/he doesn't give a rats ass how long you've been a problem free tenant, I think that the writing is on the wall, if you continue with your build and start to brew, you are only looking for trouble.

 

[thadius856]

If i was a landlord, and i found out about a tenant using a homemade heatstick/ homemade wiring to homebrew in my building, i would also refuse to allow it. As a homebrewer myself, I'd like t othink that I'd try to offer an alternative, but at the end of the day, they may burn down my building so something's got to be done. It's about limiting liability and decreasing the chances of something going wrong, because if the insurance company finds out i knew and did nothing, claim denied.

I hear you. I went through the mess of an attic fire and subsequent homeowners claim two years ago. The insurance company dug as deep as they could, down to interviewing neighbors, to try to get out of playing the claim.

In the end, it turned out that a previous owner had a RENTER who had re-wired the dryer circuit with single-strand aluminum wire. Inspector didn't catch it, I didn't catch it, and boom, fire a year after moving in. I only learned about this a few months after the claim closed out, from a neighbor he'd bragged to.

He'd also run an exterior outlet box mounted on the rear patio. Two main problems. 1) he used romex outdoors and 2) he clipped the romex at the box, removed the box from the stucco, and left the live cord hanging. My inspector came pretty close to nuking himself on it.

The point is, tenants do stupid things with electricity. It's not out off-base for an apartment manager to see what she saw and expect the worst. You may be responsible, but s/he has no way of knowing that.

 

[gometz]

OT, but...

...every apartment I've moved out of has deduced 4 drip pans from my deposit, no matter how clean and shiny I manage to get them. Consider it a move-in cost. Also, carpet shampooing and painting walls.

I have been lucky enough to only have that happen once (out of 4 move outs) and will spend the money on new drip pans when I move.

Back on topic then!

 

[Paps]

Sorry to inform you that your hobbies don't outweigh a potential safety concern for the other occupants.

My hobbies are nobody elses fkkking business.
If a landlord tries to tell me what LEGAL things i may or may not do
I will NOT provide them with further income.
I've had places tell me i can't have a dog...
Guess what....They didn't get my money.
If they want to refuse the guy his right to ho9mebrew on their property it IS
their property HOWEVER if it were me it would cost THEM the income from my rent.
PERIOD.

 

[gometz]

My hobbies are nobody elses fkkking business.
If a landlord tries to tell me what LEGAL things i may or may not do
I will NOT provide them with further income.
I've had places tell me i can't have a dog...
Guess what....They didn't get my money.
If they want to refuse the guy his right to ho9mebrew on their property it IS
their property HOWEVER if it were me it would cost THEM the income from my rent.
PERIOD.

No one is telling you what you can do, but it is their property and so they can tell you what you are allowed to do. But like you said, then don't rent there. Unless your all ahead of time, you may not know whether homebrewing (and in what way) is allowed.

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[whoaru99]

My hobbies are nobody elses fkkking business.
If a landlord tries to tell me what LEGAL things i may or may not do
I will NOT provide them with further income.
I've had places tell me i can't have a dog...
Guess what....They didn't get my money.
If they want to refuse the guy his right to ho9mebrew on their property it IS
their property HOWEVER if it were me it would cost THEM the income from my rent.
PERIOD.

Thats fine, that's your call, but that has nothing to do with the point of my post.

They can't make you stop brewing beer, but they can kick your ass out for not playing well with others.

 

[thefost]

OP here, thought I should post an update. Taking this threads advice, I redoubled my efforts to calm down my apt manager and the situation has gotten a lot better. Now that she really understands I'm doing nothing illegal or dangerous (she was worried about a giant explosion killing the kids upstairs apparently...) we'll probably be able to work something out. In the mean time I'm just gonna continue brewing on my glass top stove which works fine for 5 gallon batches. Not ideal, but she's now being pretty accommodating and this thread has really made me understand her position a lot better. Just wanted to say thanks everyone for your help!

 

[kenh]

OP here, thought I should post an update. Taking this threads advice, I redoubled my efforts to calm down my apt manager and the situation has gotten a lot better. Now that she really understands I'm doing nothing illegal or dangerous (she was worried about a giant explosion killing the kids upstairs apparently...) we'll probably be able to work something out. In the mean time I'm just gonna continue brewing on my glass top stove which works fine for 5 gallon batches. Not ideal, but she's now being pretty accommodating and this thread has really made me understand her position a lot better. Just wanted to say thanks everyone for your help!

Looks like you are going the right direction. Next step is to invite her over to learn how to brew, giver her the date and roll out the equipment you have been working so hard on - on that date for a brew session. She may not stop by but at least when a nosy neighbor calls she will be able to tell him she already knows what you are doing!

 

[TallDan]

OP here, thought I should post an update. Taking this threads advice, I redoubled my efforts to calm down my apt manager and the situation has gotten a lot better. Now that she really understands I'm doing nothing illegal or dangerous (she was worried about a giant explosion killing the kids upstairs apparently...) we'll probably be able to work something out. In the mean time I'm just gonna continue brewing on my glass top stove which works fine for 5 gallon batches. Not ideal, but she's now being pretty accommodating and this thread has really made me understand her position a lot better. Just wanted to say thanks everyone for your help!

Thanks for updating us! Good to hear that things have cooled down. Hopefully this is the last you hear from the Property Manager on this topic!

 

[Zuljin]

Damn. I was hoping for someone to get choked out with a length of extension cord.