Help: 50 A 3 Element RIMS

[jEld]

After a long (a little too long) hiatus from HBT to finish my entire basement I am back, and have caught the electric brew indoors bug. I've searched high and low and cannot find exactly what I am looking for so I figured I would put this out there.


Here are my goals:

-I will likely do 10-15 gallon batches, potentially back to back with the aid of a NG stove top 15 feet from the brew stand.

-50 Amp service to my (currently) unfinished brew room. It is only about a 15' run to my panel that already has a 50 A GFCI ready to go from the hot tub I'm about to get rid of.

-I would like to run a 5500 W element in both the BK and the HLT, although not at the same time.

-I would like to be able to run a 5500 W element @ 120 V inside of the RIMS tube while the HLT or BK elements are firing. This would allow me to hit strike/boil temps faster.


I have not been able to locate any builds that have achieved this over the past couple days of searching.

I have decided upon RIMS because I want to have more responsive control over mash temps. Any advice you can give me is much appreciated.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I haven't seen a commercial unit designed to run 3 elements like this.

It would be fairly easy to achieve if you were building your own controller. In fact, it would also be fairly easy to upgrade a 2-element controller to power the RIMS if you were not confident enough to take on a full build.

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...ontrol-panel-2-elements-ding-and-dent-special

You could buy that and wire in an additional element connection and SSR to be driven off the HLT PID.

 

[thekraken]

What is your intent for the NG stove you mentioned?

Sounds like you only need a selector for the 5500w elements...

How many pumps?

 

[BeardedBrews]

Oops, forgot the stove, thanks Kraken.

Keep the stove over there and use it for Decoctions

 

[mredge73]

With 50A 240v you can run 2x 5500W elements at once, and maybe a pump.
This is easily doable.

Forget about 5500w @120v, that isn't happening. You won't find an element that big and if you did you will need a second spa panel to power it (45A).
Limit at 120v is about 1500W; maxes out a standard wall socket.

To hit boil temps faster, you could put 2 elements inside of your boil kettle and fire them at once.
However this will only save you 12 minutes so it really isn't worth the extra effort in my opinion.

I think you should build a control panel with 2 receptacles hooked to EZ boil controllers.
Install 2x 5500w in your BK, 2x 5500W in your HLT, and 1x 2500W @240v in a rims tube. Each element with a plug on it.
Only 2 can plug in at once; but you will have maximum flexibility and make the best use of your resources.

 

[thekraken]

...
Forget about 5500w @120v, that isn't happening. You won't find an element that big and if you did you will need a second spa panel to power it (45A).
Limit at 120v is about 1500W; maxes out a standard wall socket.
...

I think he meant he wants to use a 5500w/240v heating element at 120v -> 1375w.

 

[BeardedBrews]

After a long (a little too long) hiatus from HBT to finish my entire basement I am back, and have caught the electric brew indoors bug. I've searched high and low and cannot find exactly what I am looking for so I figured I would put this out there.

I just remembered EBrewSupply used to make a kit that used the BCS controller to do exactly what you're thinking about.

https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/bcs-controlled-diy/products/bcs-50a-3-elements-kit

They also have the wiring diagram which you could use to build your own. Just keep in mind that their wiring pattern assumes a 1500w 240v element, you'd have to redirect to Common in place of Leg2 in order to get that plug to function at 120v. Also, they use 3-way switches in all of their BCS panels so you can select between On-Off-Auto. You may or may not want the On option in your build.

If you wanted to use PIDs instead of BCS you can just re-direct those lines. The Auber DSPR-120 (EZBoil) is probably the best choice for all three since it will give you easy break-in for manual heat.
https://ebrewsupply.s3.amazonaws.com/schematics/50a-3E-BCS462-Kit-2014.pdf

 

[jEld]

Wow, thanks for the quick responses. Made the mistake of posting this before parent teacher conferences and I'm getting slammed. Apparently kids don't like physics anymore! I hadn't thought about altering the BCS design to use PIDs instead. I'll certainly look into it.

I should've made this clear earlier, I am a 100% DIY guy, and this project will be no different. I just want to be able to keep up with my 8 tap through-wall keezer without having to lug my old 3-tier natural gas setup through my clean basement.

Regarding the stove, I would only use that to heat my strike water for a second batch.

And yes, I was planning to use the 240 V 5500 W Element in the rims knocked down to 120 V to keep scorching to a minimum. I'm even tossing around the idea of having the element switchable to 240 V in an effort to speed up that strike water.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I should've made this clear earlier, I am a 100% DIY guy, and this project will be no different. I just want to be able to keep up with my 8 tap through-wall keezer without having to lug my old 3-tier natural gas setup through my clean basement.

That makes this project much easier, and dramatically less expensive. The wiring diagram on the BCS unit covers all of what you wanted to do, just needs some tweaks.

Both EBrewSupply and AuberIns will put together a kit for you if you call them up and let them know what you're trying to do. Could save you some headache if you didn't mind the price.

 

[Silentdrinker]

You’ll have to build it or have it built. Ryan at Ebrewsupply will custom build whatever you want. But it’s cheaper to build it.

I sourced every piece of mine via eBay china express. I way over built mine, but outsourcing everything made it dirt cheap. I decided to overbuild vs under. It just took a lot more time. I also built my stand and made my own brackets. So I saved a crap ton.

Its a BCS 50a for two element + RIMs and two pumps. I also wired it to possibly control my keezer and ferm chamber.

It’s a 20g set up for 10-15g batches. I have another 20g blichmann that I’m going to use instead of the 15g for the HLT. I just need to get the element for it. I use two therminator plate chillers and O2 aeration.





With 240v 50a you can run a max of 12,000 watts. However, with the BCS you can set duty cycle your elements. Once the boil is reached, I only need 60-70% power to maintain a good boil.

I ended up installing a digital power meter that shows me what is being consumed real time. So I can monitor the amps, KWh, voltage and wattage.

It’s still a work in progress. I bought the parts to build a tippy dump for the mash tun. I built an electric water filler from some parts I scrapped out of a dishwasher. So the BCS can control the fill water. I can wake up and start the process of filling and heating before I’m even out of bed. Plus it can automatically fill the HLT for the sparge after I mash in. I plan to automate the hop additions once I get the parts. And I’m toying with the idea of building a motorized mash rake and having my grain mill attached to the stand so it’ll crush as it doughs in.

It’s fun stuff.

 

[augiedoggy]

After a long (a little too long) hiatus from HBT to finish my entire basement I am back, and have caught the electric brew indoors bug. I've searched high and low and cannot find exactly what I am looking for so I figured I would put this out there.


Here are my goals:

-I will likely do 10-15 gallon batches, potentially back to back with the aid of a NG stove top 15 feet from the brew stand.

-50 Amp service to my (currently) unfinished brew room. It is only about a 15' run to my panel that already has a 50 A GFCI ready to go from the hot tub I'm about to get rid of.

-I would like to run a 5500 W element in both the BK and the HLT, although not at the same time.

-I would like to be able to run a 5500 W element @ 120 V inside of the RIMS tube while the HLT or BK elements are firing. This would allow me to hit strike/boil temps faster.


I have not been able to locate any builds that have achieved this over the past couple days of searching.

I have decided upon RIMS because I want to have more responsive control over mash temps. Any advice you can give me is much appreciated.

If your doing back to back brewing you normally DO want to run both the HLT and BK at the same time... Otherwise you dont need the 50a... I only have 30a and run a 4500w HLT at the samer time as my 240v 1800w rims... the BK uses a 5500w element I dont run at the same time. (but I easily could with 50A) using the 5500w rims at 120v will actually use up more amps than just going with a 1500w 240v element ... You may want to look into using an ULWD cartridge heater for more options on this.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is my old 30A 3 element /3 pump controller. (disregard the old fermenter chiller control panel to the left) .. It cost under $300 to build. For about $50 more you could build a 50a system where all 3 elements could support 25a... I used a 3 way selector switch to prevent firing the 2 big elements at once on this one due to being limited to 30A. you cant see the bottom but I used aviation style connectors which required soldering but worked great.. originally I used speakon connectors for the elements but these didnt work well when I went from 4500w to a 5500w element. I replaced the element plugs with these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-Water...167866?hash=item28024b18fa:g:rYkAAOSwMmBVjBgj which work excellent.. They dont even get warm.

you goals are similiar to the system I built which has been constantly evolving.. if your open to DIY take a look at my build thread below in my signature.

 

[jEld]

It’s still a work in progress. I bought the parts to build a tippy dump for the mash tun. I built an electric water filler from some parts I scrapped out of a dishwasher. So the BCS can control the fill water. I can wake up and start the process of filling and heating before I’m even out of bed. Plus it can automatically fill the HLT for the sparge after I mash in. I plan to automate the hop additions once I get the parts. And I’m toying with the idea of building a motorized mash rake and having my grain mill attached to the stand so it’ll crush as it doughs in.

It’s fun stuff.

Wow, that looks great. I really wasn't thinking about BCS at all because I thought it looked a little too hands off for me. However, the ability to have that much control over the entire process is very appealing. Luckily I'm not making this decision quickly and will likely obsess over this for months while I siphon off the extra funds to pull off this entire build!

 

[lschiavo]

Since your panel is so close, it may be easy to add another 30A feed for a boil/pump panel. That's how my system is. 11000W HLT. The recovery is so fast, back to back batches are no problem.

 

[jEld]

This is my old 30A 3 element /3 pump controller. (disregard the old fermenter chiller control panel to the left) .. It cost under $300 to build. For about $50 more you could build a 50a system where all 3 elements could support 25a... I used a 3 way selector switch to prevent firing the 2 big elements at once on this one due to being limited to 30A. you cant see the bottom but I used aviation style connectors which required soldering but worked great.. originally I used speakon connectors for the elements but these didnt work well when I went from 4500w to a 5500w element. I replaced the element plugs with these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-Water...167866?hash=item28024b18fa:g:rYkAAOSwMmBVjBgj which work excellent.. They dont even get warm.

you goals are similiar to the system I built which has been constantly evolving.. if your open to DIY take a look at my build thread below in my signature.

Thanks Augie, funny thing is I read that entire thread the other night after a couple pints and I'm not sure how I forgot about it . I think I wrote it off because it was a 30 A setup. At this point I am definitely going with 50 A in an effort to future proof my setup. I'm gonna read through your thread again!

 

[jEld]

Since your panel is so close, it may be easy to add another 30A feed for a boil/pump panel. That's how my system is. 11000W HLT. The recovery is so fast, back to back batches are no problem.

I could potentially add another 30 A line if I convert the upstairs range to NG, in fact I already have some 10-3 fed into my brew room. So many decisions to be made! My problem is that I don't want to make panel decisions that would require me to rebuild the entire thing. I never see myself (unless I ever go pro and bring the system with me) doing a batch bigger than 15 gallons. Back to back batches would be nice, but two 5500 W elements at once might be difficult without BCS or that extra feed.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I could potentially add another 30 A line if I convert the upstairs range to NG, in fact I already have some 10-3 fed into my brew room. So many decisions to be made! My problem is that I don't want to make panel decisions that would require me to rebuild the entire thing. I never see myself (unless I ever go pro and bring the system with me) doing a batch bigger than 15 gallons. Back to back batches would be nice, but two 5500 W elements at once might be difficult without BCS or that extra feed.

2x 5500W is just 45amps, you've got enough room to run the pumps too.

The biggest difference is the size of wiring when you're putting together the panel. If you only bring 30a in then you get to use nice thin gauge wiring which is easier to work with. From a controls standpoint a 3 element 500w/120v(12a) system has the same complexity as a 3 element 5500w/240v(70a).

 

[lschiavo]

I could potentially add another 30 A line if I convert the upstairs range to NG, in fact I already have some 10-3 fed into my brew room. So many decisions to be made! My problem is that I don't want to make panel decisions that would require me to rebuild the entire thing. I never see myself (unless I ever go pro and bring the system with me) doing a batch bigger than 15 gallons. Back to back batches would be nice, but two 5500 W elements at once might be difficult without BCS or that extra feed.

As mentioned, you can run two elements with 50A and maybe bring in a 120V line dedicated to pumps etc. If you want. If you are out of breaker space in your panel, you can get a few tandem breakers to make room for another 30A.

A souped up HLT is awesome imo. Mine heats strike water for a 10G batch faster than I can get ready for mash in.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

With 240v 50a you can run a max of 12,000 watts. However, with the BCS you can set duty cycle your elements. Once the boil is reached, I only need 60-70% power to maintain a good boil.

I ended up installing a digital power meter that shows me what is being consumed real time. So I can monitor the amps, KWh, voltage and wattage.

Be REALLY careful if you go this route; duty cycle doesn't run your element at 60-70% power - it turns your element on at full power for 60-70% of the time. That means when it's actually on, it's pulling the full rated current for your element. You average a lower power over time, but the instantaneous current can trip your breaker if you have everything turn on at the same instant. Depends a lot on your duty cycle time and the trip curve of your breaker.

Monitoring the current is essential to make this work, but I personally would design the rig to prevent any possible overcurrent condition during normal operation. I don't like the idea of relying on that breaker to protect the system; it should be only for something going wrong - not normal operation.

 

[jEld]

As mentioned, you can run two elements with 50A and maybe bring in a 120V line dedicated to pumps etc. If you want. If you are out of breaker space in your panel, you can get a few tandem breakers to make room for another 30A.

A souped up HLT is awesome imo. Mine heats strike water for a 10G batch faster than I can get ready for mash in.

In the billion threads I've read through I thought about the possibility of switching my RIMS to 240 V (120 V during mash recirc) and running RIMS/HLT elements simultaneously to give me essentially that 11000 W HLT and saving me some time. I'm hesitant to have two control panels for aesthetics/convenience, but I might be able to pull this off if I run my pumps separately. You guys are really getting me spinning in circles!

 

[lschiavo]

In the billion threads I've read through I thought about the possibility of switching my RIMS to 240 V (120 V during mash recirc) and running RIMS/HLT elements simultaneously to give me essentially that 11000 W HLT and saving me some time. I'm hesitant to have two control panels for aesthetics/convenience, but I might be able to pull this off if I run my pumps separately. You guys are really getting me spinning in circles!

You can certainly do it in one panel. Mine just ended up with two because I started with the HLT panel (still boiling with propane) and didn't have room in the panel when it came time to upgrade the BK to electric. A good lesson to start with a plenty big enclosure...

 

[mredge73]

In the billion threads I've read through I thought about the possibility of switching my RIMS to 240 V (120 V during mash recirc) and running RIMS/HLT elements simultaneously to give me essentially that 11000 W HLT and saving me some time. I'm hesitant to have two control panels for aesthetics/convenience, but I might be able to pull this off if I run my pumps separately. You guys are really getting me spinning in circles!

You should be fine doing this, even while running pumps.
A 120v chugger pump will pull 2A FLA if you really load it up; if you get the 230v version it should never pull any more than 1A. I would leave the Rims at 240v if you have a tube big enough for an element this size, just cut the max duty cycle down to 20-30% during the mash to keep it from scorching.
If you go the BCS route this will be simpler as you don't have to think about it or reprogram PIDs when switching from mash to HLT mode on the RIMS. Once you get it programmed right, it is pretty hands off.

 

[Silentdrinker]

Wow, that looks great. I really wasn't thinking about BCS at all because I thought it looked a little too hands off for me. However, the ability to have that much control over the entire process is very appealing. Luckily I'm not making this decision quickly and will likely obsess over this for months while I siphon off the extra funds to pull off this entire build!

The BCS is what you want it to be. The BCS462 is like having 8 pids. If all you want is PID control, that's all you need to use. Don't use automation. But regardless you gain more features like the ability to monitor your temps on your phone. Or you can start a brew session while at work so it's time to mash in once you're home. Plus you can have it run your ferm chamber and have the option, if power goes out, to auto start once power is restored. And you can set up email alerts if your temps are low or high...etc.

Be REALLY careful if you go this route; duty cycle doesn't run your element at 60-70% power - it turns your element on at full power for 60-70% of the time. That means when it's actually on, it's pulling the full rated current for your element. You average a lower power over time, but the instantaneous current can trip your breaker if you have everything turn on at the same instant. Depends a lot on your duty cycle time and the trip curve of your breaker.

Monitoring the current is essential to make this work, but I personally would design the rig to prevent any possible overcurrent condition during normal operation. I don't like the idea of relying on that breaker to protect the system; it should be only for something going wrong - not normal operation.

This is true. But you can add ladder logic to avoid both firing at the same time.

I installed a digital power meter because I agree it's important to know what's going on. I can set up an alarm to warn me if I'm running too much power. Plus it's nice knowing the KWh to determine the cost of electricity during the session.

 

[augiedoggy]

Be REALLY careful if you go this route; duty cycle doesn't run your element at 60-70% power - it turns your element on at full power for 60-70% of the time. That means when it's actually on, it's pulling the full rated current for your element. You average a lower power over time, but the instantaneous current can trip your breaker if you have everything turn on at the same instant. Depends a lot on your duty cycle time and the trip curve of your breaker.

Monitoring the current is essential to make this work, but I personally would design the rig to prevent any possible overcurrent condition during normal operation. I don't like the idea of relying on that breaker to protect the system; it should be only for something going wrong - not normal operation.

While im not disagreeing with you my understanding of how a breaker works was a bit different...whereas its more of a sustained load over the rated amount that will trip them once things heat up?

I use the 4 in one monitor /meter to see whats going on and what kind of sustained loads there are..

 

[augiedoggy]

In the billion threads I've read through I thought about the possibility of switching my RIMS to 240 V (120 V during mash recirc) and running RIMS/HLT elements simultaneously to give me essentially that 11000 W HLT and saving me some time. I'm hesitant to have two control panels for aesthetics/convenience, but I might be able to pull this off if I run my pumps separately. You guys are really getting me spinning in circles!

Why is it exactly that you want 4500-5500 watts in your rims if you already have a dedicated HLT with its own element? You certainly dont need that much for mashing? To possibly save 10-15 mins on heating up your strike water?

If your looking at a BCS may I suggest a system that has even more possible uses at a lower cost with more flexibility? It was developed by Brundog, who used to use BCS before developing this software to replace it in his own automated brewery.

This is what I replaced both old panels with, a $12 arduino powered Brucontrol system that uses a regular pc as the front end... you can use whatever temp probes you want and the inputs and outputs are practically unlimited with multiple arduinos.. you can even write simple scripts to automate whatever you want. for example I have custom ramping scripts setuup for my different fermenters and for different yeast profiles... it will automatically hold , drop or increase the temps and coldcrash on whatever time schedule I want. the software from brucontrol.com is the most expensive single component but still cheaper than 3 pids... (and theres no limit to how many "software" pids I use it for ...

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

While im not disagreeing with you my understanding of how a breaker works was a bit different...whereas its more of a sustained load over the rated amount that will trip them once things heat up?

I use the 4 in one monitor /meter to see whats going on and what kind of sustained loads there are..

I’m not an electrical expert by any means but I think you are correct and essentially saying the same thing I was: a breaker trips by a sustained current over a certain period of time; that’s the trip curve I mentioned. Here's a good explanation (some advertising in it, but informative anyway):

When your heating element is on, it will pull the full current it is sized for (V=IR regardless of duty cycle). You may be able to have a duty cycle short enough to avoid tripping your breaker but I sure wouldn’t want to run like that! You’d could be periodically pulling more amps than the wires and components are rated for.

I have one of those current/voltage/power meters too - it was your build thread where I first saw it!

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

If your looking at a BCS may I suggest a system that has even more possible uses at a lower cost with more flexibility? It was developed by Brundog, who used to use BCS before developing this software to replace it in his own automated brewery.

This is what I replaced both old panels with, a $12 arduino powered Brucontrol system that uses a regular pc as the front end... you can use whatever temp probes you want and the inputs and outputs are practically unlimited with multiple arduinos.. you can even write simple scripts to automate whatever you want. for example I have custom ramping scripts setuup for my different fermenters and for different yeast profiles... it will automatically hold , drop or increase the temps and coldcrash on whatever time schedule I want. the software from brucontrol.com is the most expensive single component but still cheaper than 3 pids... (and theres no limit to how many "software" pids I use it for ...

I’ll second this!

I’m currently redesigning my system from BCS to BruControl + Arduino. The I/O is way too limiting on the BCS and the price tag for it is around $300. BruControl + an Arduino Mega will be around $150 (when you add in the thermistor board) and you get way more options and features!