just got a sack of pearl, now I just need to go to VT and get some Heady for comparison and harvesting.
Heady Topper
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theveganbrewer
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White Labs does not have this yeast for sale, nor does Wyeast. It was made by Greg Noonan who Kimmich brewed under. It's been floating around a few breweries in Vermont and is used by the Alchemist and Vermont Pub and Brewery to this day.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
I've always wondered what the code of conduct is in a situation. What's to stop them from harvesting the strain and marketing it under a different name? They have a few strains that are listed as "from a well known brewery" etc
brewerelated
Well-Known Member
I was wondering if anybody would be willing to ship me some Conan Yeast. I am in California and its rather difficult to get a hold of Heady Topper out here. I am willing to pay for the shipping or trade yeast. Please PM me, I would be grateful.
Those who have found/used Pearl for their clones, was it Fawcett? So far I can't locate Pearl anywhere except Midwest, and they have Fawcett.
FermentNEthinG
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Muntons makes a pale malt they call "pearl blend"
Coff
Well-Known Member
Earlier in the thread when I posted the results from "a microbiologist" I didnt know if he wanted me throwing his name out there but it doesnt seem like it would be a big deal. It was Al Buck from East Coast Yeast, he told me that so long as you dont call it "Conan" or "The Alchemists' Proprietary Strain" youre all good.
I wasn't suggesting that Fawcett was bad in any way. I think Fawcett uses a floor malting process on their Pearl, which would give it a different character than other maltsters who do not. I was just looking for data points on what has actually been used in clones here.
If anything it's better. It's simply more hands on and allows the maltster to gauge the quality of the grain by look and feel. The net result in floor malting is that malt modification is typically lower and is more uniform.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
So when are they going to start selling it? I really wish we could get some lab to do it so it'd be available for everyone. It's a great unique yeast. I did talk to White Labs and they said they can't sell it unless the brewer gives permission.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
So where's a pretty good starting point for this clone. I'm gonna start working on it hard. My Conan is en route.
Anyone have a recipe they think grain and hops wise is close. But the schedule is off ?
Anyone have a recipe they think grain and hops wise is close. But the schedule is off ?
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Add some oats or wheat to my last recipe and then make the hops more piney. That should be the ballpark. This is sort of where I'm at now:
1.071
120IBUs
Pearl Malt
Munich or Vienna ( I have been using Munich and like it, will try Vienna is same quantity just to see difference)
Carapils (I have tried with or without, don't see much difference at all)
Oats or Wheat or both (To make it a little smoother)
Corn Sugar (To help dry it out)
Hops- 70 IBUs for bittering (I used 7mL of hopshot @60 minutes)
5 minute additions of Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook/Centennial/Cascade/Nugget
Whirlpool Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook/Centennial/Cascade/Nugget (2:1:1:0.5:0.5:0.5)
x2 Dryhop with Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook (3:1.5:0.5)
1.071
120IBUs
Pearl Malt
Munich or Vienna ( I have been using Munich and like it, will try Vienna is same quantity just to see difference)
Carapils (I have tried with or without, don't see much difference at all)
Oats or Wheat or both (To make it a little smoother)
Corn Sugar (To help dry it out)
Hops- 70 IBUs for bittering (I used 7mL of hopshot @60 minutes)
5 minute additions of Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook/Centennial/Cascade/Nugget
Whirlpool Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook/Centennial/Cascade/Nugget (2:1:1:0.5:0.5:0.5)
x2 Dryhop with Simcoe/Columbus/Chinook (3:1.5:0.5)
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure I've got the piney part down without making it too dank.. I have a DIPA on tap now that my buddy instantly said.. 'Holy crap that is dank as hell'
Exactly what I was going for... I'm just not positive on the grist.
I personally think Wheat is what is needed. I have a clone of a oddsides Citra Pale, and it's got wheat in it, and it's seriously THE addition that changes the beer from good to great. Also aids in that murky haze that Heady has probably.
I've used 4-7% white or red wheat malt in PLENTY of my IIPAs... None have been cloudy/murky. Unmalted wheat makes things cloudy, but no one uses that in an IIPA. All of my IIPAs typically have a buttload of hops too. Still not hazy. I'm typically not cold crashing or using any clarifiers other than whirlfloc. Sometimes I rack to secondary, but not always. Because of all this, I think cloudiness has to do more with the yeast selection and yeast care than anything else. Lack of conditioning time and careless racking are also huge factors as is the cold break.
*Edited for further explanation
*Edited for further explanation
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
One thing on the haze, and hop particles. The amount of haze and particles changes drastically throughout the run of cans. The first cans are completely free of hop particles and barely have any yeast in them. As the tanks are emptied, the later cans begin to get the hop particles and yeast. The last cans off the line are seriously full of sediment and hops.
Seeing this gave me enough intel to know that they are not hitting it with any hops on the way to the can like many thought, and they are not bagging their hops either.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but the wheat will help in some cases leave some proteins behind that will give some haze to the beers.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I found an interview with kimmich where he talked about trying to change the recipe back in I think it was 2009 or 2010 because of a problem with Pearl malt that made it more murky. I don't think it's the yeast, just the malt and the lack of filtering. The hopshot also tends to bind with proteins and keep them suspended.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Good points. I figured they aren't doing ANY extra work on clearing or cleaning the beer, as they are canning it. Not to mention none of that stuff is bad for you, or even taste bad. So why strip it down when it all adds flavor.
I'm wondering if adding hops right at the drop of krausen will aid in getting MORE oils in there. Once the majority of the fermentation is done, when you allow the temp to rise to rest, adding some hops there to infuse and dry hop. Then racking off of it, to your keg or your secondary and from there, also dry hopping it.
You wouldn't be blowing off any aromas or oils, as the main means for co2 production are waning.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Speaking of hopshots....
I'm gonna try to do this without it... fair try, or should I get some extract for it?
I'm gonna try to do this without it... fair try, or should I get some extract for it?
Vegan: I'm interested in your new Grain Bill, since it's really close to the bill i'm using for my first conan brew: Pils, Vienna and oats. I thought all along that subbing pearl for the Pils would get me close to Heady.
It took me a little while to get to brewing, but on day 3 in the fermentor the smell is outrageous. It's clear that the yeast is the x factor.
Thanks for the Conan!
heady will be my next hoppy brew.
It took me a little while to get to brewing, but on day 3 in the fermentor the smell is outrageous. It's clear that the yeast is the x factor.
Thanks for the Conan!
heady will be my next hoppy brew.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
We know for sure he uses extract, so you should get it. I am not sure I believe them, but my LHBS says they don't deteriorate like regular hops, so stock up. They sell online, http://www.brewbrothers.biz/Hop-JuiceTM
vtchuck
Well-Known Member
If you go to 7 Barrel today, they have a "Conan-series" beer featured in addition to their regular line-up. Usually a big beer like double IPA or Imperial Red. The present brewer, who succeeded the late Paul White was once a master brewer for Catamount. The regular line-up of beers are Paul's recipes.
If I recall correctly, Noonan lost 7 Barrel as part of a divorce settlement.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
The sweetness is right, but the mouthfeel is a little watery and it's not a creamy as heady. Not that heady is creamy, but it is creamier than mine. My attempts have been very tropical and flowery, but I find the real thing more piney than anything else. My wort tastes too fruity. Could be a fermentation temp problem, we've all sort of jumped into the low 60s thing without examining the results. I notice a lot of us are all going for tropical, fruity, when the real thing is much, much more piney than that.
I believe this is the description that best fits Heady: The taste is thick, resinous pine and funky dank weed to start, flipping quickly into a sweet fruitiness, with lots of orange, melon, and overripe tropical fruit, but without being super fruit forward either.
I believe this is the description that best fits Heady: The taste is thick, resinous pine and funky dank weed to start, flipping quickly into a sweet fruitiness, with lots of orange, melon, and overripe tropical fruit, but without being super fruit forward either.
libeerty
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I would describe it as 2/3rd fruity, 1/3 piney, but I will be drinking a lot more of it very shortly, and I will see if my recollection is correct.
I'm not sure who thought HopJizz was a great name for a product...
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
Amarillo has to be in there, no? I get a dirty dank orange from Amarillo. I have some in my DIPA now, and it has a boat load of Chinook and Simcoe in it right now, along with Cascade which gives me that tropical subdued candy flavor in beer.
What the consensus on Amarillo in there?
InityBrew
Well-Known Member
Where did you guys go to get the hop extract?.. MoreBeer has it at $26.. way to expensive.
I am thinking of getting the HopJizz because of the price.
Has anyone messed around with it?
I am thinking of getting the HopJizz because of the price.
Has anyone messed around with it?
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
You know... The more I drink my beer, the more I'm thinking there needs to be Amarillo and Cascade in the clone. I'm thinking nugget isn't what is needed.
Stick with the C's and the Amarillo keeps is super simple.. I swear, I'm thinking it's gotta be simple.
Pearl, some Vienna and some Wheat for the grist.
Stick with the C's and the Amarillo keeps is super simple.. I swear, I'm thinking it's gotta be simple.
Pearl, some Vienna and some Wheat for the grist.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Yes, I brew with it, that's my LHBS. All my clones have used that hopjizz.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
The only reason I haven't put amarillo in there is because I hate it. I have hated every beer I've ever tried that uses amarillo. I don't know why, but I just do. The other thing is that he uses 6 hops, and Simcoe is the most prominent. It's got to have simcoe, and a lot of it. '
Not sure if I'm going to get a response, but I did email Alchemist and asked them straight up if Amarillo is in there.
Really????? Along with Simcoe and Citra, it's one of the three most used late addition hops in American IPAs. Amarillo is full of mild floral grapefruit and sweet juicy peach.
Some beers that use a decent amount of it...
Green Flash Hop Head Red
Green Flash Palate Wrecker
Ballast Point Sculpin
Founders Red's Rye
Alpine Duet
Surly Furious
Kern Just Outstanding
Bear Republic Hop Rod Rye
Brooklyner-Schneider Hopfen-Weisse
Three Floyd's Gumballhead
Ninkasi Tricerahops
Odell Myrcenary
Lagunitas SUCKS
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Hate them all :cross:
Not really, but I hate every beer I've had that is prominently Amarillo. This clone attempt without Amarillo does not lack peach or grapefruit, in fact, it has too much IMO.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I can say that I only liked Lagunitas Sucks on that list, haven't had all of them, but I think almost all. I had a bunch of 3F stuff last week and loved it all except Gumballhead. I didn't know until now it was all amarillo.
Wow, that may explain why you're searching for more dank pine in a Heady clone... because a part of you desires those flavors more as opposed to fruity citrus. No harm in that. I would prefer Pliny to be less sweet and caramelly despite only having a weak 4% C45 and finishing at 1.010/11.
theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
or because it actually tastes like that. I have done blind taste panels with other homebrewers and friends and everyone says the same thing. Heady is more piney than the clone recipes we've got here.
Haha... mayhaps. Our own self-fulfilling prophecies are known to alter reality.
For me, HT is full of citrus and fruit. The dank pine is there, but it takes a backnote. The clone recipes may taste less piney, but that doesn't mean the real beer is primarily piney.
For me, HT is full of citrus and fruit. The dank pine is there, but it takes a backnote. The clone recipes may taste less piney, but that doesn't mean the real beer is primarily piney.
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