Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[FATC1TY]

4.5 days isn't a lot but I'm also having some attenuation issues with the batch I cultured up. First brew I used it on was a 1.056 pale ale that got down to 1.012 and tasted great. Used that same yeast on a 1.073 Heady attempt and it just plain stopped at 1.020. Raised the temp, swirled the carboy, etc. and no change. Thought it was a fluke and had some yeast saved from the PA batch. Pitched that into a 1.060 IPA....again stopped at 1.020. I can't get 'em to drop any further. Mash temp on both was 150...no drama. Confused :-(

I did a 149* mash on mine. I think it's done, but I'm not motivated at this point to check it, but one can assume that it's not going to do much more. Figured it to be around 78% attenuation with no help from any sugar or anything.

Pretty put off by it so far. Not sure how old the yeast is, but if this is the case with culturing the yeast, and trying to shoot a moving target with it, then I have a feeling we will never get it really nailed down. Close, sure- it's possible. But we are all getting yeast that has managed to make it into the can, and then it's travels from there... who knows.

One thing I do know, is that they have to be crashing this stuff HARD. I know they mentioned they have the ability to do it since they expanded now, and let it sit longer, and I believe it. This yeast doesn't want to go away and stays in suspension.

 

[hopgoblin4]

Love this thread. Anyway to get some conan in central PA? I'd like to get involved here if possible. Thanks.

 

[powermd]

I've been getting my ducks in a row to do a HT clone the past few weeks.

1) Set up a fermentation temp control apparatus to give me consistent 60-62F temps.
2) Selecting hops- still a work in progress.
3) Obtained a can of HT, a flask, stirrer, etc for the Conan culture.

This may be a total noob question, but since I'm not doing AG yet, what extracts would you recommend to achieve the profile you guys are doing with the popular combo of Pearl and Munich? I'm doing a 5 gallon batch.

 

[FATC1TY]

I've been getting my ducks in a row to do a HT clone the past few weeks.

1) Set up a fermentation temp control apparatus to give me consistent 60-62F temps.
2) Selecting hops- still a work in progress.
3) Obtained a can of HT, a flask, stirrer, etc for the Conan culture.

This may be a total noob question, but since I'm not doing AG yet, what extracts would you recommend to achieve the profile you guys are doing with the popular combo of Pearl and Munich? I'm doing a 5 gallon batch.

Not sure if they make a Pearl malt extract. I'm not exactly sure what direction to take, as Pearl is pretty important in the beer. You'll still make a fantastic beer with the hops and yeast as is, with simple light DME, but it won't be close.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I've been getting my ducks in a row to do a HT clone the past few weeks.

1) Set up a fermentation temp control apparatus to give me consistent 60-62F temps.
2) Selecting hops- still a work in progress.
3) Obtained a can of HT, a flask, stirrer, etc for the Conan culture.

This may be a total noob question, but since I'm not doing AG yet, what extracts would you recommend to achieve the profile you guys are doing with the popular combo of Pearl and Munich? I'm doing a 5 gallon batch.

I would look into doing a small partial mash with a pound or so of Pearl with the steeping grains, Pearl is pretty important to the recipe. Northern Brewer makes a Maris Otter LME that would be a good choice for the extract. You'll probably also want to bump up the corn sugar/dextrose a tad to help reach the 1.010 FG. I converted the recipe to extract for a buddy and have it saved on my BeerSmith, if you're interested PM me and I can send it to you.

 

[PseudoChef]

Conan on the stir plate last night. Just going to do a simple Blonde this weekend. Maybe all Pearl - we'll see. Low-hopped, though - mainly using as yeast propagation and too assess the Conan and Pearl characteristics.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I also have some of the barbarian on the plate, but I'm doing another IPA with it. This IPA is kind of a mix of the HT and Abrasive recipes; Pearl base, Crisp caramalt, Golden Naked oats, FWH with Hop Shot, 8 oz Citra between 5 min and whirlpool. I call it Skull Sander.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

I also have some of the barbarian on the plate, but I'm doing another IPA with it. This IPA is kind of a mix of the HT and Abrasive recipes; Pearl base, Crisp caramalt, Golden Naked oats, FWH with Hop Shot, 8 oz Citra between 5 min and whirlpool. I call it Skull Sander.

Going to put in an order this week for hopshot and random hops im missing out of the freezer and i had this thought while drinking an abrasive.
Said to myself....self, i would love the punch and tropical citrus of heady (conan) with the dense creamy palate of abrasive. (naked oats)

Amazing you posted this. Ill be looking for the recipe when you come back saying youve found the next coming of g-d and it is GOOD!!!

Reminds me to, gotta get some naked oats for an abrasive clone and amber malt for aprihop clone, that i will be fermenting with conan!

As i see it now for all of the styles that i keep on hand conan should be my house strain, just bothers me to see that after a couple generations its loosing attenuation and falling apart???...Maybe make a huge starter and bank out 10-12 vials for future step-ups instead of fermenting each new batch with an older generation.

EDIT: Skull Sander has to be the best name for a clone ive ever seen! haha

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Amazing you posted this. Ill be looking for the recipe when you come back saying youve found the next coming of g-d and it is GOOD!!!

EDIT: Skull Sander has to be the best name for a clone ive ever seen! haha

If it turns out as good as I hope, I'll gladly send you the recipe.

As for the Conan degrading, I'm doing just what you mentioned and only using yeast from starters made from my Heady harvests. When I get down to one jar, I'll build it up and make 4-5 jars from that, etc., etc. I'm also hoping that my club gets it's plan for a bank together in the next month or two, while a few of us still have good Conan on hand.

 

[PseudoChef]

I plated my Conan from the original vial - hopefully it's a young generation.

 

[powermd]

I saw this post by FourSeasonAngler:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index51.html#post5003099

And agree with you that a partial mash is a good idea so I can get some Pearl in there. I like his insane hop regimen as well.

I'm on the fence about a hopshot vs using Magnum pellets. Thoughts? What do you think of this recipe in general?

I would look into doing a small partial mash with a pound or so of Pearl with the steeping grains, Pearl is pretty important to the recipe. Northern Brewer makes a Maris Otter LME that would be a good choice for the extract. You'll probably also want to bump up the corn sugar/dextrose a tad to help reach the 1.010 FG. I converted the recipe to extract for a buddy and have it saved on my BeerSmith, if you're interested PM me and I can send it to you.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I saw this post by FourSeasonAngler:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index51.html#post5003099

And agree with you that a partial mash is a good idea so I can get some Pearl in there. I like his insane hop regimen as well.

I'm on the fence about a hopshot vs using Magnum pellets. Thoughts? What do you think of this recipe in general?

I adjusted the Hop additions on brew day to the following:

60 min - 2.33oz Magnum
5 min - .33oz Amarillo, .5 oz Cascade, .33 oz Centennial Type, .5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Simcoe, .33 oz Summit
Post-boil (added at 180F, steep for 30min, cool to 65F from 172F) - .33oz Amarillo, .5 oz Cascade, 1 oz Centennial Type, .5 oz Columbus, 1 oz Simcoe, .33 oz Summit
Dry Hop - .33oz Amarillo, 1 oz Cascade, 2 oz Centennial Type, 1 oz Columbus, 2 oz Simcoe, .33 oz Summit

Pitched at 65F, fermenting at 62/63F currently and Conan is ripping away like a monster.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I saw this post by FourSeasonAngler:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index51.html#post5003099

And agree with you that a partial mash is a good idea so I can get some Pearl in there. I like his insane hop regimen as well.

I'm on the fence about a hopshot vs using Magnum pellets. Thoughts? What do you think of this recipe in general?

I think Hop Shot is the way to go, I don't think magnum at FW would give you the same character.

As for the recipe(s) on this thread, I've brewed one with ~90% Pearl, 5% carapils, 5% corn sugar with Simcoe, Amarillo, Centen, Cascade, Columbus and Chinook. It came out awesome, but is way too citrus-y and lacks the dankness of Heady. When I do my second try, I'm cutting the cascade and replacing it with nugget. I'm also swapping the carapils for Crisp caramalt. I'm still playing with the numbers, but I'll definitely post my recipe once I'm ready to brew.

 

[EyePeeA]

I have been experimenting with dryhop amounts and single and multi-stage dryhopping for several basic DIPAs made from just with 2-row, 3% Carapils, and 3% C-40. Columbus, Simcoe, and Centennial were my hops for this general experiment. Rates as low as 0.75 oz dryhops per gallon up to 1.5 oz. dryhops per gallon were used. The batches were split into 1 gallon vessels to allow one version to be dryhopped for 8 days in a single stage, another to be dryhopped for 4 days in two stages, and another to be dryhopped for 12 days in 3 stages.

After trying over a dozen different schedules & methods, I would say that the dryhop ratio for this beer is more like 1.3 to 1.4 oz. dryhops per gallon of beer in 3 separate stages, pulling out each stage every time you add a new one. So for a 5 gallon batch that is like 7 oz. dryhops (most of which is probably Columbus and Simcoe). This result yielded an aroma that was the most pleasant of the bunch for me.

Keep in mind, you lose some beer due to dryhop absorption each time you add a different stage. Therefore, it's better to start with 6 gallons in the primary so that you can bottle more like 5 gallons after the last stage of dryhopping.

 

[powermd]

I think Hop Shot is the way to go, I don't think magnum at FW would give you the same character.

As for the recipe(s) on this thread, I've brewed one with ~90% Pearl, 5% carapils, 5% corn sugar with Simcoe, Amarillo, Centen, Cascade, Columbus and Chinook. It came out awesome, but is way too citrus-y and lacks the dankness of Heady. When I do my second try, I'm cutting the cascade and replacing it with nugget. I'm also swapping the carapils for Crisp caramalt. I'm still playing with the numbers, but I'll definitely post my recipe once I'm ready to brew.

So I will go with a hopshot then (if I can get one, NB is out of stock). The question then becomes, how much to get HT like bitterness (in taste as opposed to by-the-number IBUs).

If I can't get one any thoughts on Magnum vs Nugget for bittering?

 

[theveganbrewer]

So I will go with a hopshot then. The question then becomes, how much to get HT like bitterness (in taste as opposed to by-the-number IBUs).

If you're doing 5 minute or less additions like John, you gotta get over 10ml of hopshot IMO. I did 10 and it still wasn't enough. Heady is more bitter side by side than 10ml of hopshot in 1.070.

On the other hops, I'm just going Simcoe/Columbus/Amarillo from here on out. A lot more Columbus than before I think, for dankness.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

So I will go with a hopshot then (if I can get one, NB is out of stock). The question then becomes, how much to get HT like bitterness (in taste as opposed to by-the-number IBUs).

If I can't get one any thoughts on Magnum vs Nugget for bittering?

I'm going for ~90 in my second attempt. I went for ~60 in my first and it needs more, IMO. NB has a chart for the Hop Shot, how much to add for "x" IBU in "y" gravity. As for what to use in lieu of HS, I'd say FW with magnum, nugget or warrior also wouldn't be bad. I figured NB would be out of HopShots, they had six in the cooler a couple weeks ago and I bought 4 of them. They carry the smaller syringes, 5 ml, and you need more than that for the FWH on this bad boy.

 

[bottlebomber]

I've been getting my ducks in a row to do a HT clone the past few weeks.

1) Set up a fermentation temp control apparatus to give me consistent 60-62F temps.
2) Selecting hops- still a work in progress.
3) Obtained a can of HT, a flask, stirrer, etc for the Conan culture.

This may be a total noob question, but since I'm not doing AG yet, what extracts would you recommend to achieve the profile you guys are doing with the popular combo of Pearl and Munich? I'm doing a 5 gallon batch.

The best you'll be able to do is the Maris Otter LME that Northern Brewer now carries

 

[powermd]

I have been experimenting with dryhop amounts and single and multi-stage dryhopping for several basic DIPAs made from just with 2-row, 3% Carapils, and 3% C-40. Columbus, Simcoe, and Centennial were my hops for this general experiment. Rates as low as 0.75 oz dryhops per gallon up to 1.5 oz. dryhops per gallon were used. The batches were split into 1 gallon vessels to allow one version to be dryhopped for 8 days in a single stage, another to be dryhopped for 4 days in two stages, and another to be dryhopped for 12 days in 3 stages.

I applaud your scientific approach.

I know there's no perfect method, but when you say the best one from your study was dryhopped for 12 days in 3 stages, how was this done? Different hops for each stage? Or did you divide up your total dry hop additions and add an equal amount in each stage?

 

[powermd]

The best you'll be able to do is the Maris Otter LME that Northern Brewer now carries

I've decided to go with a partial mash and more or less follow FourSeasonsAngler's protocol with a few minor (I think) changes.

 

[EyePeeA]

when you say the best one from your study was dryhopped for 12 days in 3 stages, how was this done? Different hops for each stage? Or did you divide up your total dry hop additions and add an equal amount in each stage?

For this particular experiment, I used an even mix of the three hops I mentioned for the dryhop. So an equal amount of each was added at each stage. I would have personally preferred less Centennial since I desired less citrusy notes and more dank notes.

 

[HawksBrewer]

Harvested Conan on the stir plate as we speak. Started w/ 16oz at 1.020 and then stepped it up to a full liter at 1.020 last night. If all goes as planned it will be stepped up to a 1.5L 1.040 started before being pitched on a DIPA of sorts Saturday night. We're not doing a true Heady clone per se, but will be brewing up something similar w/ loads of late addition hops to see how it turns out. If it end up tasting close to heady I'll post the recipe.

 

[DNuggs]

Anybody checking the FG of your starters to confirm high attenuation? I repitched a frozen vial into a 300mL starter to wake things up and then into a 2L starter after crash cooling and decanting. The 2L starter went from 1.040 to 1.009 after 2 days. Sound about right?

 

[snail]

Instead of buying hop extract through Northern Brewer, save some money and buy a can of it here: http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/category_s/1851.htm

 

[libeerty]

Instead of buying hop extract through Northern Brewer, save some money and buy a can of it here: http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/category_s/1851.htm

This is interesting. Thanks for the link. The information is way above my head, though.. how much is in these cans versus in the syringes? And it says you have to use them in a few days once the can is open...

 

[snail]

I bought one a couple months ago. I still haven't gotten to use it yet. I found the can while I was read Scott's site http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/11/bulk-hop-extract.html. He got a 150g can according to his post but it equalled around 26 hop shots.

When you order a Hopshot from Northern Brewer, they must have the extract already packaged in syringes. I wonder if it's the same stuff.

 

[theveganbrewer]

My LHBS sells Hop Jizz by the vial and ships. They are very reliable. http://www.brewbrothers.biz/Hop-JuiceTM. In case you don't want to deal with a can.

 

[bottlebomber]

This is interesting. Thanks for the link. The information is way above my head, though.. how much is in these cans versus in the syringes? And it says you have to use them in a few days once the can is open...

I wouldn't personally buy crap from Yakima Valley Hops.. That guy is straight up dishonest, he poses on the forum as a "satisfied customer" when he actually is the business owner. The mods have tracked his IP# more than once and flagged his posts. TBH it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was him. I boycott them on principle after seeing some of the sheisty deeds.

 

[libeerty]

I wouldn't personally buy crap from Yakima Valley Hops.. That guy is straight up dishonest, he poses on the forum as a "satisfied customer" when he actually is the business owner. The mods have tracked his IP# more than once and flagged his posts. TBH it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was him. I boycott them on principle after seeing some of the sheisty deeds.

Oh man, is this the "Amarillo dust" guy?

 

[bottlebomber]

Oh man, is this the "Amarillo dust" guy?

Yep.

 

[theveganbrewer]

Here's a summary of what I learned over the last week:

Final gravity varies from 1.010 to 1.014 over the different generations of yeast.
The recipe is never changed.
There is caramalt in the recipe.
They blend 4 batches in each canning run.

So using this info, would the recipe be 1.074 or 1.070? If it's 1.070 to 1.010 and as yeast ages, the FG rises to 1.014. If it's 1.074, the stronger yeast takes it to 1.010 and then rises to 1.014. What seems more likely?

I did a side by side with two cans and the 1.010 was noticeably lighter in color than the 1.014 version. I think this probably fluctuates from 5.6-6.2 SRM.

I personally don't care for the taste of the 1.014 version. It really accentuated the caramalt and muted the hops.

Next question is, what kind of caramalt? There are quite a few different varieties, I've seen everything from 10 SRM to 35. Would it be wrong to assume he uses Thomas Fawcett Pearl and Caramalt?

 

[Coopertown]

So using this info, would the recipe be 1.074 or 1.070? If it's 1.070 to 1.010 and as yeast ages, the FG rises to 1.014. If it's 1.074, the stronger yeast takes it to 1.010 and then rises to 1.014. What seems more likely?

Nice sleuthing, Vegan.

Might he be using an OG that, with the average attenuation over the yeast's lifecycle, would result in the stated 8% ABV? This is the logic I tried to test in a post above.

Knowing they have +/- 0.3% ABV to play with without needing to change their packaging, they might have an OG of 1.073, which, with high attenuation (86.3%), would result in an FG of 1.010 (ABV=8.3%). With lower attenuation (80.8%), this would result in an FG of 1.014 (ABV=7.7%).

Would this make sense, or am I missing something?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Nice sleuthing, Vegan.

Might he be using an OG that, with the average attenuation over the yeast's lifecycle, would result in the stated 8% ABV? This is the logic I tried to test in a post above.

Knowing they have +/- 0.3% ABV to play with without needing to change their packaging, they might have an OG of 1.073, which, with high attenuation (86.3%), would result in an FG of 1.010 (ABV=8.3%). With lower attenuation (80.8%), this would result in an FG of 1.014 (ABV=7.7%).

Would this make sense, or am I missing something?

Seems plausible to me.

12 pounds of Pearl
12 ounces of Caramalt (crisp 17.5 SRM)
8 ounces of Dextrose

1.073 OG. 6 SRM.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Here's a summary of what I learned over the last week:...

Next question is, what kind of caramalt? There are quite a few different varieties, I've seen everything from 10 SRM to 35. Would it be wrong to assume he uses Thomas Fawcett Pearl and Caramalt?

I used carafoam on my last batch, gave it a subtle sweet character almost something like MO with a touch of sweetness. Used it because i had some left over after my zombie dust clone.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I used carafoam on my last batch, gave it a subtle sweet character almost something like MO with a touch of sweetness. Used it because i had some left over after my zombie dust clone.

That's another good question, is caramalt actually caramalt the product, or cara-something, like carafoam, carahell, caravienne, etc?

 

[mewithstewpid]

I wouldn't personally buy crap from Yakima Valley Hops.. That guy is straight up dishonest, he poses on the forum as a "satisfied customer" when he actually is the business owner. The mods have tracked his IP# more than once and flagged his posts. TBH it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was him. I boycott them on principle after seeing some of the sheisty deeds.

really! that's crazy. bought from them and was very satisfied.

 

[mewithstewpid]

Here's a summary of what I learned over the last week:


They blend 4 batches in each canning run.

this is very interesting.

Does this mean 4 batches brewed at 4 different times? or 4 fermenters all filled on the same day with the same wort, then brought back together for canning?

 

[geneticbiscuit]

They blend 4 batches in each canning run.

It would make the most sense to blend batches from different generations of the yeast equally spaced over the lifetime of it (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th if the yeast is good for 8 generations) to maintain consistency from canning run to canning run.

If this is the case, then you should be getting a mix of yeast generations in the can you propagate from, but after using several times it takes more of the character of the older generation batches. Not sure what the homebrewer can do to account for this other than to adjust the recipe slightly with each successive re-pitch (maybe mash slightly lower each time?)...

Then again, the blending might just be from tanks all fermented with the same generation...

 

[powermd]

I got my stir plate today and finally busted out the single can of HT I was lucky enough to obtain. I carefully sanitized the can, and set up my 1.02 wort starter in a sterile 2 L flask.

Until now I had never tried HT. I was attracted by everyone's tasting notes and the idea of this kind of IPA

I cracked open the can. The hoppy aromas were evident from a foot away. After pouring most into a pint glass, the last inch or so went into the flask.

I let my wife have the first taste.

Typical. "Eh, great beer!"

I took a deep nose full of the aromas... very similar to the last batch of extract IPA I made. I had dry hopped with 1 oz cascade and 1 oz galaxy for 7 days, and the aromas were very similar. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but I would say citrusy, honey like sweetness, but with a depth that defies words. It lights up the REWARD centers in my brain like mad.

I took my first mouthful. WOW. Now I see why this has inspired such a devoted following. The peachy notes were immediately apparent because it was such a different flavor from other IPAs. Layer upon layer of hops.. the depth is difficult to overstate. it tasted SO COMPLETE. Part of that seems to be the "dankness" everyone talks about. I had no idea what any of you meant by this until now. All I know is, I LIKE IT!

This was one life experience that truly lived up to the hype!

Now I just have to pray my culture takes.

 

[theveganbrewer]

this is very interesting.

Does this mean 4 batches brewed at 4 different times? or 4 fermenters all filled on the same day with the same wort, then brought back together for canning?

I'm not sure, not very familiar with commercial brewery setups. It used to be 2 batches blended, now it's 4 since they up'd production. They were a 3,000 barrel brewery and are 6,000 now and soon to be 9,000 I think.

I'd be interested in how the schedule would work, not for the clone per se, just for the fun of it. Anyone here know how it would work out, could you walk us through generation 1 to 20+ based on what we know? Two cannings a week, 2 tanks, 28 days brew to canning. 2 batches per run.

How often would they brew to get that much beer out?