Heady Topper

[theveganbrewer]

Haha... mayhaps. Our own self-fulfilling prophecies are known to alter reality.

and the 5 other people who did the test? I am not a professional beer judge, so the way I describe aromas may not be by the traditional definition of them. For example, my pine may be totally off, and dank is an aroma that means different things to different people. All I can say for sure is the recipes given are too fruity and don't have enough dank pine. I know what that means to me, but it might not really be pine, or dank, other people might call is something else, like earthiness or spice.

The clones that everyone has done I think have all come out plenty fruity, tropical, etc. They are lacking in that piney, dank, resinous flavor.

 

[bobbrews]

Too fruity, in my experience, is when homebrewers forget the importance of early and middle additions, and simply pound everything out at flameout and dryhop. I used to be one of those brewers. And that method yields fruity hop juice with little complexity. It has less to do with the hop choice and more to do with the hop schedule/amounts.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Too fruity, in my experience, is when homebrewers forget the importance of early and middle additions, and simply pound everything at flameout and dryhop. I used to be one of those brewers. And that method yields fruity hop juice with little complexity. It has less to do with the hop choice and more to do with the hop schedule/amounts.

You keep going on about middle additions when we know Kimmich doesn't do them. I don't need a lesson on hop additions, thanks.

 

[bobbrews]

I don't understand why you're getting mad. Totally non-combative here and I respect you as a brewer. Your dedication and advice in this thread has been invaluable.

We don't all know that Kimmich does zero middle additions. But if you say so.

That still doesn't mean he neglects early additions. You may be bittering early with only 35 IBUs, whereas he may be tripling that.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I don't understand why you're getting mad. Totally non-combative here and I respect you as a brewer. Your dedication and advice in this thread has been invaluable.

We don't all know that Kimmich does zero middle additions. But if you say so.

That still doesn't mean he neglects early additions. You may be bittering early with only 35 IBUs, whereas he may be tripling that.

I know how much he bitters with hop extract and when he does his additions.

 

[bobbrews]

Yet you don't know how much he uses and you're still having major issues cloning it. We don't know it all... the head brewer and his cronies do.

Time to think outside the box.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Yet you don't know how much he uses and you're still having major issues cloning it. We don't know it all... the head brewer and his cronies do.

Time to think outside the box.

I do know how much he bitters with and when the hops go in. That's why the discussion for the past month as been on hop variety and dry hop.

 

[bobbrews]

I do know how much he bitters with and when the hops go in. That's why the discussion for the past month as been on hop variety and dry hop.

Wouldn't it make sense that if you don't know this information, and all of your clone attempts are turning out too fruity/juicy, that the head brewer is bittering with more hops and using a different array of hops than you're selecting. You also hate Amarillo yet don't deny that the real HT uses a decent amount of it.

 

[eandersen]

How'd you get that info? Not trying to fuel this fight or anything just asking..

 

[bobbrews]

It's not a fight. Trying to be helpful here with my brewing experience. But vegan is the supposed expert on this beer since he brewed what he thinks to be a clone two times and still has major concerns. Hoping to answer some of his concerns that still remain.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Wouldn't it make sense that if you don't know this information, and all of your clone attempts are turning out too fruity/juicy, that the head brewer is bittering with more hops and using a different array of hops than you're selecting. You also hate Amarillo yet don't deny that the real HT uses a decent amount of it.

No one here has said they know what hops are used. That's where we are at in the clone build right now. There have been like 5 attempts to clone this by different people, most have only tried once, I've only done it twice. Not like we're striking out 100 times here.

I'm wondering how much you have followed the thread, what info do you know about the recipe so far? I feel we're going back and forth over things we've already come to a conclusion on in earlier posts.

 

[bobbrews]

Okay buddy, you're getting combatitive, so time to expire. Good luck. And I won't offer you anything else on the topic ever again since I know where that leads.

 

[theveganbrewer]

How'd you get that info? Not trying to fuel this fight or anything just asking..

from the head brewer

 

[theveganbrewer]

Okay buddy, you're getting combatitive, so time to expire. Good luck. And I won't offer you anything else on the topic ever again since I know where that leads.

Maybe you misread my post. I assumed you have been following this thread, so you saw the posts before where we knocked out some of the details of the recipe.

 

[bobbrews]

No, I haven't read the past 90 pages in the past week and been fully refreshed on each and every single post. I have read the parts that matter though and have been commenting since early on. Still, I don't take everything someone says about this beer, or have heard about this beer, at face value and believe it wholeheartedly. That would be quite naive.

 

[theveganbrewer]

No, I haven't read the past 90 pages in the past week and been fully refreshed on each and every single post. I have read the parts that matter though and have been commenting early on. Still, I don't take everything someone says about this beer, or have heard about this beer, at face value and believe it wholeheartedly. That would be quite naive.

Well, I thought we had also talked about some of the details of the recipe over PM, so that's why I have been confused by some of your input in the last hour. I understand the need to think outside of the box, but I don't think the recipe is that far off. It was stated a while back that this recipe is based off of discussions with the head brewer and that there was a possibility he was purposefully misleading us.

 

[bobbrews]

I understand the need to think outside of the box, but I don't think the recipe is that far off. It was stated a while back that this recipe is based off of discussions with the head brewer and that there was a possibility he was purposefully misleading us.

"Far off" is relative.

You may have 75% of it, but that doesn't mean you have a clone. That's more like a fraternal twin.

It's the remaining 25% that's unbeknownst to you, and irritating you beyond measure. Yet you are unwilling to hear any constructive criticism of how doing things a bit differently may yield better results.

 

[libeerty]

Easy, guys. It's not really fair to declare the pine vs. fruit debate over, nor is it fair to challenge whether it's okay for someone to dislike a particular hop. This is a thread on a forum for ppl to discuss clone attempts. No one has any more right than anyone else to be here. Some think piney. Some think fruitier. Some know amarillo might be in it but choice not to use it anyways, etc.

 

[theveganbrewer]

"Far off" is relative.

You may have 75% of it, but that doesn't mean you have a clone. That's more like a fraternal twin.

It's the remaining 25% that's unbeknownst of you, and irritating you beyond measure. Yet you are unwilling to hear any constructive criticism of how doing things a bit differently may yield better results.

I am all ears man. I am working within the framework given by the head brewer.

 

[bobbrews]

I am all ears man. I am working within the framework given by the head brewer.

I have been contributing, but you haven't been all ears. You've been combatative.

Even with evidence that there was a possibility the head brewer was purposefully misleading the public. Yet you fall back on what you heard from him and are still dissatisfied with the outcome. Let me ask, was this direct candid information from his mouth to your ear? Or third party speculation?

 

[theveganbrewer]

I have been contributing, but you haven't been all ears. You've been combatative.

Even with evidence that there was a possibility the head brewer was purposefully misleading the public. Yet you fall back on what you heard from him. Let me ask, was this direct candid information from his mouth to your ear? Or third party speculation?

I'm not sure there is any evidence of misleading the public, I merely presented my information back some 20-25 pages ago with the disclaimer that it was a possibility that he was misleading us, even thought I didn't suspect it and still don't. This was direct information.

 

[bobbrews]

I merely presented my information back some 20-25 pages ago with the disclaimer that it was a possibility that he was misleading us, even thought I didn't suspect it and still don't. This was direct information.

Hmm... so you traveled from Oregon to VT, became good aquaintances with the head brewer, had a long in depth conversation about HT, learned all about his system and processes, and yet you still have major issues coming close to the flavor profile of this beer and don't want to listen to anyone's advice about how to maybe do things a bit differently to achieve the results you desire?

*Scratches head*

Time to leave. Good luck boys.

 

[Pappers_]

Interesting conversation. In these sorts of discussions, its sometimes helpful to keep things impersonal - don't refer to the other poster, just to the points being raised. Especially if you find yourself going back and forth with someone in particular and it starts to feel too contentious. And, as mentioned above, sometimes its best just to step away from the computer for the night. No one ever wins an argument on the internet.

I've got to find some of this Heady Topper to try.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Hmm... so you traveled from Oregon to VT, became good aquaintances with the head brewer, had a long in depth conversation about HT, learned all about his system and processes, and yet you still have major issues coming close to the flavor profile of this beer and don't want to listen to anyone's advice about how to maybe do things a bit differently to achieve the results you desire?

*Scratches head*

Time to leave. Good luck boys.

No, he read the same interviews, blogs and articles that I and many others did. Many of which contained information straight from Kimmich's mouth to the interviewer, and one that was written by Kimmich himself. I don't know where you're getting your information, though I have my suspicions, but those of us actually brewing this beer have gotten ours from researching this beer, brewery, other breweries that have been associated with Kimmich. Vegan's info is spot on, and probably second only to that one could glean from having a few beers with Kimmich himself.

Really, I'm biting my tongue quite a bit because I've come to see a pattern in your posting on this and other threads, but I do need to say that in this thread in particular, you may be a bit out of your league. This isn't just something you can cut and paste standard advice in hopes that it helps. We've all done our homework on this beer and are in the process of dialing in a clone recipe (by BREWING). If you've ever done a clone, you know that it takes many attempts to dial in the recipe to exactly replicate the beer in question. It's not just a matter of wham bam there's your clone man.

 

[passedpawn]

Stop the bickering.

You can make a point on an internet forum, but others don't have to take your advice. That's the deal. Restating it repeatedly is pointless.

Good thread, but if I have to start snipping I will cut deep to get rid of the bickering and some useful information will be lost. So please, let's be civil and respectful of other's opinions.

[edit] I've got to find me some of this HT.

 

[TNGabe]

You keep saying you're bowing out and then posting again. I don't have a dog in the fight, but maybe it's time to take a step back for the good of the thread.

Like I said. Have fun.

There's really no such thing as cloning a beer anyway. But by all means, continue to rack your brains. At best, you'll get something similar. However, it seems that vegan hit a solid brick wall in regard to limiting the fruity/juicyness that's coming out in his attempts despite being the resident pro on HT. Let's be honest - You know fairly little about this beer other than the ingredients, and it would appear that to gain more accuracy, your processes need some work. I thought that I would recommend upping the earlier additions to combat the overwhelming fruitiness, but like most homebrewers, they think they know everything because of what's regurgitated over and over in these threads that is simply not true - (i.e. 30 minute additions are useless, if you use big bittering additions you'll never have a smooth beer, every addition before 20 minutes offers no flavor or aroma, or that there are specific and measurable points in a hop schedule that are even designated toward bitterness/flavor/aroma, which is completely preposterous). If you want to start calling out patterns... then mimicking what others say and taking it at face value certainly a huge one on these forums! But continue to be "hard-headed" and I'll continue to be "in-over-my-head" and yet brew IPAs better than the both of you because I don't limit myself.

 

[DangerRoss]

Let's take the time to refocus on the real goal here people. We don't need to argue. We NEED to clone!

kaz4121 compiled and linked the sources for what we collectively know about this beer.

Between the HBT and BA threads I’ve summed up all the pertinent information regarding a Heady Topper clone. Keep in mind much of this information is heresay, but I tried to credit the member and link to the page which contains the claim. If I am missing something please let me know, as I think this post has been veered off topic a bit lately.

Anything italicized is linked directly to John Kimmich, his workers, or The Alchemist Brewery in general.

Beer Specs:
Style: American Double India Pale Ale (The Alchemist Brewery website)
OG: ~1.070 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
FG: ~1.010 (bobbrews and skivtjerry)
ABV: 8% (The Alchemist Brewery website)
IBU: 120 (The Alchemist Brewery website), 80-90 Rager (bobbrews), 75-80 lab tested (theveganbrewer)
SRM: 4-7 (theveganbrewer, koopa, and Airborneguy)

Malt:
Base: Thomas Fawcett Pearl (bobbrews and nathanjohnson)
Specialty: NO Crystal (theveganbrewer, mmonacel, and sweetcell)
Adjunct: ~5% or less sugar (orthellomcbane and skivtjerry)
*Other possibilities may include: Wheat, Munich, Carapils*

If similar malt bill to El Jefe, could contain Pearl, Caramalt, Carafa Special III (ChrisNH)

Hops:
6 varieties used (theveganbrewer, bobbrews, and Petekiteworld)
Known: Simcoe (bobbrews)
Likely: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Cascade, Amarillo, Summit, Nugget
Possible: Riwaka, Moteuka, Ahtanum, Galaxy, Zythos, Apollo
Not used: Citra (bobbrews and theveganbrewer)

Yeast:
Conan Yeast (private strain) (MSNBC article and theveganbrewer)
Yeast culturing: here and here
*Most of aroma comes from yeast (theveganbrewer)*
*Could be ale yeast (theveganbrewer), lager yeast (TapeDeck), belgian yeast (Signpost Brewing and the Mad Fermentationist, or blend (terrapinj)*

Process:
Mash Temperature: < 150F (bobbrews and orthellomcbane) probably a step mash (bobbrews)
Boil: NO FWH (theveganbrewer)
CO2 hop extract for bittering (theveganbrewer, BeerCrafter2011, and mmonacel)
All "actual" hops added at 5 minutes or less (theveganbrewer)
Post-boil: Big whirlpool (theveganbrewer)
Fermentation temperature: 58F at brewery (Skelator), 68F on sign (theveganbrewer), 60-64F from experience (Knecht_Rupprecht, SkinnyPete, NordeastBrewer77, and orthellomcbane)
Yeast Attenuation: ~82% (bobbrews, orthellomcbane, Skelator)
Dry-hopping: Double or triple dry-hopped for only several days each (mmonacel)
Hopback: Used prior to packaging (Petekiteworld)
*It is not can-conditioned (LaFinDuMonde)*

Entire length from kettle to can: 2-3 weeks (theveganbrewer)

Similar Beers (to help with recipe formulation?): Lagunitas Hop Stoopid, Ithica Flower Power, Surley Abrasive, Kern River Citra DIPA

 

[Coff]

This is brutal to follow.

 

[Coff]

I am starting to wonder if we need a new thread here, just a bit of a reboot with all of the important information in the OP. Most specifically Kaz's roundup post that was just quoted.

I think I am going to go for attempt 2 on Saturday, just deciding this now. I also will be distributing some Conan slurry to folks in my club so I will have a few versions to compare side by side in due time.

 

[FermentNEthinG]

Let's take the time to refocus on the real goal here people. We don't need to argue. We NEED to clone!

kaz4121 compiled and linked the sources for what we collectively know about this beer.

Damn, I have been pawing through this thread trying to find that post again...Thanks!

This thread may need closure and a redirect to the recipes/ingredients.

New Title:

Can you clone it? ..::Headie Topper::.. Information and Discussion.

imho ofcourse

 

[FermentNEthinG]

Coff beat me to it, my bad!

 

[FATC1TY]

I agree. There where I was going back a couple pages.

A recap of recipes used, schedules and mash..

I'm wanting to pinpoint if people are getting the peachy orange flavor and aroma from Amarillo, or the Conan yeast.. I'm suspecting amarillo in there.

Simcoe, Chinook, Cascade, Amarillo, Columbus , Centennial... Those are the 6 hops I believe are being used.

Simcoe/Chinook/Columbus will all get a layered level of pine. Chinook, Simcoe will get the danky-ness to it. Centennial also gives a wee bit, but less than others. Amarillo also gives a dirty sock earthyness as well.

All will toss out citrus fruit notes used at certain times.

I'm just wanting to get a clean slate of whats been done and what is close and not close. I should have some Conan coming shortly and will certainly be firing up the kettle.

 

[Xpertskir]

Sometime next week Im going with

5.5 gallon batch

12.5 lbs pearl
1 lb corn sugar
12 oz golden oats

mash 149


bitter with warrior to 60ish

nugget, amarillo, simcoe, centennial, Columbus, Cascade

moderate addition at 15

large at 5

larger for 30 minute whirlpool starting at 185

conan 58 for the first few days, moving up to mid 60's to finish ferm.


I just fermented an American wheat and even at 58 conan is a beast.

 

[dbennett78]

Just made a batch of IPA (not a complete clone attempt) to use my harvested Conan yeast last Thursday. The Conan is definitely a beast and I think it is almost fermented out already after 5 days at 62. Going to do a gravity sample this weekend to check and then dry hop. It smells very good from what I can tell.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Ok, so now that that's settled... I'll be racking my clone into the keg for the second dry hopping this afternoon. ~3 ozs; simcoe, centennial and columbus. With any luck, I'll be sipping on something similar to HT next week sometime.

 

[TNGabe]

Ok, so now that that's settled... I'll be racking my clone into the keg for the second dry hopping this afternoon. ~3 ozs; simcoe, centennial and columbus. With any luck, I'll be sipping on something similar to HT next week sometime.

Don't lie. If it's close to Heady and you have 5 gallons on tap, you'll be chugging not sipping!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Don't lie. If it's close to Heady and you have 5 gallons on tap, you'll be chugging not sipping!

I already know that the keg is gonna kick within a week of tapping.

 

[chutracheese]

Fatc1ty and Initybrew

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

This is where I got my hop extract and made my own hopshots.
Just in case you are interested or it helps.

 

[Xpertskir]

Fatc1ty and Initybrew

http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

This is where I got my hop extract and made my own hopshots.
Just in case you are interested or it helps.

interesting. Where/what syringes did you buy?

Maybe I can get my GF to bring them home from work.

 

[Coff]

For those who cannot get hop extract, or dont want to hunt it down, I used Magnum on my clone and I found that to be "sufficient" as a clean bittering hop. Love Magnum actually, use it to bitter 90% of my beers so I might be biased.

I did however have the same issue Vegan had wrt to the "clone" being too fruity (mine is a grapefruit bomb) with not enough pine/dank. I am going to give this another shot on Saturday night at a small scale since this is one expensive batch of hops. I plan to dial back the Amarillo a little bit and replace it with more Simcoe and ommit the Nugget and go with Chinook instead. I'll post my updated recipe later today or tomorrow.