Head retention, Bottles vs. Kegs

[mobrewdude]

Hey All!
I've been brewing for the last several years and, until recently, have been bottling all my batches. I recently started kegging and am noticing that I am not getting the head formation/retention from my faucet pours that I was previously getting from bottles. All the kegged beers are carbonated as usual but form very little head during the pour and only retain the head for a short time before the beer looks like a BMC pour. Serving pressures are between 10-12psi depending on the style and beer line lengths are about 10' of 3/16. Any suggestions or ideas on a remedy?

 

[LKABrewer]

How long has it been carbing?

 

[mobrewdude]

Most of the beers have been on gas with the 'set it and forget it' method for over a month. In drinking them they are definitely carbed to the same level as my ealier bottled versions of the same beers. Usually the first pour has a tiny amount of head formation and additional pours have almost none. Is it possible to have a line length that is too long? The pour isn't crazy-fast but easily fills a standard pint glass within 5 or 6 seconds.

 

[day_trippr]

Pouring a pint without excessive head in 5-6 seconds is pretty darned fast - that would rival if not beat a well-tuned commercial setup. So I would say your problem - if there actually is one - isn't related to your beer line length.

Some other factor must be at play. What temperature are you holding your keg at?

Cheers!

 

[mobrewdude]

I'll admit I didn't time it exactly but it's in that ballpark. I hold the kegs at 39F and they probably fluctuate a degree or so both directions. My other concern is when filling bottles for competition, which I plan to do a little more often. I have no difficulty filling cooled bottles with a standard growler-filler without much foam in the bottle but I'm concerned they won't pour with the appropriate head in styles meant to have head either.

 

[day_trippr]

Life is short. Some things are truly not worth worrying about. And gawd only knows how well any comp submission is treated...

Cheers!

 

[wickman6]

I'll admit I didn't time it exactly but it's in that ballpark. I hold the kegs at 39F and they probably fluctuate a degree or so both directions. My other concern is when filling bottles for competition, which I plan to do a little more often. I have no difficulty filling cooled bottles with a standard growler-filler without much foam in the bottle but I'm concerned they won't pour with the appropriate head in styles meant to have head either.

I've had occasions where I thought the kegged beer wasn't as heady as my bottled beer. Usually after a bit of time cold, in the keg they seem to come around. Doesn't sound like that's what your issue is though. Honestly, I can't help you with that.

I have bottled beer from the keg for competition, and I always get positive remarks regarding head retention and size. Hopefully you have the same success. One thing I always do is bottle an extra couple when I'm entering competition, then I crack those bottles open a few days or weeks later as a test. They always pour nicely.

I hope you get this figured out! I know a lot of folks say kegged or bottle conditioned doesn't make a difference as far as carbonation/head is concerned, but I tend to prefer bottle conditioned beer. I really feel its a smoother carbonation. Sometimes force carbed seems to have a sharp edge to it.

Have you considered priming your kegs, and conditioning like a bottle? I do it from time to time, and it seems like I do get a different result, if only slightly. Might be worth a shot.

Good luck!

 

[twitchster]

I actually did I search for this particular problem and this is the thread it brought me too. I'm also having this issue. Hopefully in reviving this thread, someone has found an answer while it was inactive. As OP stated, the first pour is better than the rest. I've force carbonated using the set it and forget method as well as using a carbonation lid. The first pour is almost always beautiful with about a one inch very creamy head. Anything after that, head is almost non existent. I can actually set the glass on the kegerator and pour straight into the bottom of the glass from a distance just to try and force a head and still nothing. I should also mention that I'm running 5' of 3/16" tubing with my thermostat set at 38 degrees with a +/-2 degree variance. Please help!

 

[Yooper]

I actually did I search for this particular problem and this is the thread it brought me too. I'm also having this issue. Hopefully in reviving this thread, someone has found an answer while it was inactive. As OP stated, the first pour is better than the rest. I've force carbonated using the set it and forget method as well as using a carbonation lid. The first pour is almost always beautiful with about a one inch very creamy head. Anything after that, head is almost non existent. I can actually set the glass on the kegerator and pour straight into the bottom of the glass from a distance just to try and force a head and still nothing. I should also mention that I'm running 5' of 3/16" tubing with my thermostat set at 38 degrees with a +/-2 degree variance. Please help!

If you run 10-12' lines, that should fix the problem. It seems like the short lines "knock out" suspended c02 in the beer, making it seem flat. If the first pour is nice, it's probably due to a warmer faucet on that first pour. This is of course assuming that your regulator is set appropriately, around 10-11 psi for 38 degrees.

 

[wolves63]

Same issues here, not sure what is causing it. I was in the same boat as the guy initially lines are great, I have great carbonation, just no head retention. A bit of an annoyance, although I will say that the cream ale that I just created had a great head, but it had been in the keg for about 6 weeks. So I don't know if I just need to wait longer or carb up higher initially.

 

[dnslater]

Many of us deal with the opposite issue - too much foam - so well done dialing in your system. If it is well-carbonated, could you simply hold your glass lower to cause more splashing at the end of your pour? This should knock more CO2 out of suspension and cause more foam. Are you in the 12-14 psi range?

I have a IPA at 13 psi at 38 degrees with 10' of line that is fairly foamy. In the same fridge I have a stout carbed to 8 psi per the style on a secondary regulator. It has almost no head, but this is likely due to the low carbonation.

 

[wolves63]

It isn't that I don't get foam from the initial, but that it fades significantly faster than bottled and I don't get the nice lacing. When I bottled, this was never an issue.

 

[Yooper]

It isn't that I don't get foam from the initial, but that it fades significantly faster than bottled and I don't get the nice lacing. When I bottled, this was never an issue.

That sounds like a glassware issue, and not a carbonation issue. Have you tried a "salt scrub" on your glass? If not, try that. Moisten the glass, and using table salt, sprinkle that on the inside and scrub it like scouring powder all over the inside of the glass, and around the rim. Then rinse well, and that will take off any soap or residue that interfere with lacing.

If the recipe is the same as before (head and foam retention are recipe related and technique related), the fact that one beer is bottled and one is kegged shouldn't make any difference unless the beer is undercarbed or overcarbed. Undercarbonation would definitely affect head and foam retention, and perhaps too-short lines would magnify that as the co2 in the beer would get knocked out of suspension without enough line restriction.

 

[dnslater]

Dishwasher rinse aid has been said to diminish head retention.

 

[wolves63]

Thanks, why would this be a problem only while kegging and not bottling though. I will try the salt scrub to see if that helps and I am sure that it will, but I am just confused as to why it would be different between a keg and a bottle.

 

[JuanMoore]

Thanks, why would this be a problem only while kegging and not bottling though. I will try the salt scrub to see if that helps and I am sure that it will, but I am just confused as to why it would be different between a keg and a bottle.

It shouldn't be any different if using the set and forget carbonation method. If you use the shake/roll the keg carb method, then that could be part of the issue, but even then it's usually a minimal difference. The main factors affecting head retention are recipe, carb level, and glassware.

Most of the time this issue turns out to be differing carbonation levels between the kegged and bottled beer, or a different recipe being used. How were you calculating the amount of priming sugar to use when bottling?

 

[Jupapabear]

Vigorous pours. Get some distance between the faucet and the glass. Or better yet, buy some glasses with nucleation points that help form the head. You want that co2 to burst out and create the head, and then settle into a creamy layer that lasts. A careful pour can't get the job done properly. At least that's what I got out of the pope of foam podcast from beersmith podcasts.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/09/28/head-retention-with-the-pope-of-foam-beersmith-podcast-23/

 

[shark_sandwich]

trying to figure this one out my self