Help! Apt manager freaking out about electric setup, legal issues

[thefost]

So I'm in the process of building a 3x120v circuit control panel to control 4 1500w elements with a bcs-462. Yesterday my apartment manager saw my work in progress and freaked out and called the cops. The cops apparently told her that my homebrewing was illegal, and she demanded I get rid of everything.

I tried to calm her down and explain the legalities of homebrewing, but that didn't really work so I told her to let the cops stop by and check everything out. She called the cops again and apparently they told her this time that it is legal to brew 150 gallons per year (wrong but close enough) and this calmed her down a bit. She now wants me to have the fire department come check it out and confirm its all fire safe before she contacts the landlord and apparently he gets to decide whether i'm allowed to keep any of my homebrewing gear.

So now I have to get this stuff approved somehow asap. I'm sure all my propane gear is fine, but my heat stick and contol box look sketchy Is this something the fire department inspects, and would they even understand whats going on in a control box? My box isn't even done yet. Would they find electrical elements threaded to a stainless steel vessle and igloo cooler acceptable? I don't even know the legalities of wiring up my own things, I would assume that its legal to make a control box but I have no idea.

Any help would be appreciated because I am really worried and really confused here!

 

[rodwha]

Wow!

I can understand her freaking out with you working on an electrical panel, but I don't understand why your homebrew was deemed illegal by the police. You need to call down to the police station and talk to someone in charge and have them talk to your manager.

I wouldn't get rid of my stuff if it's not illegal.

Surprised, with the manager freaking so badly, that you aren't being served an eviction notice.

 

[cluckk]

You definitely need to speak to the police supervisor. They gave legal information that was not correct and their officers need to be corrected, especially since their advice will impact your living arrangements, which opens their department to a law suit. As for the management, since it is not illegal, so long as you are not violating your lease, there is not much they can do--depending on the laws of your state. Check with your state laws on rental and leases to see what your legal protections are. Most states have laws protecting tenants from abuse by landlords.

 

[Bobby_M]

As the building owner/manager or whatever, they would normally have no clue about what kind of appliances people are plugging into the electrical system. What kind of environment are we talking about? Are you planning on running the system inside the apartment? How did it turn out that the manager even saw what you were doing? They have the legal right to inspections of the apartment but with some kind of notice. They can't just walk in.

 

[thefost]

Wow!

I can understand her freaking out with you working on an electrical panel, but I don't understand why your homebrew was deemed illegal by the police. You need to call down to the police station and talk to someone in charge and have them talk to your manager.

I wouldn't get rid of my stuff if it's not illegal.

Surprised, with the manager freaking so badly, that you aren't being served an eviction notice.

Sorry, I hadn't finished posting, see above about the cops.
On the plus side I've been a model tennant for years now and I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to lose me. Also I'm not sure if she can evict me just because she doesn't like something I'm doing thats perfectly legal.

 

[thefost]

As the building owner/manager or whatever, they would normally have no clue about what kind of appliances people are plugging into the electrical system. What kind of environment are we talking about? Are you planning on running the system inside the apartment? How did it turn out that the manager even saw what you were doing? They have the legal right to inspections of the apartment but with some kind of notice. They can't just walk in.

I had it stored in my garage. My garage has the community washer and drier in it, so she apparently just wandered in and freaked. I plan to brew by rolling it out to my patio and using available outlets from my patio and inside my apartment. They are not dedicated circuits, but I know all the outlets they are in paralel with so I was planning to just not use them.

 

[thefost]

Also thanks for helping out with the rims tube confusion yesterday bobby, hope I get a chance to use it, lol

 

[TallDan]

A) Calmly talk to the landlord and explain that you are willing to cooperate with reasonable inspection and discussion with the police since everything that you are doing is very easily within the law, but you will not tolerate any any search or inspection that is not done in accordance with your lease agreement and applicable tenant law. There is no reason why your homebrewing equipment should be subject to any additional scrutiny from the landlord, police or fire department, none of which are experts in electricity or safety.

B) Time to move. If the landlord didn't want to lose a tenant, they wouldn't have called the cops on you, they would have talked to you directly and done some cursory homework on homebrewing themselves. You don't need this harassment in your life.

 

[Zuljin]

It's not illegal to brew. It's not something you're hard wiring into to the apartment. I've never heard of the fire dept inspecting appliances for code compliance. I've never heard of city code enforcement doing it either. It sounds like what you need to do is get the manager squared away.

I can understand some concern though. Apartment fires do happen when people plug in unsafe appliances or use appliances unsafely. Apartment fires are bad news. The manager needs to be set straight between legit concern and freaking out.

 

[Zuljin]

B) Time to move. If the landlord didn't want to lose a tenant, they wouldn't have called the cops on you, they would have talked to you directly and done some cursory homework on homebrewing themselves. You don't need this harassment in your life.

And probably this. These don't sound like people you want to do business with any longer.

 

[Wynne-R]

How about getting a licensed electrician to ’bless’ your panel? With the legal thing hammered out, now it’s a safety issue. If you get an invoice that says ‘Yeah I checked it, it’s all up to code’, that should allay their fears.

If you have a local homebrew club, contact them. They probably have an electrician among them.

Tread lightly. At least in Texas, the standard lease is vague enough that management pretty much does what it wants. You have the right to shut up and pay rent.

 

[thefost]

It's not illegal to brew. It's not something you're hard wiring into to the apartment. I've never heard of the fire dept inspecting appliances for code compliance. I've never heard of city code enforcement doing it either. It sounds like what you need to do is get the manager squared away.

I can understand some concern though. Apartment fires do happen when people plug in unsafe appliances or use appliances unsafely. Apartment fires are bad news. The manager needs to be set straight between legit concern and freaking out.

Ok I'm calming down a bit now =)

You are correct, I just called the fire department and they don't inspect these things. "A man's home is his castle" the fire code inspector said

I do want to be safe and reassure her though. Maybe I'll call up an electrician and have him check out my setup and verify that everything is safe.

 

[thefost]

Originally Posted by TallDan View Post

B) Time to move. If the landlord didn't want to lose a tenant, they wouldn't have called the cops on you, they would have talked to you directly and done some cursory homework on homebrewing themselves. You don't need this harassment in your life.


And probably this. These don't sound like people you want to do business with any longer.

True, but I'd prefer not to move because
a) the rent is low
b) my roomate is cool
c) I'm mildly disabled and moving can be quite an ordeal

 

[619Brewer]

At the end of the day, you're most likely at the mercy of the apartment owner/landlord. If you want to continue living there, I would focus on getting on their good side.

If you stop and take it from the standpoint of a landlord, this property is an investment. They don't give a **** about your beer they only care whether you pay your rent and you don't destroy their property. They may not care how safe it actually is, but deny you simply out of not dealing with the hassle. If I were to own your apartments and I were to hear that it's even .5% chance of fire hazard. I would tell you no and if i feared you were going to do it anyways, I would evict you.

Hell maybe you'll be lucky and the owner will be a homebrewer too with a similar set up.

 

[TheZymurgist]

At the end of the day, you're most likely at the mercy of the apartment owner/landlord. If you want to continue living there, I would focus on getting on their good side.

If you stop and take it from the standpoint of a landlord, this property is an investment. They don't give a **** about your beer they only care whether you pay your rent and you don't destroy their property. They may not care how safe it actually is, but deny you simply out of not dealing with the hassle. If I were to own your apartments and I were to hear that it's even .5% chance of fire hazard. I would tell you no and if i feared you were going to do it anyways, I would evict you.

Hell maybe you'll be lucky and the owner will be a homebrewer too with a similar set up.

It's not just an investment, it's their livelihood. They're not only wanting to protect their future, but their tenants as well.

If it were me, I'd have an electrician look over the box regardless of where I was living. I don't trust myself or the internet enough to know whether it's actually safe and properly built.

 

[619Brewer]

Sorry, I hadn't finished posting, see above about the cops.
On the plus side I've been a model tennant for years now and I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to lose me. Also I'm not sure if she can evict me just because she doesn't like something I'm doing thats perfectly legal.

In California, you can be asked to leave for any reason they owner wants pretty much so long as they provide proper notice (60 days if you've lived there for more than 2 years). It wouldn't be an eviction though it would just be them telling you they aren't going to rent to you anymore.

However, if you're in a lease in which the term has not completed, they would have to get you out on the grounds of breaking the lease agreement. Then it would be an eviction, but they would have to give you warnings first (3 day perform or quit).

 

[TallDan]

Ok I'm calming down a bit now =)

You are correct, I just called the fire department and they don't inspect these things. "A man's castle is his home" the fire code inspector said

I do want to be safe and reassure her though. Maybe I'll call up an electrician and have him check out my setup and verify that everything is safe.

You are doing nothing wrong, the police and even the fire department have confirmed that they have no concerns with this. You're inviting trouble and allowing the the landlord to over step their bounds by consenting to an electrical inspection of your equipment.

A good electrician would probably have concerns with half of the electronics in your home if subject to a thorough inspection. Your heatstick is less dangerous than a curling iron when used properly and properly maintained.

I know that I am coming off as being dickish about how I would handle the situation, but if your landlord is the type to fly off the handle like they have proven to be, you do not want to take chances and give them an opportunity to find something else they don't like. You have accommodated them so far, and you should continue to be friendly about it, but you should not let them overstep their bounds.

This is spoken from someone who is currently a tenant in a landlord/tenant relationship and will likely soon be a landlord as well.

 

[619Brewer]

I'm sorry to clutter your thread but I wanted to make something clear. What you're doing doesn't have to be illegal necessarily for your landlord to tell you to kick rocks.

Just because what you're doing is not illegal just means you won't go to jail! But it absolutely doesn't mean it won't piss off your landlord and have them ask you to leave.

Those are two separate issues.

Since it's not illegal, you won't get arrested...but if I were you I'd be more concerned with getting kicked out. And unless you plan on fighting (and paying for that fight) you will most likely lose.

 

[TallDan]

True, but I'd prefer not to move because
a) the rent is low
b) my roomate is cool
c) I'm mildly disabled and moving can be quite an ordeal

Well, if this thing blows over and they don't hassle you any more, there's probably nothing to worry about. As much as a hassle moving is (I know it well) your quality of life depends on being able to do the things that make you happy without living in fear of harassment from those around you. Further, as others have mentioned, if they want you out, they will get you out, and it's much easier to move on your own terms and timeline than someone else's, so keep that in mind if this this doesn't blow over quickly.

 

[thefost]

Thank you all, you make excellent points. I need to figure out a game plan here and call my apartment manager. Maybe if she has cooled off a bit things won't be so bad. I really don't want to move so I'll try to be accommodating, but if she's too difficult I'll just move

 

[CUrchin]

My thought would be to try to smooth things over with the owner.

An electrician probably won't want to touch it. What really is in it for them other than a hour's pay and a ton of liability? You could wave that heat stick around like Luke Skywalker for all they know.

You are also building an non-approved appliance i.e. UL or a similar lab has not tested it for safety. Don't want code enforcement or the fire department poking around too much.

In addition to fire, there are other risks to the building owner. What if a tap leaks and floods out their floor? What if you switch your brew rig to "moonshine mode" in the middle of the night? Sure your brew rig doesn't do that, but they don't know that.

There isn't anything in this for the owner and the more you get people looking at it, the more problems you could have. Smooth it over with the owner if at all possible and move one, IMO.

 

[rodwha]

If you are in San Antonio, TX and need help moving PM me.

I'm curious about your electrical panel. Is there reason to doubt it's safety? Does it just look questionable?

 

[b-boy]

I can understand why she would freak out. Think about how these setups look to the uninitiated. It looks like something you'd see in an old Frankenstein movie. She's probably expecting electrical arching between equipment when you fire the thing up. Combine that with the lab images from 'Breaking Bad' and you can see why she might freak out.

Why not offer to have her stop by when you brew. Show her how the setup works. Once she sees your making something that more closely resembles Cream of Wheat than Meth, she might back off.

 

[Bobby_M]

A lot of people in the thread haven't picked up on the fact that the person doing all the freaking out is the apartment manager who'd job is to overreact and tell the landlord about all sorts of things. My guess is that it's someone that lives in the building and is getting free rent for this job title and the last thing they want is to lose the job.

Electricians are not qualified to approve the safety of appliances that get plugged in to code compliant circuits. That's the job of UL, et.al.

 

[soccerRef]

As others have mentioned
- step 1 is to go over your lease! the short term answer may be in there in black and white.

with that step though sit down with the manager ( and possibly see if you can schedule a joint meeting with the manager and owner ( depending on your situation/owner situation ) and simply go over exactly what you are doing. Most of the brewing process is no different than cooking or baking in your residence. you are boiling water, then boiling wort... The rest of the process is nothing remotely unsafe.

It would be best to work with them on this if you want to stay, just because its not in the lease now doesn't mean it won't be whenever time to sign a new lease comes up!!

 

[alestateyall]

How are you going to run 4 1500W elements at once? That is 50A of current at 120V. The breakers at your apartment are probably 15A or 20A?

To simultaneously operate 4 1500W elements you really need 4 separate 20A circuits.

 

[soccerRef]

How are you going to run 4 1500W elements at once? That is 50A of current at 120V. The breakers at your apartment are probably 15A or 20A?

To simultaneously operate 4 1500W elements you really need 4 separate 20A circuits.

I don't believe they ever said they were going to run all 4 elements at the same time, just a panel to control 4 elements.

He also mentioned he will have 3x120 circuits in play, and said he knows what runs off each to avoid overloading, this would mean up to 3 elements could run at the same time, each pulling just under 13 amps, [ if he gets true 120 V ]

He mentioned a RIMS tube I believe, so I would maybe guess the 4 elements are (1) HLT, (1) RIMS tube, (2) Boil Kettle ? which would work fine with the setup mentioned

 

[thefost]

I don't believe they ever said they were going to run all 4 elements at the same time, just a panel to control 4 elements.

He also mentioned he will have 3x120 circuits in play, and said he knows what runs off each to avoid overloading, this would mean up to 3 elements could run at the same time, each pulling just under 13 amps, [ if he gets true 120 V ]

He mentioned a RIMS tube I believe, so I would maybe guess the 4 elements are (1) HLT, (1) RIMS tube, (2) Boil Kettle ? which would work fine with the setup mentioned

100% correct on all accounts. I actually did contact my apartment electrician months ago and he said that there wouldn't be any problem with overloading.

 

[chickens4life]

How are you going to run 4 1500W elements at once? That is 50A of current at 120V. The breakers at your apartment are probably 15A or 20A?

To simultaneously operate 4 1500W elements you really need 4 separate 20A circuits.

which he said he is using in one of the posts on page 1. plus i think the system only uses 3 at a time (so he only needs 3 circuts, and really they only need to be 15A).

 

[TallDan]

How are you going to run 4 1500W elements at once? That is 50A of current at 120V. The breakers at your apartment are probably 15A or 20A?

To simultaneously operate 4 1500W elements you really need 4 separate 20A circuits.

Unfortunately, that's completely irrelevant here. Whether his system is well designed or even safe doesn't actually matter. The property manager did not question it because he's repeatedly blowing fuses or causing electrical problems in the building. The interaction did not start over a concern over the safety of the brewer or even the safety of the property or tenants. It started with the property manager "freaking out" and calling law enforcement because they saw something they didn't understand. We're not talking about someone who is acting rationally here, and unfortunately, the irrationally acting person is in a relative position of power over our friend the homebrewer.

 

[soccerRef]

Unfortunately, that's completely irrelevant here. Whether his system is well designed or even safe doesn't actually matter. The property manager did not question it because he's repeatedly blowing fuses or causing electrical problems in the building. The interaction did not start over a concern over the safety of the brewer or even the safety of the property or tenants. It started with the property manager "freaking out" and calling law enforcement because they saw something they didn't understand. We're not talking about someone who is acting rationally here, and unfortunately, the irrationally acting person is in a relative position of power over our friend the homebrewer.

I don't think the manager was at all out of line to originally call the police.... their job is to manage the building/apt, the walked into a common area and saw something that looked out of place. To the untrained person they could have thought it was a moon shining rig... or at the very least something that could be dangerous, or to make something/do something illegal. It was then the police that did the disservice of not knowing the law. They are the ones that then told the manager that brewing beer was illegal, which in turn I can understand the manager freaking out, someone is doing something illegal in the building they manage!

So now the whole situation is backwards, and unnecessary, so hopefully just some smoothing over can bring level heads back into play!

 

[TallDan]

I don't think the manager was at all out of line to originally call the police.... their job is to manage the building/apt, the walked into a common area and saw something that looked out of place. To the untrained person they could have thought it was a moon shining rig... or at the very least something that could be dangerous, or to make something/do something illegal. It was then the police that did the disservice of not knowing the law. They are the ones that then told the manager that brewing beer was illegal, which in turn I can understand the manager freaking out, someone is doing something illegal in the building they manage!

In my opinion, seeing something you don't understand, freaking out and calling the police is out of line. A more appropriate response would be to ask the tenant some questions and get some understanding of what they see. We're not talking about things that are completely unfamiliar here, we're talking about some big pots and electric heaters. Caterers have equipment that looks about the same to the untrained eye.

 

[soccerRef]

part of what the manager saw was a partially finished control panel, not just some pots... I can easily see how a control box could look like possibly a different project...
Even if they knew it was for brewing... in today's society where we read about daily shootings, people losing it over toys at the holidays I don't see it as that big of a deal to make a phone call to the police... in which the convo should have ended with no ma'am homebrewing is completely legal, nothing to worry about.

 

[TallDan]

part of what the manager saw was a partially finished control panel, not just some pots... I can easily see how a control box could look like possibly a different project...
Even if they knew it was for brewing... in today's society where we read about daily shootings, people losing it over toys at the holidays I don't see it as that big of a deal to make a phone call to the police... in which the convo should have ended with no ma'am homebrewing is completely legal, nothing to worry about.

Tinkering with electronics is a perfectly legal and safe hobby, just like homebrewing beer. The property manager made a large and incorrect jump to conclusions based on what they saw. Regardless what he/she sees in movies, TV dramas and sometimes the news, most people do not have the hobby of harming others.

 

[whoaru99]

We're not talking about things that are completely unfamiliar here, we're talking about some big pots and electric heaters.

I can think of a couple things besides brewing that might cross someone's mind when they encounter such apparatus.

You have the luxury of knowing in hindsight what was going on and familiar with brewing. The manager (or whomever it was) didn't.

In hindsight it's an overreaction. She may have well thought she was busting up the beginnings of a meth lab. That's something you just want to barge right into. Yeah...

 

[processhead]

Tinkering with electronics is a perfectly legal and safe hobby, just like homebrewing beer. The property manager made a large and incorrect jump to conclusions based on what they saw. Regardless what he/she sees in movies, TV dramas and sometimes the news, most people do not have the hobby of harming others.

Assuming the point of view of the manager, if I saw something that could potentially damage property or injure a tenant, I would have reacted the same way.

Part of the manager's job is to keep all the tenants and property safe. Brewing activities assume some level of risk, and that risk varies all over the map depending on the skill and judgement of the brewer.

Your gear may be well designed and constructed. You may be using it in a safe responsible way. Or not.

Your task is to convince the property manager that it is the former and not the latter.

 

[CUrchin]

Most people "tinkering with electronics" don't have 6,000 watts of heating elements in play that could go up in smoke in a matter of seconds... Just sayin'

 

[TallDan]

Most people "tinkering with electronics" don't have 6,000 watts of heating elements in play that could go up in smoke in a matter of seconds... Just sayin'

You may be surprised. People have home-built welders with parts scavenged from microwaves. I'm sure a property manager would flip their lid over that too, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists in all areas.

 

[processhead]

You may be surprised. People have home-built welders with parts scavenged from microwaves. I'm sure a property manager would flip their lid over that too, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of hobbyists in all areas.

I have seen resourceful brewers assemble some amazing equipment, and I have seen some rigs that looked like a fire just waiting to start.

A good property manager would probably assume the worst case until they could be shown otherwise.

 

[Epimetheus]

First, get that stuff out of a public place where it can be seen. That will immediately defuse the situation to some extent. Out of sight, etc.

Second, you need a game plan. It does not start with the apartment manager or the landlord or the police. It begins and ends with your lease. Read it again. Look for odd clauses that mention approved appliances or similar. Anything about making food or alcohol. Anything about large things that hold water. Look for clauses about hotplates which are often forbidden - people can put them on furniture and turn them on. Clauses about cooking in public areas or is it limited to the installed stove?

At the same time, contact a tenant's advocacy group in your area. Get that ball rolling. Use the mildly disablement in your favor. Explain the situation. Tell them you want to cook stuff in one or more big pots and brewing beer is legal. Ask them how to take the tension out of the situation.

Aside: Strangely enough, it is not the police's job to know every aspect of the law - that is hashed out in court, where you do not want to take this simply because of expense. The police try their hardest to make reasonable judgments on the spot - they are not advisers of the law, as you have seen.

It is not an electrician's job to OK something you built at home. A housing inspector can report on changes to building wiring, not the stuff you plug into it.